ISA Arrests Terrorist Sniper Trying Use Humanitarian Permit to Attack IDF Soldiers

[pbel]

How do you conceive of ANY society without politics? Politics are essential in societies, primative and modern.

I said: Religion and Politics don't mix in modern societies...Religion is based on Myths, Politics are based on reality.

So you are an atheist then?

I really don't think Religion or lack of it should be an issue on these boards...in jest to you, I'll ask you a question; 20% of Israeli citizens declare themselves atheists in the Jewish State; are they Israeli citizens?

Now I hope you see the absurdity of mixing Religion and Politics...the separation of Church and State is essential in modern society.

 

[pbel]

P F Tinmore, et al,

The reason that there has never been an agreement between the Palestinians and the Israelis is that, the Palestinians were NOT a sovereign entity having the authority to enter into international agreement concluded between States.

That is not possible. There has never been an agreement between Israel and Palestine over borders. Israel has no borders.

(COMMENT)

There has not been any recognized nation or state called Palestine in the region since the Ottomans took control and sovereignty (800 years ago). Any territory called Palestine in the 20th Century, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers of the day, refers to territory under Mandate (ie Mandate of Palestine) and not a sovereign nation. It was at the discretion of the Allied Powers as to what territory was were assigned to what Mandatory. In the early 20th Century, the indigenous population within the assigned Mandate (of Palestine) territory had no political authority over the territory.

The State of Israel HAD boundaries (as outlined in Part II Boundaries Section B Jewish State), on the implementation on Mid-night between 14/15 May 1948. However the immediate attack by Armies of the Arab League was with the intent to undermine the implementation.

More important still, Arab elements, both inside and outside of Palestine, have exerted organized, intensive effort toward defeating the purposes of the resolution of the General Assembly. To this end, threats, acts of violence and infiltration of organized, armed, uniformed Arab bands into Palestinian territory have been employed. As early as 16 February, the Commission, in its first Special Report to the Security Council, stated that “powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, are defying the resolution of the General Assembly and are engaged in a deliberate effort to alter by force the settlement envisaged therein”.

SOURCE: A/532 10 April 1948

Obviously, the Arab League strategy failed. Egypt was able to occupy by force, the Gaza Strip (denying the Palestinians the right of self-determination) and Jordan was able to occupy and annex the West Bank (denying the Palestinians the right of self-determination). The "right of self-determination was never an Arab issue until the outcome of the 1967 War was decided. The overall intent was unmistaken: the deliberate effort to alter by force the implementation of the Resolution.


(COMMENT)

This statement is taken out of time context. In 1948, there was no State of Palestine to negotiate with, and the Palestinians had no competent authority or legal standing as a sovereign power. Similarly, in 1967, there was no State of Palestine to negotiate with, and the Palestinians had no competent authority or legal standing as a sovereign power. Both Gaza and the West Bank had been occupied by Arab Powers and under external Arab Control. In fact, the West Bank was annexed by Jordan on April 24, 1950. What you call "Palestinians" were actually Jordanians until 31 July, 1988, ceded its claims to the West Bank (called the "dismantlement").

Jordan, dear brothers, has not nor will it give up its support and assistance to the Palestinian people, until they achieve their national goals, God willing. No one outside Palestine has had, nor can have, an attachment to Palestine, or its cause, firmer than that of Jordan or of my family. Moreover, Jordan is a confrontation state, whose borders with Israel are longer than those of any other Arab state, longer even than the combined borders of the West Bank and Gaza with Israel.

In addition, Jordan will not give up its commitment to take part in the peace process. We have contributed to the peace process until it reached the stage of a consensus to convene an international peace conference on the Middle East. The purpose of the conference would be to achieve a just and comprehensive peace settlement to the Arab Israeli conflict, and the settlement of the Palestinian problem in all its aspects. We have defined our position in this regard, as everybody knows, through the six principles which we have already made public.

Jordan, dear brothers, is a principal party to the Arab-Israeli conflict, and to the peace process. It shoulders its national responsibilities on that basis.

SOURCE: Address to the Nation

Three and a half months later, the PLO as the "sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people" --- as decreed by the 1974 Arab League Summit in Rabat --- Declared Independence over the Gaza Strip and the former Jordanian annexed territory of the West Bank.

And in light of the victories achieved by Palestinian struggle in the confrontation with the Zionist enemy, at the Arab and international levels, at the United Nations, and of the obligation imposed thereby to continue joint Arab action to develop and increase the scope of these victories ; and having received the views of all on all the above, and having succeeded in cooling the differences between brethren within the framework of consolidating Arab solidarity, the Seventh Arab Summit Conference resolves the following:

1. To affirm the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination and to return to their homeland;

2. To affirm the right of the Palestinian people to establish an independent national authority under the command of the Palestine Liberation Organization, the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people in any Palestinian territory that is liberated. This authority, once it is established, shall enjoy the support of the Arab states in all fields and at all levels;

3. To support the Palestine Liberation Organization in the exercise of its responsibility at the national and international levels within the framework of Arab commitment;

4. To call on the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, the Syrian Arab Republic, the Arab Republic of Egypt and the Palestine Liberation Organization to devise a formula for the regulation of relations between them in the light of these decisions so as to ensure their implementation;

5. That all the Arab states undertake to defend Palestinian national unity and not to interfere in the internal affairs of Palestinian action.​

SOURCE: League of Arab States (LAS) 28 October 1974 Seventh Arab League Summit

Most Respectfully,
R

I don't know why everyone ignores the fact that in 2012, the UN, by a very large margin recognized the State of Palestine to the 67 borders as a observer State...I don't see this Status being reduced and believe full recognition will follow. Also this recognition has the force of International Law...Sure Israel will ignore it and the world Boycott of any goods made in the occupation areas will quickly expand...

Of course the Palestinians can negotiate if it wishes, but the UN's die has been cast!

 

[RoccoR]

pbel, et al,

It is a timeline issue again.

I don't know why everyone ignores the fact that in 2012, the UN, by a very large margin recognized the State of Palestine to the 67 borders as a observer State...I don't see this Status being reduced and believe full recognition will follow. Also this recognition has the force of International Law...Sure Israel will ignore it and the world Boycott of any goods made in the occupation areas will quickly expand...

Of course the Palestinians can negotiate if it wishes, but the UN's die has been cast!

(COMMENT)

Of course A/RES/67/19 4 December 2012, indicates Palestine could open negotiations. But the State of Palestine could have begun negotiations at any point after A/RES/43/177 15 December 1988.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Kondor3]

"...I don't know why everyone ignores the fact that in 2012, the UN, by a very large margin recognized the State of Palestine to the 67 borders as a observer State..."

Probably because it has little basis in Reality.

"...I don't see this Status being reduced and believe full recognition will follow..."

Full recognition (membership) cannot occur without the approval of the Security Council and I don't see a Palestinian Membership Bid being approved by the US, with its veto, for a very long time, if ever; not even during the remaining three years of the Obama Administration.

"...Also this recognition has the force of International Law..."

"Mister Marshall has made his decision. Now let him enforce it." - apocryphally attributed to US President Andrew Jackson

"...Sure Israel will ignore it and the world Boycott of any goods made in the occupation areas will quickly expand..."

No problem.

All Israeli export industry gets moved outside the West Bank; leaving only internal-consumption industry and agriculture in the West Bank, and, of course, more room to build settlements, which don't export anything to boycott.

And, of course, any substantive harm to Israel, resulting from such boycott(s), will be made-good by the United States, utilizing your taxpayer money.

"...Of course the Palestinians can negotiate if it wishes, but the UN's die has been cast!"

I'm sure that the UN General Assembly has accorded observer or provisional status to a number of failed-states and state-wannabes since 1945, complete with high-sounding objectives and calls for action, and I'm equally confident that most fizzled-out quickly enough due to changing conditions of one kind or another.

It's been a year or more already, and the UN (a.k.a. Toothless Old Lady's Debating Society) has done nothing to alter that status nor to accord any substantive nation-birthing help to them.

Just as the Dicken's character 'Scrooge' speculated that the ghost of Jacob Marley was 'more gravy than grave'... so, too, there is 'more Charmin than charter' to be seen in that Resolution.

You seem to place far more stock in such UN meanderings and pontifications than many practical folk are willing to extend to them.

 

[MHunterB]

I said: Religion and Politics don't mix in modern societies...Religion is based on Myths, Politics are based on reality.

So you are an atheist then?

I really don't think Religion or lack of it should be an issue on these boards...in jest to you, I'll ask you a question; 20% of Israeli citizens declare themselves atheists in the Jewish State; are they Israeli citizens?

Now I hope you see the absurdity of mixing Religion and Politics...the separation of Church and State is essential in modern society.

I was actually asking about your bold statement: you appeared to be speaking from an atheist perspective.

Incidentally, I think the latter half of that bolded pronouncement of yours is more inaccurate than the first. The 'politics' of racist ideology, for example, is hardly based on facts. Nor is the politics of fascism, or of communism. Nor that of denial of androgenic global warming.....

 

[P F Tinmore]

Holy verbosity, Batman!

P F Tinmore, et al,

The reason that there has never been an agreement between the Palestinians and the Israelis is that, the Palestinians were NOT a sovereign entity having the authority to enter into international agreement concluded between States.

It is illegal to annex territory that you occupy. No change in borders (that would annex land to Israel) can take place until the occupation ends.

That is not possible. There has never been an agreement between Israel and Palestine over borders. Israel has no borders.

(COMMENT)

There has not been any recognized nation or state called Palestine in the region since the Ottomans took control and sovereignty (800 years ago). Any territory called Palestine in the 20th Century, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers of the day, refers to territory under Mandate (ie Mandate of Palestine) and not a sovereign nation. It was at the discretion of the Allied Powers as to what territory was were assigned to what Mandatory. In the early 20th Century, the indigenous population within the assigned Mandate (of Palestine) territory had no political authority over the territory.

You must have missed my post showing that Palestine had international borders, nationality, and citizens before the inception of the mandate. Who had sovereignty?

The State of Israel HAD boundaries (as outlined in Part II Boundaries Section B Jewish State), on the implementation on Mid-night between 14/15 May 1948. However the immediate attack by Armies of the Arab League was with the intent to undermine the implementation.

That is not true. Israel never claimed or recognized those borders.

More important still, Arab elements, both inside and outside of Palestine, have exerted organized, intensive effort toward defeating the purposes of the resolution of the General Assembly. To this end, threats, acts of violence and infiltration of organized, armed, uniformed Arab bands into Palestinian territory have been employed. As early as 16 February, the Commission, in its first Special Report to the Security Council, stated that “powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, are defying the resolution of the General Assembly and are engaged in a deliberate effort to alter by force the settlement envisaged therein”.

SOURCE: A/532 10 April 1948

Obviously, the Arab League strategy failed. Egypt was able to occupy by force, the Gaza Strip (denying the Palestinians the right of self-determination) and Jordan was able to occupy and annex the West Bank (denying the Palestinians the right of self-determination). The "right of self-determination was never an Arab issue until the outcome of the 1967 War was decided. The overall intent was unmistaken: the deliberate effort to alter by force the implementation of the Resolution.


(COMMENT)

This statement is taken out of time context. In 1948, there was no State of Palestine to negotiate with, and the Palestinians had no competent authority or legal standing as a sovereign power. Similarly, in 1967, there was no State of Palestine to negotiate with, and the Palestinians had no competent authority or legal standing as a sovereign power. Both Gaza and the West Bank had been occupied by Arab Powers and under external Arab Control. In fact, the West Bank was annexed by Jordan on April 24, 1950. What you call "Palestinians" were actually Jordanians until 31 July, 1988, ceded its claims to the West Bank (called the "dismantlement").

Jordan, dear brothers, has not nor will it give up its support and assistance to the Palestinian people, until they achieve their national goals, God willing. No one outside Palestine has had, nor can have, an attachment to Palestine, or its cause, firmer than that of Jordan or of my family. Moreover, Jordan is a confrontation state, whose borders with Israel are longer than those of any other Arab state, longer even than the combined borders of the West Bank and Gaza with Israel.

In addition, Jordan will not give up its commitment to take part in the peace process. We have contributed to the peace process until it reached the stage of a consensus to convene an international peace conference on the Middle East. The purpose of the conference would be to achieve a just and comprehensive peace settlement to the Arab Israeli conflict, and the settlement of the Palestinian problem in all its aspects. We have defined our position in this regard, as everybody knows, through the six principles which we have already made public.

Jordan, dear brothers, is a principal party to the Arab-Israeli conflict, and to the peace process. It shoulders its national responsibilities on that basis.

SOURCE: Address to the Nation

Three and a half months later, the PLO as the "sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people" --- as decreed by the 1974 Arab League Summit in Rabat --- Declared Independence over the Gaza Strip and the former Jordanian annexed territory of the West Bank.

And in light of the victories achieved by Palestinian struggle in the confrontation with the Zionist enemy, at the Arab and international levels, at the United Nations, and of the obligation imposed thereby to continue joint Arab action to develop and increase the scope of these victories ; and having received the views of all on all the above, and having succeeded in cooling the differences between brethren within the framework of consolidating Arab solidarity, the Seventh Arab Summit Conference resolves the following:

1. To affirm the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination and to return to their homeland;

2. To affirm the right of the Palestinian people to establish an independent national authority under the command of the Palestine Liberation Organization, the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people in any Palestinian territory that is liberated. This authority, once it is established, shall enjoy the support of the Arab states in all fields and at all levels;

3. To support the Palestine Liberation Organization in the exercise of its responsibility at the national and international levels within the framework of Arab commitment;

4. To call on the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, the Syrian Arab Republic, the Arab Republic of Egypt and the Palestine Liberation Organization to devise a formula for the regulation of relations between them in the light of these decisions so as to ensure their implementation;

5. That all the Arab states undertake to defend Palestinian national unity and not to interfere in the internal affairs of Palestinian action.​

SOURCE: League of Arab States (LAS) 28 October 1974 Seventh Arab League Summit

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Phoenall]

Where are those borders mentioned in resolution 242? Quote the passage.

The map I posted is from a 1946 survey. The borders are valid, Example:

There are no borders mentioned in UN res 242, as there are none. The map you produced does not set out any borders at all just the proposal of the UN regarding Israel.

Not true. My map definitely spells out the international borders of Palestine. Inside of Palestine there are lines defining the proposed borders of Israel that were never implemented.

My post of the 1949 armistice agreement confirms that Palestine's borders were still valid in 1949.

The map I produced shows the British mandate of Palestine and how it agreed with the local arabs/muslims the new state of Israel.

The British Mandate is irrelevant to this issue. Palestine's international borders were already in place before the beginning of the mandate and were still there after the mandate left. Britain never annexed or otherwise claimed ownership of Palestine.

Just as it shows trans Jordan as part of the plan. Now come up with one map or agreement after 1919 that sets out the agreed and final borders of Israel and Palestine that is undisputedby all nations.

That is not possible. There has never been an agreement between Israel and Palestine over borders. Israel has no borders.

The border agreement is a final status issue in the current negotiations.

So you finally admit that Palestine has no actual international borders, and that you have LIED all along about them being present.

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

The reason that there has never been an agreement between the Palestinians and the Israelis is that, the Palestinians were NOT a sovereign entity having the authority to enter into international agreement concluded between States.

That is not possible. There has never been an agreement between Israel and Palestine over borders. Israel has no borders.

(COMMENT)

There has not been any recognized nation or state called Palestine in the region since the Ottomans took control and sovereignty (800 years ago). Any territory called Palestine in the 20th Century, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers of the day, refers to territory under Mandate (ie Mandate of Palestine) and not a sovereign nation. It was at the discretion of the Allied Powers as to what territory was were assigned to what Mandatory. In the early 20th Century, the indigenous population within the assigned Mandate (of Palestine) territory had no political authority over the territory.

The State of Israel HAD boundaries (as outlined in Part II Boundaries Section B Jewish State), on the implementation on Mid-night between 14/15 May 1948. However the immediate attack by Armies of the Arab League was with the intent to undermine the implementation.



Obviously, the Arab League strategy failed. Egypt was able to occupy by force, the Gaza Strip (denying the Palestinians the right of self-determination) and Jordan was able to occupy and annex the West Bank (denying the Palestinians the right of self-determination). The "right of self-determination was never an Arab issue until the outcome of the 1967 War was decided. The overall intent was unmistaken: the deliberate effort to alter by force the implementation of the Resolution.


(COMMENT)

This statement is taken out of time context. In 1948, there was no State of Palestine to negotiate with, and the Palestinians had no competent authority or legal standing as a sovereign power. Similarly, in 1967, there was no State of Palestine to negotiate with, and the Palestinians had no competent authority or legal standing as a sovereign power. Both Gaza and the West Bank had been occupied by Arab Powers and under external Arab Control. In fact, the West Bank was annexed by Jordan on April 24, 1950. What you call "Palestinians" were actually Jordanians until 31 July, 1988, ceded its claims to the West Bank (called the "dismantlement").



Three and a half months later, the PLO as the "sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people" --- as decreed by the 1974 Arab League Summit in Rabat --- Declared Independence over the Gaza Strip and the former Jordanian annexed territory of the West Bank.

And in light of the victories achieved by Palestinian struggle in the confrontation with the Zionist enemy, at the Arab and international levels, at the United Nations, and of the obligation imposed thereby to continue joint Arab action to develop and increase the scope of these victories ; and having received the views of all on all the above, and having succeeded in cooling the differences between brethren within the framework of consolidating Arab solidarity, the Seventh Arab Summit Conference resolves the following:

1. To affirm the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination and to return to their homeland;

2. To affirm the right of the Palestinian people to establish an independent national authority under the command of the Palestine Liberation Organization, the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people in any Palestinian territory that is liberated. This authority, once it is established, shall enjoy the support of the Arab states in all fields and at all levels;

3. To support the Palestine Liberation Organization in the exercise of its responsibility at the national and international levels within the framework of Arab commitment;

4. To call on the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, the Syrian Arab Republic, the Arab Republic of Egypt and the Palestine Liberation Organization to devise a formula for the regulation of relations between them in the light of these decisions so as to ensure their implementation;

5. That all the Arab states undertake to defend Palestinian national unity and not to interfere in the internal affairs of Palestinian action.​

SOURCE: League of Arab States (LAS) 28 October 1974 Seventh Arab League Summit

Most Respectfully,
R

I don't know why everyone ignores the fact that in 2012, the UN, by a very large margin recognized the State of Palestine to the 67 borders as a observer State...I don't see this Status being reduced and believe full recognition will follow. Also this recognition has the force of International Law...Sure Israel will ignore it and the world Boycott of any goods made in the occupation areas will quickly expand...

Of course the Palestinians can negotiate if it wishes, but the UN's die has been cast!

Because it did not and you are LYING when you say it did. All the UN did was recognise the P.A. as the representative of the muslims living in Palestine and gave them observer status. Unless you can produce the evidence that the UN recognised Palestine and gave it borders that go against UN res 242 and every subsequent resolution since dealing with the conflict.

IN OTHER WORDS YOU ARE FABRICATING A LIE BECAUSE YOU SUPPORT THE ISLAMIC TERRORISTS

 

[Phoenall]

pbel, et al,

It is a timeline issue again.

I don't know why everyone ignores the fact that in 2012, the UN, by a very large margin recognized the State of Palestine to the 67 borders as a observer State...I don't see this Status being reduced and believe full recognition will follow. Also this recognition has the force of International Law...Sure Israel will ignore it and the world Boycott of any goods made in the occupation areas will quickly expand...

Of course the Palestinians can negotiate if it wishes, but the UN's die has been cast!

(COMMENT)

Of course A/RES/67/19 4 December 2012, indicates Palestine could open negotiations. But the State of Palestine could have begun negotiations at any point after A/RES/43/177 15 December 1988.

Most Respectfully,
R

And no mention in he resolutions of binding borders for Israel and Palestine.

 

[Phoenall]

Holy verbosity, Batman!

P F Tinmore, et al,

The reason that there has never been an agreement between the Palestinians and the Israelis is that, the Palestinians were NOT a sovereign entity having the authority to enter into international agreement concluded between States.

It is illegal to annex territory that you occupy. No change in borders (that would annex land to Israel) can take place until the occupation ends.

Just as under UN res 242 no borders can be assigned until the P.A agree to talk and set out the borders, While they refuse to talk then Israel can keep on occupying the west bank to safeguard its citizens.

(COMMENT)

There has not been any recognized nation or state called Palestine in the region since the Ottomans took control and sovereignty (800 years ago). Any territory called Palestine in the 20th Century, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers of the day, refers to territory under Mandate (ie Mandate of Palestine) and not a sovereign nation. It was at the discretion of the Allied Powers as to what territory was were assigned to what Mandatory. In the early 20th Century, the indigenous population within the assigned Mandate (of Palestine) territory had no political authority over the territory.

You must have missed my post showing that Palestine had international borders, nationality, and citizens before the inception of the mandate. Who had sovereignty?

You must have missed the real world that shows Palestine has never had any international borders, its nationality was that of Jew and its citizens were Jewish right up until Arafat the *** stole the identity in 1964.That is not true. Israel never claimed or recognized those borders.

Obviously, the Arab League strategy failed. Egypt was able to occupy by force, the Gaza Strip (denying the Palestinians the right of self-determination) and Jordan was able to occupy and annex the West Bank (denying the Palestinians the right of self-determination). The "right of self-determination was never an Arab issue until the outcome of the 1967 War was decided. The overall intent was unmistaken: the deliberate effort to alter by force the implementation of the Resolution.


(COMMENT)

This statement is taken out of time context. In 1948, there was no State of Palestine to negotiate with, and the Palestinians had no competent authority or legal standing as a sovereign power. Similarly, in 1967, there was no State of Palestine to negotiate with, and the Palestinians had no competent authority or legal standing as a sovereign power. Both Gaza and the West Bank had been occupied by Arab Powers and under external Arab Control. In fact, the West Bank was annexed by Jordan on April 24, 1950. What you call "Palestinians" were actually Jordanians until 31 July, 1988, ceded its claims to the West Bank (called the "dismantlement").



Three and a half months later, the PLO as the "sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people" --- as decreed by the 1974 Arab League Summit in Rabat --- Declared Independence over the Gaza Strip and the former Jordanian annexed territory of the West Bank.

And in light of the victories achieved by Palestinian struggle in the confrontation with the Zionist enemy, at the Arab and international levels, at the United Nations, and of the obligation imposed thereby to continue joint Arab action to develop and increase the scope of these victories ; and having received the views of all on all the above, and having succeeded in cooling the differences between brethren within the framework of consolidating Arab solidarity, the Seventh Arab Summit Conference resolves the following:

1. To affirm the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination and to return to their homeland;

2. To affirm the right of the Palestinian people to establish an independent national authority under the command of the Palestine Liberation Organization, the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people in any Palestinian territory that is liberated. This authority, once it is established, shall enjoy the support of the Arab states in all fields and at all levels;

3. To support the Palestine Liberation Organization in the exercise of its responsibility at the national and international levels within the framework of Arab commitment;

4. To call on the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, the Syrian Arab Republic, the Arab Republic of Egypt and the Palestine Liberation Organization to devise a formula for the regulation of relations between them in the light of these decisions so as to ensure their implementation;

5. That all the Arab states undertake to defend Palestinian national unity and not to interfere in the internal affairs of Palestinian action.​

SOURCE: League of Arab States (LAS) 28 October 1974 Seventh Arab League Summit

Most Respectfully,
R

.

 

[P F Tinmore]

There are no borders mentioned in UN res 242, as there are none. The map you produced does not set out any borders at all just the proposal of the UN regarding Israel.

Not true. My map definitely spells out the international borders of Palestine. Inside of Palestine there are lines defining the proposed borders of Israel that were never implemented.

My post of the 1949 armistice agreement confirms that Palestine's borders were still valid in 1949.


The British Mandate is irrelevant to this issue. Palestine's international borders were already in place before the beginning of the mandate and were still there after the mandate left. Britain never annexed or otherwise claimed ownership of Palestine.

Just as it shows trans Jordan as part of the plan. Now come up with one map or agreement after 1919 that sets out the agreed and final borders of Israel and Palestine that is undisputedby all nations.

That is not possible. There has never been an agreement between Israel and Palestine over borders. Israel has no borders.

The border agreement is a final status issue in the current negotiations.

So you finally admit that Palestine has no actual international borders, and that you have LIED all along about them being present.

The map I posted is from a 1946 survey. The borders are valid, Example:

Where the existing truce lines run along the international boundary between Syria and Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow the boundary line.

The Avalon Project : Israeli-Syrian General Armistice Agreement, July 20, 1949

Learn how to read, dude.

 

[Phoenall]

Not true. My map definitely spells out the international borders of Palestine. Inside of Palestine there are lines defining the proposed borders of Israel that were never implemented.

My post of the 1949 armistice agreement confirms that Palestine's borders were still valid in 1949.


The British Mandate is irrelevant to this issue. Palestine's international borders were already in place before the beginning of the mandate and were still there after the mandate left. Britain never annexed or otherwise claimed ownership of Palestine.


That is not possible. There has never been an agreement between Israel and Palestine over borders. Israel has no borders.

The border agreement is a final status issue in the current negotiations.

So you finally admit that Palestine has no actual international borders, and that you have LIED all along about them being present.

The map I posted is from a 1946 survey. The borders are valid, Example:

Where the existing truce lines run along the international boundary between Syria and Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow the boundary line.

The Avalon Project : Israeli-Syrian General Armistice Agreement, July 20, 1949

Learn how to read, dude.

Maybe you should learn how to read as it clearly states PLAN as it proposal of borders. Now since the muslims refused to accept the PLAN the borders were never accepted as final. After the war the muslims had stolen all the land that you define as Palestine and held it illegally for 19 years. They placed all the inhabitants in concentration camps so they could blame Israel for causing them hardship. Then along comes 1967 and the Israeli's taking control of the west bank, gaza strip and Sinai as buffer zones to increase the safety of its citizens. Still no legally defined borders . The UN issues resolution 242 which states that the Israelis have to negotiate with their neighbours those borders. To this day there have never been any negotiations on these borders, with the muslims demanding that Israel return to non existent borders and give the muslims land they never owned before they will talk about talks of peace. So to this day there are no legally defined borders of palestine

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

So you finally admit that Palestine has no actual international borders, and that you have LIED all along about them being present.

The map I posted is from a 1946 survey. The borders are valid, Example:

Learn how to read, dude.

Maybe you should learn how to read as it clearly states PLAN as it proposal of borders. Now since the muslims refused to accept the PLAN the borders were never accepted as final. After the war the muslims had stolen all the land that you define as Palestine and held it illegally for 19 years. They placed all the inhabitants in concentration camps so they could blame Israel for causing them hardship. Then along comes 1967 and the Israeli's taking control of the west bank, gaza strip and Sinai as buffer zones to increase the safety of its citizens. Still no legally defined borders . The UN issues resolution 242 which states that the Israelis have to negotiate with their neighbours those borders. To this day there have never been any negotiations on these borders, with the muslims demanding that Israel return to non existent borders and give the muslims land they never owned before they will talk about talks of peace. So to this day there are no legally defined borders of palestine

Excellent summary and one even pea-sized brains on here should be able to understand.

 

[P F Tinmore]

So you finally admit that Palestine has no actual international borders, and that you have LIED all along about them being present.

The map I posted is from a 1946 survey. The borders are valid, Example:

Learn how to read, dude.

Maybe you should learn how to read as it clearly states PLAN as it proposal of borders. Now since the muslims refused to accept the PLAN the borders were never accepted as final. After the war the muslims had stolen all the land that you define as Palestine and held it illegally for 19 years. They placed all the inhabitants in concentration camps so they could blame Israel for causing them hardship. Then along comes 1967 and the Israeli's taking control of the west bank, gaza strip and Sinai as buffer zones to increase the safety of its citizens. Still no legally defined borders . The UN issues resolution 242 which states that the Israelis have to negotiate with their neighbours those borders. To this day there have never been any negotiations on these borders, with the muslims demanding that Israel return to non existent borders and give the muslims land they never owned before they will talk about talks of peace. So to this day there are no legally defined borders of palestine

Resolution 181 was a plan to change Palestine's borders. Palestine's international borders were defined in 1922. They were still valid in 1947. They were still valid in 1949.

Where does resolution 242 mention anything about negotiated borders?

 

[RoccoR]

Phoenall, pbel, et al,

Of course, much (but not all) of the impetus behind the Arab and Palestinian disputes with the Israelis (recognized Jewish leadership exercising the right of self-determination under UN guidance, protocols, and implementation assistance) is in connection with the claims of land sovereignty.

The argument on the Arab and Palestinian side of the equation is the basic claim that they, as stakeholders, had the priority bid for either an "independent Arab State" or "confederation of Arab States" as the regional indigenous population to the former territory under the Ottoman Empire, as citizens of the Ottoman Empire.

All three parties (the Arab League, the indigenous Arab Palestinian, and the invited Jewish Immigrants) promote their version of the same argument, in that they each hold some established inherent rights of a people with a historical connection to the lands, territories and resources. All three arguments are cultural-centric based (antiquated) on or derive from their particular political view, economic perspective, and social structures (some spiritual traditions, some history, and philosophical considerations).

Certainly, some of these views, perspectives, and philosophies have evolved with time, it is apparent that most of the constituents of each of the three parties, really has no appreciation for the views, perspectives, and philosophies held by the other.

Another weakness in the balancing of the equation is that, neither party (as individual or collectively as cultures) has the advanced to the point that outside guidance from the experience of the Allied Powers (or the Quartet as it as evolved into - today), has a true impact. The dispute is what "mine" and "due me" and "owned." It has nothing to do with the more advanced concepts of peace, or harmonious and cooperative relations between the three parties, based on principles of justice, democracy, respect for human rights, non-discrimination and good faith.

From the outset, the two of the three parties, opposed the more advanced idea that, for the sake of cultural preservation and the protection of a people, --- that Jewish people be granted grounds for reconstituting their national home. The other two parties to the dispute believed that justice and benevolence belonged to them exclusively, and that they had no responsibility to the advancement of humanity; or as they say today, it is all about them; Arabs that have cut themselves off from fellowship with humankind and hardened themselves against endeavor to be peaceful and charitable to other cultures less fortunate.

pbel, et al,

It is a timeline issue again.

I don't know why everyone ignores the fact that in 2012, the UN, by a very large margin recognized the State of Palestine to the 67 borders as a observer State...I don't see this Status being reduced and believe full recognition will follow. Also this recognition has the force of International Law...Sure Israel will ignore it and the world Boycott of any goods made in the occupation areas will quickly expand...

Of course the Palestinians can negotiate if it wishes, but the UN's die has been cast!

(COMMENT)

Of course A/RES/67/19 4 December 2012, indicates Palestine could open negotiations. But the State of Palestine could have begun negotiations at any point after A/RES/43/177 15 December 1988.

And no mention in he resolutions of binding borders for Israel and Palestine.

(COMMENT)

Again, boundaries were originally specified in the Resolution of 1947 and implemented by the UNPC. There was no Arab sovereignty (less the Hashemite Kingdom) in the disputed territories until 1988. This is a matter of historical record.

What is or was binding is merely an attempt to justify the continuation of the conflict, and not a matter of justice or sovereign resolution. The Palestinian declared the solemn oath to commit genocide (“The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out – man women and child.") even before the Jewish State became a reality. This is not an example of a Arab culture with the moral turpitude that seeks justice, but rather the conduct that is considered contrary to the international standards of justice.

What is binding or non-binding, has nothing to do with the conduct that is considered contrary to the international standards of justice. It is about the face of a culture that has based its entire existence for more than half a century, on jihad. And that is a matter of historical record.

Finally, whether or not the recommendations of 1947 are sound and valid, does not change the fact that the Arab parties to the conflict consistently chose the belligerent path to resolution and to the promulgation this moral turpitude for future of the upcoming generations to follow. Their pathway way established with the emergence of the martyr Izz al-Din al-Qissam, and carried forth in each succeeding generation for more than nine decades --- advancing a cause and principle of jihad up to the present day.

The struggle today, is not about justice, but about advancing a cause and principle of jihad.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[aris2chat]

Learn how to read, dude.

Maybe you should learn how to read as it clearly states PLAN as it proposal of borders. Now since the muslims refused to accept the PLAN the borders were never accepted as final. After the war the muslims had stolen all the land that you define as Palestine and held it illegally for 19 years. They placed all the inhabitants in concentration camps so they could blame Israel for causing them hardship. Then along comes 1967 and the Israeli's taking control of the west bank, gaza strip and Sinai as buffer zones to increase the safety of its citizens. Still no legally defined borders . The UN issues resolution 242 which states that the Israelis have to negotiate with their neighbours those borders. To this day there have never been any negotiations on these borders, with the muslims demanding that Israel return to non existent borders and give the muslims land they never owned before they will talk about talks of peace. So to this day there are no legally defined borders of palestine

Resolution 181 was a plan to change Palestine's borders. Palestine's international borders were defined in 1922. They were still valid in 1947. They were still valid in 1949.

Where does resolution 242 mention anything about negotiated borders?

Mandate was temporary till native people could organize for statehood. The mandate was to be divided up, not left as a whole country. British mandate included Iraq and Kuwait, not just Jordan and Israel.
The french mandate had Syria split into five desperate states. Lebanon had autonomy under the Ottomans. It was already governing and ready for independence.

Palestine was not a state. It still cannot form a unity government.

 

[Roudy]

I think it is time to curtail all but severe cases of need for medical treatment permits from Gazans into Israeli hospitals. Let the Gazans treat the vast majority of patients, rather than Israel.


ISA Arrests Terrorist Sniper Trying Use Humanitarian Permit to Attack IDF Soldiers
Published on: December 26, 2013

A resident of the Gaza Strip was in the process of planning a sniper attack on IDF soldiers, when he was injured and entered Israel with a humanitarian permit for medical care in Ramallah.

In early December, 2013, the ISA (Israel Security Agency or Shin Bet Security Service), with the assistance of the Israel Police, arrested a terrorist operative from the Gaza Strip’s Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades who has been involved in terrorist activity in recent years against civilians and soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces, including the planning of a sniper attack.

The operative, Mohammad Tzaber Mohammed Abu Amsha, a 32-year-old resident of Beit Hanun, admitted that he was training to be a sniper in an attack targeted at IDF soldiers along the Gaza Strip border fence. In order to research different ways to carry out the terror attack, he said he had collected information on IDF patrol movements in different areas, and information on their target practice exercises.

In the process of planning the attack Abu Amsha said he experienced an eye condition which impaired his sniping ability. He therefore requested to enter Israel with a humanitarian permit in order to receive medical treatment in a Ramallah hospital. The attack was postponed until his return to Gaza once his eyesight was to be restored.

Read the rest of the article
ISA Arrests Terrorist Sniper Trying Use Humanitarian Permit to Cause Harm

Attacks on soldiers are not terrorism.

Why are these lying sacks of shit playing the terrorist card?

The sack of shit would be someone who uses humanitarian or medical privilege and facilities to attack others. What shameless depravity. Also known as Palestinian Mentality (TM).

 

[RoccoR]

et al,

Of course it was a Plan, the proposal. It was a proposal made in 1947 and was not adopted until the General Assembly voted on it.

Maybe you should learn how to read as it clearly states PLAN as it proposal of borders. Now since the muslims refused to accept the PLAN the borders were never accepted as final. After the war the muslims had stolen all the land that you define as Palestine and held it illegally for 19 years. They placed all the inhabitants in concentration camps so they could blame Israel for causing them hardship. Then along comes 1967 and the Israeli's taking control of the west bank, gaza strip and Sinai as buffer zones to increase the safety of its citizens. Still no legally defined borders . The UN issues resolution 242 which states that the Israelis have to negotiate with their neighbours those borders. To this day there have never been any negotiations on these borders, with the muslims demanding that Israel return to non existent borders and give the muslims land they never owned before they will talk about talks of peace. So to this day there are no legally defined borders of palestine

Resolution 181 was a plan to change Palestine's borders. Palestine's international borders were defined in 1922. They were still valid in 1947. They were still valid in 1949.

Where does resolution 242 mention anything about negotiated borders?

Mandate was temporary till native people could organize for statehood. The mandate was to be divided up, not left as a whole country. British mandate included Iraq and Kuwait, not just Jordan and Israel.
The french mandate had Syria split into five desperate states. Lebanon had autonomy under the Ottomans. It was already governing and ready for independence.

Palestine was not a state. It still cannot form a unity government.

(COMMENT)

UNSC Resolution 242 had nothing to do with the original borders adopted by the General Assembly. And, it made no requirement to negotiate with the indigenous Palestinians, as they were not a neighboring country. The Armistice was to give time for the negotiation with Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt; which were the neighboring countries. There was not country as Palestine. They rejected the Plan and refused to attend the UNPC Implementation meetings or become involved in the "steps preparatory to independence."

As far as implementation goes, the UN Palestine Commission made a Public Statement for the record.

It was the general view of the Commission members that the General Assembly resolution of last November 29 remained intact and that therefore the Commission was not and could not be legally dissolved.

During today's brief meeting, Dr. Eduardo Morgan (Panama) said that this resolution of the Assembly merely "relieves responsibility. The Commission has not been dissolved. In fact the resolution of last November 29 has been implemented."

SOURCE: PAL/169 17 May 1948

I often here pro-Palestine Conflict advocates that the sequence of the events dictated that Israel do this and Israel do that. This is generally the ripple effect of what the UNPC experienced.

C. Powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, are defying the resolution of the General Assembly and are engaged in a deliberate effort to alter by force the settlement envisaged therein.

SOURCE: A/AC.21/9 S/676 16 February 1948

The Arab League, and the Hostile Arab Palestinian cannot change history. They rejected the Plan, refused to participate in the implementation process, and then tried to change the outcome by force, and when they lost the combat outcome, started a siege on Israel that has lasted more than half a century. Today, they play the part of a perpetual victim to a conflict they started.

• They say they were denied the right of self-determination, yet they use that right to declare independence.
  
• They claim they are not the aggressor, yet clearly acknowledge that they infiltrated foreign Arab troops into the territory, and then opened an attack from all sides.
  
• They say in one hand, that the November 1947 Resolution that adopted the Plan is invalid and illegal, yet they use that very protocol to proclaim and establish the State of Palestine.

It is clear that the Hostile Arab Palestinian want conflict, rather than peace, yet say the meet the requirement as a peaceful neighbor.

While there are a number of issues that the Palestinian should rightly grieve, the pursuit of Hostilities erodes their credibility as the victim of in the Middle East.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

It is clear that the Hostile Arab Palestinian want conflict, rather than peace,...

Really, What were their other options?

 

[P F Tinmore]

It was the general view of the Commission members that the General Assembly resolution of last November 29 remained intact and that therefore the Commission was not and could not be legally dissolved.

During today's brief meeting, Dr. Eduardo Morgan (Panama) said that this resolution of the Assembly merely "relieves responsibility. The Commission has not been dissolved. In fact the resolution of last November 29 has been implemented."

SOURCE: PAL/169 17 May 1948

Oh really? Where are those proposed borders? Where are the rights of the non Jewish population? Where is that international city of Jerusalem? Where is that economic union?

How can you post this when you know it is a crock of crap?