ISA Arrests Terrorist Sniper Trying Use Humanitarian Permit to Attack IDF Soldiers

[pbel]

Turkic peoples - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Turkic peoples are a collection of ethnic groups that live in northern, eastern, central and western Asia, northwestern China and parts of eastern Europe. They speak languages belonging to the Turkic language family.[10] They share, to varying degrees, certain cultural traits and historical backgrounds. The term Turkic represents a broad ethno-linguistic group of peoples including existing societies such as the Turkish people, Azerbaijanis, Chuvashes, Kazakhs, Tatars, Kyrgyz, Turkmens, Uyghurs, Uzbeks, Bashkirs, Qashqai, Gagauz, Yakuts, Crimean Karaites, Krymchaks, Karakalpaks, Karachays, Balkars, Nogais and as well as past civilizations such as the Göktürks, Kumans, Kipchaks, Avars, Bulgars, Turgeshes, Khazars, Seljuk Turks, Ottoman Turks, Mamluks, Timurids, Khiljis, and possibly Huns and the Xiongnu.[10][11][12]

 

[Lipush]

Israel is at war with the Palestinians.

Attacks on foreign troops are not terrorism.

So, the Palestinians are also at-war with the Israelis?

Not by choice.

Not by choice. By religious and cultural obligation.

 

[P F Tinmore]

There are no '67 borders never have been never will be as they are not enforcible. All they are, are ceasefire lines drawn on a map with no legal identity. The UN resolution 242 spells this out when it says that the borders of Israel MUST be reached by mutual understanding

The UN recognized a Palestinian State to the 67 borders...


General Assembly Votes Overwhelmingly to Accord Palestine 'Non ...



https://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2012/ga11317.doc.htm*


https://www.google.com/search?sourc...0l3.0.0.0.15859...........0.1KUrcMGT_Tg&pbx=1

Nov 29, 2012 - Non-Member Observer State' Status in United Nations ... Israel is prepared to live in peace with a Palestinian State, but for peace to endure, ... including recognition of the Jewish State and an agreement to end the conflict with ...

So produce the map that is a legally binding document that shows the borders of Palestine. You cant because one does not exist, and if the UN tried to force one on Israel it would lead to war in the M.E. The only binding document is the one drawn up in 1919 that shows the agreed extent of Israel, the arabs agreed to this curtilage and it would have been implemented apart from WW2 breaking out.

Map of Palestine. Note the international boundaries.

Now post a 1948 map of Israel. A map of the new state of Israel.

 

[aris2chat]

arab rejected the partition so the map is not valid as a national border. After arab stopped their war, the ceasefire lines became a temporary border, pending negotiations. Then arab lost the WB and sinai. Israel gave back the sinai, and jordan withdrew it claim and let Israel retain the WB.

 

[Kondor3]

"...Map of Palestine. Note the international boundaries..."

I see a map of an Unincorporated, Unchartered, Unorganized strip of land called Palestine, whose limits touch the international borders of established nation-states.

Rather like airless vacuum, surrounded by substance; with the boundaries attributable to the substance rather than the vacuum; showing where the substance ends and the nothingness begins.

 

[P F Tinmore]

arab rejected the partition so the map is not valid as a national border. After arab stopped their war, the ceasefire lines became a temporary border, pending negotiations. Then arab lost the WB and sinai. Israel gave back the sinai, and jordan withdrew it claim and let Israel retain the WB.

Got links?

 

[aris2chat]

Palestine-Israel Journal: <b>Why the UN Partition Plan Wasn't Implemented </b>

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/29/w...n-Plan-Was-Error-Mahmoud-Abbas-Says.html?_r=0

I forget common knowledge is not so common these days
How can so many important fact not be know by people engaged in discussions on the topic?

arab rejected the partition so the map is not valid as a national border. After arab stopped their war, the ceasefire lines became a temporary border, pending negotiations. Then arab lost the WB and sinai. Israel gave back the sinai, and jordan withdrew it claim and let Israel retain the WB.

Got links?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Palestine-Israel Journal: <b>Why the UN Partition Plan Wasn't Implemented </b>

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/29/w...n-Plan-Was-Error-Mahmoud-Abbas-Says.html?_r=0

I forget common knowledge is not so common these days
How can so many important fact not be know by people engaged in discussions on the topic?

arab rejected the partition so the map is not valid as a national border. After arab stopped their war, the ceasefire lines became a temporary border, pending negotiations. Then arab lost the WB and sinai. Israel gave back the sinai, and jordan withdrew it claim and let Israel retain the WB.

Got links?

OK, I already knew all that. However, the items in bold above were not addressed in your links. Those are the items I question.

 

[Phoenall]

The UN recognized a Palestinian State to the 67 borders...


General Assembly Votes Overwhelmingly to Accord Palestine 'Non ...



https://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2012/ga11317.doc.htm*


https://www.google.com/search?sourc...0l3.0.0.0.15859...........0.1KUrcMGT_Tg&pbx=1

Nov 29, 2012 - Non-Member Observer State' Status in United Nations ... Israel is prepared to live in peace with a Palestinian State, but for peace to endure, ... including recognition of the Jewish State and an agreement to end the conflict with ...

So produce the map that is a legally binding document that shows the borders of Palestine. You cant because one does not exist, and if the UN tried to force one on Israel it would lead to war in the M.E. The only binding document is the one drawn up in 1919 that shows the agreed extent of Israel, the arabs agreed to this curtilage and it would have been implemented apart from WW2 breaking out.

Map of Palestine. Note the international boundaries.

Now post a 1948 map of Israel. A map of the new state of Israel.

NOPE that is the partition plan it is not the map that delineates the borders. As you will find there is no map that actually shows the borders of Palestine or Israel that was drawn later than 1919. So asking for a map of Israel is an impossible task unless you subscribe to the only legally binding agreement for setting up the state of Israel.

Try reading UN resolution 242 and see just were the borders of Israel and Palestine are, and while you are at it see just which nations are part of Palestine.

But here is the only undisputed map of the borders of Israel

 

[Phoenall]

Palestine-Israel Journal: <b>Why the UN Partition Plan Wasn't Implemented </b>

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/29/w...n-Plan-Was-Error-Mahmoud-Abbas-Says.html?_r=0

I forget common knowledge is not so common these days
How can so many important fact not be know by people engaged in discussions on the topic?

Got links?

OK, I already knew all that. However, the items in bold above were not addressed in your links. Those are the items I question.

Then try UN res 242 that spells out the facts, there are no recognised borders of Israel and Palestine. In fact it states that Israel should negotiate with its neighbours "secure and recognized boundaries" , and does not mention the Palestinians or any of their claims.

 

[P F Tinmore]

So produce the map that is a legally binding document that shows the borders of Palestine. You cant because one does not exist, and if the UN tried to force one on Israel it would lead to war in the M.E. The only binding document is the one drawn up in 1919 that shows the agreed extent of Israel, the arabs agreed to this curtilage and it would have been implemented apart from WW2 breaking out.

Map of Palestine. Note the international boundaries.

Now post a 1948 map of Israel. A map of the new state of Israel.

NOPE that is the partition plan it is not the map that delineates the borders. As you will find there is no map that actually shows the borders of Palestine or Israel that was drawn later than 1919. So asking for a map of Israel is an impossible task unless you subscribe to the only legally binding agreement for setting up the state of Israel.

Try reading UN resolution 242 and see just were the borders of Israel and Palestine are, and while you are at it see just which nations are part of Palestine.

But here is the only undisputed map of the borders of Israel

Where are those borders mentioned in resolution 242? Quote the passage.

The map I posted is from a 1946 survey. The borders are valid, Example:

Where the existing truce lines run along the international boundary between Syria and Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow the boundary line.

The Avalon Project : Israeli-Syrian General Armistice Agreement, July 20, 1949

 

[MHunterB]

Religion and Politics are an anachronism and don't belong in modern Civil Society.

How do you conceive of ANY society without politics? Politics are essential in societies, primative and modern.

I said: Religion and Politics don't mix in modern societies...Religion is based on Myths, Politics are based on reality.

So you are an atheist then?

 

[RoccoR]

Phoenall, et al,

Yes, this is often a Palestinian held view.

Then try UN res 242 that spells out the facts, there are no recognised borders of Israel and Palestine. In fact it states that Israel should negotiate with its neighbours "secure and recognized boundaries" , and does not mention the Palestinians or any of their claims.

(COMMENT)

I have often heard Security Council Resolution 242 of 22 November 1967 (also known as. "land for peace" resolution), interpreted in that respect.

The State of Israel, did attempt to negotiate with its neighbors.

• In March 1979, Treaty of Peace between the Arab Republic of Egypt and the State of Israel, which established boundaries.
  
  

  Article II
  
  

  The permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel is the recognized international boundary between Egypt and the former mandated territory of Palestine, as shown on the map at Annex II, without prejudice to the issue of the status of the Gaza Strip. The Parties recognize this boundary as inviolable. Each will respect the territorial integrity of the other, including their territorial waters and airspace.​

• In October 1994 Treaty of Peace between The State of Israel and The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, which established boundaries.
  
  

  Article 3 - International Boundary
  
  

  1. The international boundary between Israel and Jordan is delimited with reference to the boundary definition under the Mandate as is shown in Annex I(a), on the mapping materials attached thereto and co-ordinates specified therein.
  2. The boundary, as set out in Annex I (a), is the permanent, secure and recognised international boundary between Israel and Jordan, without prejudice to the status of any territories that came under Israeli military government control in 1967.
  
  ... ... ... plus Paragraphs 3 thru 9.
  ​

The State of Palestine did NOT come into being until its Declaration of Independence in November 1988. However, the UN had, in the Partition Plan, allocated territory for another Arab State. When the Peace Treaty between Israel and Egypt was negotiated, there was no State of Palestine to interact with in terms of having the "Capacity of States to Conclude Treaties" on behalf of the Palestinians under Treaty Law Convention (Article 6). The 1974 Arab Summit resolution (League of Arab States) at Rabat, which designated the PLO as the “sole legitimate representative” of the Palestinian people, was the closest equivalent.

The 1994 Treaty with Israel was, in part, worded to recognized the 1988 Palestinian Declaration of Independence, and to consummate the 1988 Jordanian disengagement decision. Prior to the 1988 disengagement, the PRINCIPAL SECRETARY (to the UN) reported that he had received, for purposes of information, from the Headquarters Secretariat of the United Nations, the full text of the resolution of the Jordan Parliament as approved (April 1950) by the King providing for the annexation of the Arab part of Palestine. Afterwards, the 1993 Oslo Accord became the primary guiding instrument.

Much of the Security Council Resolution 242, particularly since there is such a very large faction of Palestinians that refuse to recognize the map and boundaries outlined in the associated Map #3243 appended to the Resolution. So, form a Palestinian perspective, UNSC Resolution 242, as viewed today, is defective, as it cites international boundaries that are not recognized by the Palestinians. And the Palestinians have factions that refuse to recognize the international boundaries cited by treaty.

It should be noted that the Palestinians have not terminated "all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force." They are still arguing the validity of Maps and the sovereignty of the State.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Kondor3]

So, the Palestinians are also at-war with the Israelis?

Not by choice.

Not by choice. By religious and cultural obligation.

Very well played...

 

[Kondor3]

arab rejected the partition so the map is not valid as a national border. After arab stopped their war, the ceasefire lines became a temporary border, pending negotiations. Then arab lost the WB and sinai. Israel gave back the sinai, and jordan withdrew it claim and let Israel retain the WB.

Got links?

To what?

Links to the Arabs rejecting the UN Partition Plan?

Did the Arabs accept the UN Partition Plan after all, and the PLO and its successors simply missed the memo?

 

[RoccoR]

Kondor3, P F Tinmore, et al,

This is an example to the chaos injected into the dispute.

arab rejected the partition so the map is not valid as a national border. After arab stopped their war, the ceasefire lines became a temporary border, pending negotiations. Then arab lost the WB and sinai. Israel gave back the sinai, and jordan withdrew it claim and let Israel retain the WB.

Got links?

To what?

Links to the Arabs rejecting the UN Partition Plan?

Did the Arabs accept the UN Partition Plan after all, and the PLO and its successors simply missed the memo?

(COMMENT)

I do not think anyone missed the memo. Everyone has seen it. Palestinian arguments are based on the agenda they are trying to support at any one time.

With the uprising, with the escalation of the revolutionary struggle and with the accumulation of revolutionary experience wherever the struggle is in progress, the Palestinian conjuncture reaches a sharp historical turning point. The Palestinian Arab people asserts once more its inalienable rights and its demand to exercise those rights in its Palestinian homeland.

By virtue of the natural, historical and legal right of the Palestinian Arab people to its homeland, Palestine, and of the sacrifices of its succeeding generations in defence of the freedom and independence of that homeland,

Pursuant to the resolutions of the Arab Summit Conferences and on the basis of the international legitimacy embodied in the resolutions of the United Nations since 1947, and

Through the exercise by the Palestinian Arab people of its right to self-determination, political independence and sovereignty over its territory:

The Palestine National Council hereby declares, in the Name of God and on behalf of the Palestinian Arab people, the establishment of the State of Palestine in the land of Palestine with its capital at Jerusalem.

SOURCE: ANNEX III Declaration of Independence A/43/827 S/20278 18 November 1988

The Palestinian argue both sides of the coin.

• They argue they were denied their "right to self-determination;" and, they argue they are recognized as a Sovereign State by the "right of self-determination."

• They argue the Resolution is valid, and they argue the Resolution is invalid.

• They argue that the partition of Palestine in 1947, and the establishment of the state of Israel are entirely illegal; and they argue that they have respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area.

• They argue their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force; and, they argue the right to combat foreign occupation by whatever means, in order to liberate their territories and secure their right to self-determination and independence.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Phoenall]

Map of Palestine. Note the international boundaries.

Now post a 1948 map of Israel. A map of the new state of Israel.

NOPE that is the partition plan it is not the map that delineates the borders. As you will find there is no map that actually shows the borders of Palestine or Israel that was drawn later than 1919. So asking for a map of Israel is an impossible task unless you subscribe to the only legally binding agreement for setting up the state of Israel.

Try reading UN resolution 242 and see just were the borders of Israel and Palestine are, and while you are at it see just which nations are part of Palestine.

But here is the only undisputed map of the borders of Israel

Where are those borders mentioned in resolution 242? Quote the passage.

The map I posted is from a 1946 survey. The borders are valid, Example:

Where the existing truce lines run along the international boundary between Syria and Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow the boundary line.

The Avalon Project : Israeli-Syrian General Armistice Agreement, July 20, 1949

There are no borders mentioned in UN res 242, as there are none. The map you produced does not set out any borders at all just the proposal of the UN regarding Israel. The map I produced shows the British mandate of Palestine and how it agreed with the local arabs/muslims the new state of Israel. Just as it shows trans Jordan as part of the plan. Now come up with one map or agreement after 1919 that sets out the agreed and final borders of Israel and Palestine that is undisputedby all nations.

 

[Kondor3]

The map shows where the unincorporated vacuum called 'Palestine' ends and where established nation-states begin.

 

[P F Tinmore]

NOPE that is the partition plan it is not the map that delineates the borders. As you will find there is no map that actually shows the borders of Palestine or Israel that was drawn later than 1919. So asking for a map of Israel is an impossible task unless you subscribe to the only legally binding agreement for setting up the state of Israel.

Try reading UN resolution 242 and see just were the borders of Israel and Palestine are, and while you are at it see just which nations are part of Palestine.

But here is the only undisputed map of the borders of Israel

Where are those borders mentioned in resolution 242? Quote the passage.

The map I posted is from a 1946 survey. The borders are valid, Example:

Where the existing truce lines run along the international boundary between Syria and Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow the boundary line.

The Avalon Project : Israeli-Syrian General Armistice Agreement, July 20, 1949

There are no borders mentioned in UN res 242, as there are none. The map you produced does not set out any borders at all just the proposal of the UN regarding Israel.

Not true. My map definitely spells out the international borders of Palestine. Inside of Palestine there are lines defining the proposed borders of Israel that were never implemented.

My post of the 1949 armistice agreement confirms that Palestine's borders were still valid in 1949.

The map I produced shows the British mandate of Palestine and how it agreed with the local arabs/muslims the new state of Israel.

The British Mandate is irrelevant to this issue. Palestine's international borders were already in place before the beginning of the mandate and were still there after the mandate left. Britain never annexed or otherwise claimed ownership of Palestine.

Just as it shows trans Jordan as part of the plan. Now come up with one map or agreement after 1919 that sets out the agreed and final borders of Israel and Palestine that is undisputedby all nations.

That is not possible. There has never been an agreement between Israel and Palestine over borders. Israel has no borders.

The border agreement is a final status issue in the current negotiations.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

The reason that there has never been an agreement between the Palestinians and the Israelis is that, the Palestinians were NOT a sovereign entity having the authority to enter into international agreement concluded between States.

That is not possible. There has never been an agreement between Israel and Palestine over borders. Israel has no borders.

(COMMENT)

There has not been any recognized nation or state called Palestine in the region since the Ottomans took control and sovereignty (800 years ago). Any territory called Palestine in the 20th Century, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers of the day, refers to territory under Mandate (ie Mandate of Palestine) and not a sovereign nation. It was at the discretion of the Allied Powers as to what territory was were assigned to what Mandatory. In the early 20th Century, the indigenous population within the assigned Mandate (of Palestine) territory had no political authority over the territory.

The State of Israel HAD boundaries (as outlined in Part II Boundaries Section B Jewish State), on the implementation on Mid-night between 14/15 May 1948. However the immediate attack by Armies of the Arab League was with the intent to undermine the implementation.

More important still, Arab elements, both inside and outside of Palestine, have exerted organized, intensive effort toward defeating the purposes of the resolution of the General Assembly. To this end, threats, acts of violence and infiltration of organized, armed, uniformed Arab bands into Palestinian territory have been employed. As early as 16 February, the Commission, in its first Special Report to the Security Council, stated that &#8220;powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, are defying the resolution of the General Assembly and are engaged in a deliberate effort to alter by force the settlement envisaged therein&#8221;.

SOURCE: A/532 10 April 1948

Obviously, the Arab League strategy failed. Egypt was able to occupy by force, the Gaza Strip (denying the Palestinians the right of self-determination) and Jordan was able to occupy and annex the West Bank (denying the Palestinians the right of self-determination). The "right of self-determination was never an Arab issue until the outcome of the 1967 War was decided. The overall intent was unmistaken: the deliberate effort to alter by force the implementation of the Resolution.

The border agreement is a final status issue in the current negotiations.

(COMMENT)

This statement is taken out of time context. In 1948, there was no State of Palestine to negotiate with, and the Palestinians had no competent authority or legal standing as a sovereign power. Similarly, in 1967, there was no State of Palestine to negotiate with, and the Palestinians had no competent authority or legal standing as a sovereign power. Both Gaza and the West Bank had been occupied by Arab Powers and under external Arab Control. In fact, the West Bank was annexed by Jordan on April 24, 1950. What you call "Palestinians" were actually Jordanians until 31 July, 1988, ceded its claims to the West Bank (called the "dismantlement").

Jordan, dear brothers, has not nor will it give up its support and assistance to the Palestinian people, until they achieve their national goals, God willing. No one outside Palestine has had, nor can have, an attachment to Palestine, or its cause, firmer than that of Jordan or of my family. Moreover, Jordan is a confrontation state, whose borders with Israel are longer than those of any other Arab state, longer even than the combined borders of the West Bank and Gaza with Israel.

In addition, Jordan will not give up its commitment to take part in the peace process. We have contributed to the peace process until it reached the stage of a consensus to convene an international peace conference on the Middle East. The purpose of the conference would be to achieve a just and comprehensive peace settlement to the Arab Israeli conflict, and the settlement of the Palestinian problem in all its aspects. We have defined our position in this regard, as everybody knows, through the six principles which we have already made public.

Jordan, dear brothers, is a principal party to the Arab-Israeli conflict, and to the peace process. It shoulders its national responsibilities on that basis.

SOURCE: Address to the Nation

Three and a half months later, the PLO as the "sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people" --- as decreed by the 1974 Arab League Summit in Rabat --- Declared Independence over the Gaza Strip and the former Jordanian annexed territory of the West Bank.

And in light of the victories achieved by Palestinian struggle in the confrontation with the Zionist enemy, at the Arab and international levels, at the United Nations, and of the obligation imposed thereby to continue joint Arab action to develop and increase the scope of these victories ; and having received the views of all on all the above, and having succeeded in cooling the differences between brethren within the framework of consolidating Arab solidarity, the Seventh Arab Summit Conference resolves the following:

1. To affirm the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination and to return to their homeland;

2. To affirm the right of the Palestinian people to establish an independent national authority under the command of the Palestine Liberation Organization, the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people in any Palestinian territory that is liberated. This authority, once it is established, shall enjoy the support of the Arab states in all fields and at all levels;

3. To support the Palestine Liberation Organization in the exercise of its responsibility at the national and international levels within the framework of Arab commitment;

4. To call on the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, the Syrian Arab Republic, the Arab Republic of Egypt and the Palestine Liberation Organization to devise a formula for the regulation of relations between them in the light of these decisions so as to ensure their implementation;

5. That all the Arab states undertake to defend Palestinian national unity and not to interfere in the internal affairs of Palestinian action.​

SOURCE: League of Arab States (LAS) 28 October 1974 Seventh Arab League Summit

Most Respectfully,
R