Judaism = Zionism, huh?

[amity1844]

Someone made the astonishing claim, on an unrelated thread, that Judaism and Zionism are the same thing.

Hating Zionism is the same as Judaism.
If you oppose Zionism it means you reject the idea of Jews having a state, and therefor you reject the Jews, since the only way the Jews are to be able to survive is in Israel.

So I wanted to examine this proposition a bit by mentioning a very few of the many instances of Jews who have actively opposed Zionism in the past ....
and NOW!:

1919 - Congressman Julius Kahn presents an anti-zionist petition to Woodrow Wilson ahead of the Paris Peace Conference, including the statement

"…we protest against the political segregation of the Jews and the re-establishment in Palestine of a distinctively Jewish State as utterly opposed to the principles of democracy which it is the avowed purpose of the World’s Peace Conference to establish. Whether the Jews be regarded as a “race” or as a “religion,” it is contrary to the democratic principles for which the world war was waged to found a nation on either or both of these bases." The petition included signatures from over 300 prominent American Jews, including Henry Morgenthau, Sr. and Simon W. Rosendale[10]

1919 - Reichsbund jüdischer Frontsoldaten founded in Germany
1924 - Jacob Israël de Haan assassinated by Haganah for his anti-Zionist political activities
1935 - Louis Fles writes Godsdienst, openbare school en Zionisme
1936 - Victor Alter of the General Jewish Labour Bund in Poland labels Ze'ev Jabotinsky antisemitic, writing

"No, it is not we who are creating a sense of alienation between the Jewish masses and Poland; this is being attempted by those who have supported Jewish reaction wherever and whenever it occurs, who wish to turn the Jewish masses into a collective of fanatics who are alien to the ideology and struggles of Polish workers"[11]

1942 - American Council for Judaism founded
1943 - Orthodox Hungarian rabbi, Yissachar Shlomo Teichtal, originally opposed to Secular Zionism, publishes Eim HaBanim Semeicha in Budapest under Nazi persecution which strongly advocates, on a religious basis, the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine. He concluded that "Anti-Zionism was the root of evil befalling the Jewish people."[13]
1944 - Philosopher Hannah Arendt publishes Zionism Reconsidered:

"Only folly could dictate a policy which trusts a distant imperial power for protection, while alienating the goodwill of neighbours... If the Jewish commonwealth is obtained in the near future… it will be due to the political assistance of American Jews... But if the Jewish commonwealth is proclaimed against the will of the Arabs and without the support of the Mediterranean peoples, not only financial help but political support will be necessary for a long time to come. And that may turn out to be very troublesome indeed for Jews in this country, who after all have no power to direct the political destinies of the Near East."

1945 - Elmer Berger publishes The Jewish Dilemma, which argued that Zionism was a surrender to the racial myths about the Jews and that assimilationism was still the best path for the Jews in the modern world
1946 - The Jewish Anti-Zionist League founded in Egypt
1946 - Isaac Isaacs publishes "Palestine: Peace and Prosperity or War and Destruction? Political Zionism: Undemocratic, Unjust, Dangerous"
1953 - Alfred Lilienthal publishes What Price Israel?
1961 - Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum, leader of the Satmar Hasidim, publishes Vayoel Moshe, a robust castigation of Zionism, in which he blames the Holocaust on the "idolatry of Zionism".[13]
1962 - Matzpen organisation founded in Israel
1965 - Moshe Menuhin publishes Decadence of Judaism in our Time
1967 - Maxime Rodinson publishes "Israel, fait colonial" in Jean-Paul Sartre's journal, Les Temps Modernes
1968 - Elmer Berger founds the American Jewish Alternatives to Zionism (AJAZ)
1970 - Ma'avak party founded
1972 - Aki Orr publishes The Other Israel: the Radical Case against Zionism
1973 - Trial of Revolutionary Communist alliance - Red Front members including Daud Turki, Udi Adiv and Dan Vered
1980 - Naeim Giladi writes Ben Gurion's Scandals: How the Haganah and the Mossad Eliminated Jews
1983 - Noam Chomsky writes The Fateful Triangle
1983 - The USSR founds the Anti-Zionist Committee of the Soviet Public, headed by David Dragunsky
1984 - Uri Davis joins Fatah
1984 - Alternative Information Center founded
1988 - Ella Shohat publishes Sephardim in Israel: Zionism from the Standpoint of Its Jewish Victims[15][16]
1989 - Marc H. Ellis writes The Future of Dissent: a Reflection on What Shall I Do With This People? Jews and the Fractious Politics of Judaism
1990 - Thomas A. Kolsky writes Jews Against Zionism
1990 - Lenni Brenner and Stokely Carmichael found the Committee against Zionism and Racism
1994 - Israel Shahak writes Jewish History, Jewish Religion: the Weight of Three Thousand Years
2000 - Norman Finkelstein publishes The Holocaust Industry
2005 - Michael Neumann writes The Case Against Israel
2006 - Yakov M. Rabkin publishes A Threat from Within: a Century of Jewish Opposition to Zionism
2006 - Mondoweiss website launched
2006 - Ilan Pappé writes The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine
2008 - Shlomo Sand publishes The Invention of the Jewish People
2008 - International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network founded
2010 - Former BBC and ITN journalist Alan Hart publishes Zionism: The Real Enemy of the Jews
2011 - Gilad Atzmon publishes The Wandering Who?

This info is gleaned from the Wikipedia article on anti-Zionism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Zionism

By the way, here is a favorite quote, which is not from a Jew:
1938 - Mahatma Gandhi writes "The Jews In Palestine", in which he states:

"Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French. It is wrong and inhuman to impose the Jews on the Arabs.... The Palestine of the Biblical conception is not a geographical tract. It is in their hearts....Let the Jews who claim to be the chosen race prove their title by choosing the way of non-violence for vindicating their position on earth. Every country is their home, including Palestine, not by aggression but by loving service"[12]

 

[Sally]

Someone made the astonishing claim, on an unrelated thread, that Judaism and Zionism are the same thing.

I wanted to examine this proposition a bit by mentioning a very few of the many instances of Jews opposing Zionism in the past .... and NOW!:


1919 - Congressman Julius Kahn presents an anti-zionist petition to Woodrow Wilson ahead of the Paris Peace Conference, including the statement

"…we protest against the political segregation of the Jews and the re-establishment in Palestine of a distinctively Jewish State as utterly opposed to the principles of democracy which it is the avowed purpose of the World’s Peace Conference to establish. Whether the Jews be regarded as a “race” or as a “religion,” it is contrary to the democratic principles for which the world war was waged to found a nation on either or both of these bases." The petition included signatures from over 300 prominent American Jews, including Henry Morgenthau, Sr. and Simon W. Rosendale[10]

1919 - Reichsbund jüdischer Frontsoldaten founded in Germany
1924 - Jacob Israël de Haan assassinated by Haganah for his anti-Zionist political activities
1935 - Louis Fles writes Godsdienst, openbare school en Zionisme
1936 - Victor Alter of the General Jewish Labour Bund in Poland labels Ze'ev Jabotinsky antisemitic, writing

"No, it is not we who are creating a sense of alienation between the Jewish masses and Poland; this is being attempted by those who have supported Jewish reaction wherever and whenever it occurs, who wish to turn the Jewish masses into a collective of fanatics who are alien to the ideology and struggles of Polish workers"[11]

1938 - Mahatma Gandhi writes "The Jews In Palestine", in which he states:

"Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French. It is wrong and inhuman to impose the Jews on the Arabs.... The Palestine of the Biblical conception is not a geographical tract. It is in their hearts....Let the Jews who claim to be the chosen race prove their title by choosing the way of non-violence for vindicating their position on earth. Every country is their home, including Palestine, not by aggression but by loving service"[12]

1942 - American Council for Judaism founded
1943 - Orthodox Hungarian rabbi, Yissachar Shlomo Teichtal, originally opposed to Secular Zionism, publishes Eim HaBanim Semeicha in Budapest under Nazi persecution which strongly advocates, on a religious basis, the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine. He concluded that "Anti-Zionism was the root of evil befalling the Jewish people."[13]
1944 - Philosopher Hannah Arendt publishes Zionism Reconsidered:

1944 - Philosopher Hannah Arendt publishes Zionism Reconsidered, writing "Only folly could dictate a policy which trusts a distant imperial power for protection, while alienating the goodwill of neighbours... If the Jewish commonwealth is obtained in the near future… it will be due to the political assistance of American Jews... But if the Jewish commonwealth is proclaimed against the will of the Arabs and without the support of the Mediterranean peoples, not only financial help but political support will be necessary for a long time to come. And that may turn out to be very troublesome indeed for Jews in this country, who after all have no power to direct the political destinies of the Near East."

1945 - Elmer Berger publishes The Jewish Dilemma, which argued that Zionism was a surrender to the racial myths about the Jews and that assimilationism was still the best path for the Jews in the modern world
1946 - The Jewish Anti-Zionist League founded in Egypt
1946 - Isaac Isaacs publishes "Palestine: Peace and Prosperity or War and Destruction? Political Zionism: Undemocratic, Unjust, Dangerous"
1953 - Alfred Lilienthal publishes What Price Israel?
1961 - Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum, leader of the Satmar Hasidim, publishes Vayoel Moshe, a robust castigation of Zionism, in which he blames the Holocaust on the "idolatry of Zionism".[13]
1962 - Matzpen organisation founded in Israel
1965 - Moshe Menuhin publishes Decadence of Judaism in our Time
1967 - Maxime Rodinson publishes "Israel, fait colonial" in Jean-Paul Sartre's journal, Les Temps Modernes
1968 - Elmer Berger founds the American Jewish Alternatives to Zionism (AJAZ)
1970 - Ma'avak party founded
1972 - Aki Orr publishes The Other Israel: the Radical Case against Zionism
1973 - Trial of Revolutionary Communist alliance - Red Front members including Daud Turki, Udi Adiv and Dan Vered
1980 - Naeim Giladi writes Ben Gurion's Scandals: How the Haganah and the Mossad Eliminated Jews
1983 - Noam Chomsky writes The Fateful Triangle
1983 - The USSR founds the Anti-Zionist Committee of the Soviet Public, headed by David Dragunsky
1984 - Uri Davis joins Fatah
1984 - Alternative Information Center founded
1988 - Ella Shohat publishes Sephardim in Israel: Zionism from the Standpoint of Its Jewish Victims[15][16]
1989 - Marc H. Ellis writes The Future of Dissent: a Reflection on What Shall I Do With This People? Jews and the Fractious Politics of Judaism
1990 - Thomas A. Kolsky writes Jews Against Zionism
1990 - Lenni Brenner and Stokely Carmichael found the Committee against Zionism and Racism

1994 to present
1994 - Israel Shahak writes Jewish History, Jewish Religion: the Weight of Three Thousand Years
2000 - Norman Finkelstein publishes The Holocaust Industry
2001 - Israel and the United States pull out of the World Conference against Racism 2001, also known as Durban I
2005 - Michael Neumann writes The Case Against Israel
2006 - Yakov M. Rabkin publishes A Threat from Within: a Century of Jewish Opposition to Zionism
2006 - Mondoweiss website launched
2006 - Ilan Pappé writes The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine
2008 - Shlomo Sand publishes The Invention of the Jewish People
2008 - International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network founded
2010 - Former BBC and ITN journalist Alan Hart publishes Zionism: The Real Enemy of the Jews
2011 - Gilad Atzmon publishes The Wandering Who?

This info is gleaned from the Wikipedia article on anti-Zionism:
Anti-Zionism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's a shame that Martin Luther King Jr. is not alive and he would give you his views on this since he would certainly disagree with you. I think that the viewers with even any little intelligence realize that when many of the posters speak up against Israel and Zionism, they actually don't care about the Arabs but are using the Arabs as pawns against those they hate or use as scapegoats for their own failures in life. In a way, it is amusing to see them playing "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" game on a forum.

 

[amity1844]

Sally, omigosh, you mean all these anti-Zionist Jews are .... are ...

Anti-Semites?

 

[Sally]

Sally, omigosh, you mean all these anti-Zionist Jews are .... are ...

Anti-Semites?

So many of them are, Amity. You ever hear of self-hating Jews or Leftist Jews? Are you actually trying to convince us that so many of the anti-Semites on these forums actually care about the Arabs? If you do, I have a bridge to sell you.

 

[amity1844]

Sally, omigosh, you mean all these anti-Zionist Jews are .... are ...

Anti-Semites?

So many of them are, Amity. You ever hear of self-hating Jews or Leftist Jews? Are you actually trying to convince us that so many of the anti-Semites on these forums actually care about the Arabs? If you do, I have a bridge to sell you.

Sally, you now have at least a couple of dozen sources which, if you will only read them, can keep you from embarrassing yourself like this in the future.

Some are leftist, but most aren't. Many are/were religious Jews who oppose Israel on religious grounds.

 

[Sally]

Sally, omigosh, you mean all these anti-Zionist Jews are .... are ...

Anti-Semites?

So many of them are, Amity. You ever hear of self-hating Jews or Leftist Jews? Are you actually trying to convince us that so many of the anti-Semites on these forums actually care about the Arabs? If you do, I have a bridge to sell you.

Sally, you now have at least a couple of dozen sources which, if you will only read them, can keep you from embarrassing yourself like this in the future.

Some are leftist, but most aren't. Many are/were religious Jews who oppose Israel on religious grounds.

Most all Jews and millions and millions of Christians are Zionists. Those very religious Jews are probably the ones who are one of the favorite Jews of the NeoNazi/Islamofascist hate sites. We know all about those crazy religious Jews who visit their crazy Ayatollah friends in Iran. While these particular Jews believe that there should be no state of Israel until the Messiah arrives, many have no problems at all living in Israel. We all are aware that this bunch of Jews is very small in number, and most of us would have never heard of these Jews if people didn't drag them up from some hate site. However, Amity, if you take the time to patiently grow a beard, you will fit right in when they take you with them when they next make a trip to visit their crazy friends in Iran.

 

[amity1844]

You're still embarrassing yourself, Sally.
Check them out.

 

[Sally]

You're still embarrassing yourself, Sally.
Check them out.

I would say you are embarrassing yourself, Amity. People are aware of what is going on and how people think in the world, regardless if you post a gazillions sites. Keep at it, though, because you do try so hard even though the viewers as a whole are smart enough to see right through you.

 

[Lipush]

Sally, omigosh, you mean all these anti-Zionist Jews are .... are ...

Anti-Semites?

Useful idiots may be a better suiting term

 

[toastman]

Sally, omigosh, you mean all these anti-Zionist Jews are .... are ...

Anti-Semites?

Gilad Atzmon, the last one on that list, has been accused of anti Semitism, even though he is Jewish. He is a MASSIVE scumbag.


"Atzmon has defined himself variously as a "secular Jew",[3] a "proud self-hating Jew",[50][51] an "ex-Jew"[52] "a Jew who hates Judaism"[53][54] and "a Hebrew-speaking Palestinian.

'Atzmon has compared the Jewish Ideology to that of the Nazis.'

Gilad Atzmon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Lipush]

Sally, omigosh, you mean all these anti-Zionist Jews are .... are ...

Anti-Semites?

Gilad Atzmon, the last one on that list, has been accused of anti Semitism, even though he is Jewish. He is a MASSIVE scumbag.


"Atzmon has defined himself variously as a "secular Jew",[3] a "proud self-hating Jew",[50][51] an "ex-Jew"[52] "a Jew who hates Judaism"[53][54] and "a Hebrew-speaking Palestinian.

'Atzmon has compared the Jewish Ideology to that of the Nazis.'

Gilad Atzmon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A meshugener.

 

[Roudy]

I don't see anything in the terrorist ass lickers post about Judaism that proves it's not "Zionist".

 

[MHunterB]

Hadassah is just ONE Zionist women's organization: there are about 330,000 members in the US. Of course not all Hadassah women are Jewish: Tipper Gore joined, too. And I don't happen to know how many 'associates' ('men's auxiliary) there are.

A few dozen or hundred loud-mouthed "activists" from among the extreme fringe groups is hardly impressive. They only *seem* important to themselves, and the rest of the wingnut blogosphere.

 

[Indeependent]

Many of those religious Jews and/or Jewish organizations oppose the existence of Israel as a SECULAR or DEMOCRATIC nation.
But that would require Amity, the Cambridge University prodigy, to actually read an entire article.
Fascinating, isn't it, the Jewish Jews you reference want a JEWISH state run by religious authorities who would have expelled every Arab back in 1948.

Oh, I forget...Amity, ...you're an idiot.

 

[MHunterB]

How many feeding centers for the hungry have those fine 'anti-Zionist' folks put up to help the hungry among Palestinians?

How many medical centers have they set up?

How many trees have they planted in the waste lands?

And how many scholarships and sponsorships have they provided for Palestinian children and youth to have a greater opportunity to learn?

What DO all those wonderful 'anti-Zionists' do that is directly FOR anyone or anything???? Just how are they improving the world?

 

[proudveteran06]

Sally, omigosh, you mean all these anti-Zionist Jews are .... are ...

Anti-Semites?

So many of them are, Amity. You ever hear of self-hating Jews or Leftist Jews? Are you actually trying to convince us that so many of the anti-Semites on these forums actually care about the Arabs? If you do, I have a bridge to sell you.

Sally,

Why even bother with her? My question is very simple; Regardless of what Left Wingers write what is wrong with the Jewish People having a State? Why should there be a " Palestinian State?" It's that simple

 

[MHunterB]

Zionism has 'always' been a part of normative and mainstream Judaism - at least it has since the Babylonian exile.

Using extremist groups to MISrepresent the mainstream is about as sleazy as it gets. But that's exactly the game Hostility is trying to play here. Any fraction of Judaism which claims to be practicing the 'one true way' to be Jewish is automatically wrong, as even a cursory glance at the Torah and Talmud would confirm. The NK are fanatic extremists, and basically a cult: they're like the Jehovah Witnesses of Judaism.....

As for the other extreme: anyone calling themselves an 'anti-(whatever)' and a 'proud ex-(whatever)' is suspect to being very biased against that 'whatever' - kind of like the 'ex' Catholics who become flaming fundy Protestants.

I guess this ticks off folks like Hostility, who believe that they are obviously superior individuals and so ought to make the rules for others - but Jews decide who is a Jew and what is Judaism. Actual Jews-practicing-Judaism, not the 'ex' Jews or the 'anti' Jews......

Of course observations by thoughtful non-hostile nonJews are always welcome. But then Hostility doesn't qualify in either case.

 

[MHunterB]

Zionism has 'always' been a part of normative and mainstream Judaism - at least it has since the Babylonian exile.

Using extremist groups to MISrepresent the mainstream is about as sleazy as it gets. But that's exactly the game Hostility is trying to play here. Any fraction of Judaism which claims to be practicing the 'one true way' to be Jewish is automatically wrong, as even a cursory glance at the Torah and Talmud would confirm. The NK are fanatic extremists, and basically a cult: they're like the Jehovah Witnesses of Judaism.....

As for the other extreme: anyone calling themselves an 'anti-(whatever)' and a 'proud ex-(whatever)' is suspect to being very biased against that 'whatever' - kind of like the 'ex' Catholics who become flaming fundy Protestants.

I guess this ticks off folks like Hostility, who believe that they are obviously superior individuals and so ought to make the rules for others - but Jews decide who is a Jew and what is Judaism. Actual Jews-practicing-Judaism, not the 'ex' Jews or the 'anti' Jews......

Of course observations by thoughtful non-hostile nonJews are always welcome. But then Hostility doesn't qualify in either case.

Since you felt compelled to neg me for the above post, PW - why don't you explain to everyone what I posted above which is inaccurate? And please do give some citations for your assertions. I'd also like to know what kind of background you've got in Jewish studies.....

 

[flacaltenn]

Moderation Message:

Started out fine. When you post in a
Zone2 thread -- you resolve to contribute to the
topic. Not arrive to start a brawl.

Thread will reopen shortly.

FlaCalTenn

 

[dilloduck]

Zionism wasn't even a word until 1890. Babylonia ??