Is it time for Universal Healthcare....and can it be done?

In another thread, a poster brought up the Singapore system. It seemed very well thought out. I'm a republican too, but our health care is a disaster. Honestly, I think our political system is too fractured to come up with a government solution. I'm almost always against big universal plans, but I'll admit they are not impossible. The problem is you need to be unified to come up with something halfway intelligent like the Singapore system, and we are definitely not that.


Whenever American propose socialized healthcare, we act like we're the first country in the world to do it. We come up with zany ideas on how to do it.

There's plenty of countries we could study and find out what works and what doesn't. We could create a great healthcare system based on those models, but instead we just play this stupid game.

Except that we're the only country that's just like us.

Who would you like us to study and apply to our situation? Some tiny European/Scandinavian country with a fraction of our population and almost total homogeneity? Some other country with a vastly different culture that has no concept of individual freedom such as American citizens take for granted?

Be specific.

Homogeneity and culture should have NOTHING to do with healthcare - unless your a xenophobe and a racist.

The scale of economies may be something that should be taken in account in modeling an American system, but given the number of countries that have successfully implemented socialized healthcare, we can certainly create a successful system.
 
It is way past time for Universal Health Care. Why are we the only developed country without Healthcare daycare paid parental leave living wage cheap College and training good vacations Fair taxes on the rich national ID card to stop illegal immigration Etc etc etc? Scumbag GOP and silly dupes Like Norman...
TN has free college and tech school and they didnt raise taxes for it. Can you believe that? No ******* taxes. TN is mostly republicans.
Might want to rethink your tired cliches.

So how are they paying for it? Debt?

There's no such thing as a free lunch.
Lottery
Free college and not forcing anyone to pay for it. Imagine that!

So what's the big difference between running a lottery and imposing a tax?

Taxation is being honest and upfront, the lottery is taking advantage of stupid people.

If you don't think so, then I'll give you 20 chances to guess my phone number. Don't think that you'll succeed.

You have a one in 10,000,000 chance of guessing my phone number. That's alot more probable than winning the lottery.

What's the difference between a lottery and a tax? Um, one's voluntary and one isn't? Hello?

Robbery is also honest and upfront, but I don't think that really recommends it.

Once again, you seem to think everything should be determined solely on YOUR personal assessments and values. You DO get that you are not actually the only person in this country, right? And that the rest of us actually kinda matter too, and are entitled to rights just like yours? Is this a new concept I'm introducing here?

If I want to voluntarily do something that YOU consider "stupid", then that is my right. If you want to mandate that I do something you consider "smart" - or "honest and upfront" - THAT is NOT your right.
 
So how are they paying for it? Debt?

There's no such thing as a free lunch.
Lottery
Free college and not forcing anyone to pay for it. Imagine that!

So what's the big difference between running a lottery and imposing a tax?

Taxation is being honest and upfront, the lottery is taking advantage of stupid people.

If you don't think so, then I'll give you 20 chances to guess my phone number. Don't think that you'll succeed.

You have a one in 10,000,000 chance of guessing my phone number. That's alot more probable than winning the lottery.
Who gives a shit? Nobody is being forced to take care of other people.
Goddamn, can you ******* hacks EVER be satisfied?
As our country just continues to get worse and worse, stupid. Change the channel.
WTF are you about, you senile old goat?
And it ain't getting better with more Giant tax cuts for the rich and giant corporations and crappy minimum wage jobs....
Demise of the American Middle Class In Numbers.

Over the past 35 years the American dream has gradually disappeared. The process was slow, so most people didn’t notice. They just worked a few more hours, borrowed a little more and cut back on non-essentials. But looking at the numbers and comparing them over long time periods, it is obvious that things have changed drastically. Here are the details:

1. WORKERS PRODUCE MORE BUT THE GAINS GO TO BUSINESS.

Over the past 63 years worker productivity has grown by 2.0% per year.

But after 1980, workers received a smaller share every year. Labor’s share of income (1992 = 100%):

1950 = 101%
1960 = 105%
1970 = 105%
1980 = 105% – Reagan
1990 = 100%
2000 = 96%
2007 = 92%

A 13% drop since 1980

2. THE TOP 10% GET A LARGER SHARE.

Share of National Income going to Top 10%:

1950 = 35%
1960 = 34%
1970 = 34%
1980 = 34% – Reagan
1990 = 40%
2000 = 47%
2007 = 50%

An increase of 16% since Reagan.

3. WORKERS COMPENSATED FOR THE LOSS OF INCOME BY SPENDING THEIR SAVINGS.

The savings Rose up to Reagan and fell during and after.

1950 = 6.0%
1960 = 7.0%
1970 = 8.5%
1980 = 10.0% – Reagan
1982 = 11.2% – Peak
1990 = 7.0%
2000 = 2.0%
2006 = -1.1% (Negative = withdrawing from savings)

A 12.3% drop after Reagan.

4. WORKERS ALSO BORROWED TO MAKE UP FOR THE LOSS.

Household Debt as percentage of GDP:

1965 = 46%
1970 = 45%
1980 = 50% – Reagan
1990 = 61%
2000 = 69%
2007 = 95%

A 45% increase after 1980.

5. SO THE GAP BETWEEN THE RICHEST AND THE POOREST HAS GROWN.

Gap Between the Share of Capital Income earned by the top 1%
and the bottom 80%:

1980 = 10%
2003 = 56%

A 5.6 times increase.

6. AND THE AMERICAN DREAM IS GONE.

The Probably of Moving Up from the Bottom 40% to the Top 40%:

1945 = 12%
1958 = 6%
1990 = 3%
2000 = 2%

A 10% Decrease.

Links:

1 = ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.requests/pf/totalf1.txt
1 = https://www.clevelandfed.org/Research/PolicyDis/No7Nov04.pdf
1 = Clipboard01.jpg (image)
2 – http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/blog/09/04/27/CongratulationstoEmmanuelSaez/
3 = http://www.demos.org/inequality/images/charts/uspersonalsaving_thumb.gif
3 = U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis (BEA)
4 = Federated Prudent Bear Fund (A): Overview
4 = The Fed - Financial Accounts of the United States - Z.1 - Current Release
5/6 = 15 Mind-Blowing Facts About Wealth And Inequality In America

Overview = http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2010062415/reagan-revolution-home-roost-charts
 
What fix is there?
We expand the current Medicare - Medicare Advantage - Medicare Supplement system to all. An excellent, already-functioning blend of public money and free market competition and innovation.

The Supplements and MA plans are optional, and people can just buy up. We'd catch and fix problems much earlier, before they become larger and more costly problems. We take a MASSIVE cost monkey off the backs of American employers. We streamline the delivery/billing process. We no longer have Americans paying higher premiums and fees to make up for those who don't and get "free" care.

When we're younger and healthier, the plan would cover less and ladder up over time. The Supplements and MA plans would take care of the rest.

It's right there, waiting for us, but we have our heads too far up our ass to see it.
.
Are you aware that the people on Medicare paid into the system for 20-30 years before they ever drew a nickels worth of care?

And a lot of other people paid in for decades and now don't qualify to get Medicare.
Explain please!

Sorry, I should be more clear and say that not everyone gets to receive Medicare without continuing to pay a buttload.



What specifically do you mean when you say “and a lot of people paid in for decades and now don’t qualify to get Medicare” explaining that would be sufficient! TIA.
 
First off, for those that know me...I am a conservative.
I do ask the question in sincerity.
Last year with health premiums, and healthcare bills, my wife and I spent $7,040 for the two of us.
Then add in the employers portion of premium and that totals up to roughly $11,000.
Even with that, we are well below the average cost the average American pays.
So, would I pay out say... $600 a month in taxes, and my employer in lieu of paying premiums, pay another $400 a month? Instead of paying an insurer?
Yes, yes I would.
But only if the care was equally as good.
And would it be?
How would we, as a nation, pay for the bums and lazy asses who won't work?
Should a "health tax" be income specific? So someone who makes $250,000 a year would pay a great deal more than a $50,000 a year person? Would that work?

One thing is for certain. The current system is not working well. We are paying more and more and more to insurers who are raising deductibles and increasing premiums while covering less.
What fix is there?

Socialized healthcare was first implemented in Germany by Bismark at the end of the 19th century. Since then there's been dozens of countries that have successfully implemented socialized healthcare. It's not a question of if or even how it can be done. We have lot's of examples to go by.

What we have is one group of people that are making a fortune because of the extreme over pricing of American healthcare, and another group of mindless people who are fanatically against socialized healthcare just because they view it as a 'socialist' or 'liberal'.

The percentage of people who can work but will not is tiny. It is grossly exaggerated. We by far have always had more of a problem because people want to work and can not find a job, or people who do work and are so grossly underpaid that they still have to rely on government support.

As far as a healthcare tax, we only have to look at the dozen or so other countries and see how they do it. I doubt that the wealthy Swiss are crying over their healthcare tax.

This simple fact is, we're not like other countries. The reason we can't have universal health care, the reason we don't want important social functions co-opted by government in general, is because we have a very diverse culture. We simply don't have the consensus necessary to successfully nationalize things like health care. Some people think of this as a "bug". I see it as a feature.

It seems that what your saying is that Americans have no compassion for their fellow American because we are so diverse. I know some ridiculously wealthy Swiss people who are fanatically patriotic. However, unlike Americans, their idea of patriotism is caring for their fellow Swiss citizens.

I'd rather have the government manage healthcare, then have it controlled by pure greed as it is now.

It seems that what you are saying is that the only possible "compassion" is the one defined as YOU see it.

YOU'D rather have government-managed healthcare. While you're being all "compassionate to your fellow Americans", how about you scrape up a smidgen of understanding for the large numbers of people who don't want what you want, and don't appreciate being forced to have it instead of what they DO want, just because YOU want it?

Amazingly enough, airily waving off anyone else who wants different things than you as "greedy" and therefore deciding they can just be ignored and forced to adhere to your "superior, compassionate" plans is not only not going to work, it makes you a far greedier and more selfish person than you accuse them of being.

Sure, I supposed to have lot's of compassion for people who have no compassion whatsoever.

The greedy people I was referring to are the people in the healthcare, pharmaceutical and insurance industries that cause American healthcare cost to be astronomically high. If it weren't for those people there would be no need for socialized healthcare.
 
In another thread, a poster brought up the Singapore system. It seemed very well thought out. I'm a republican too, but our health care is a disaster. Honestly, I think our political system is too fractured to come up with a government solution. I'm almost always against big universal plans, but I'll admit they are not impossible. The problem is you need to be unified to come up with something halfway intelligent like the Singapore system, and we are definitely not that.


Whenever American propose socialized healthcare, we act like we're the first country in the world to do it. We come up with zany ideas on how to do it.

There's plenty of countries we could study and find out what works and what doesn't. We could create a great healthcare system based on those models, but instead we just play this stupid game.

Except that we're the only country that's just like us.

Who would you like us to study and apply to our situation? Some tiny European/Scandinavian country with a fraction of our population and almost total homogeneity? Some other country with a vastly different culture that has no concept of individual freedom such as American citizens take for granted?

Be specific.

Homogeneity and culture should have NOTHING to do with healthcare - unless your a xenophobe and a racist.

The scale of economies may be something that should be taken in account in modeling an American system, but given the number of countries that have successfully implemented socialized healthcare, we can certainly create a successful system.
Like how our inept "leaders" handled SS and medicaid?
 
First off, for those that know me...I am a conservative.
I do ask the question in sincerity.
Last year with health premiums, and healthcare bills, my wife and I spent $7,040 for the two of us.
Then add in the employers portion of premium and that totals up to roughly $11,000.
Even with that, we are well below the average cost the average American pays.
So, would I pay out say... $600 a month in taxes, and my employer in lieu of paying premiums, pay another $400 a month? Instead of paying an insurer?
Yes, yes I would.
But only if the care was equally as good.
And would it be?
How would we, as a nation, pay for the bums and lazy asses who won't work?
Should a "health tax" be income specific? So someone who makes $250,000 a year would pay a great deal more than a $50,000 a year person? Would that work?

One thing is for certain. The current system is not working well. We are paying more and more and more to insurers who are raising deductibles and increasing premiums while covering less.
What fix is there?

Socialized healthcare was first implemented in Germany by Bismark at the end of the 19th century. Since then there's been dozens of countries that have successfully implemented socialized healthcare. It's not a question of if or even how it can be done. We have lot's of examples to go by.

What we have is one group of people that are making a fortune because of the extreme over pricing of American healthcare, and another group of mindless people who are fanatically against socialized healthcare just because they view it as a 'socialist' or 'liberal'.

The percentage of people who can work but will not is tiny. It is grossly exaggerated. We by far have always had more of a problem because people want to work and can not find a job, or people who do work and are so grossly underpaid that they still have to rely on government support.

As far as a healthcare tax, we only have to look at the dozen or so other countries and see how they do it. I doubt that the wealthy Swiss are crying over their healthcare tax.

This simple fact is, we're not like other countries. The reason we can't have universal health care, the reason we don't want important social functions co-opted by government in general, is because we have a very diverse culture. We simply don't have the consensus necessary to successfully nationalize things like health care. Some people think of this as a "bug". I see it as a feature.

It seems that what your saying is that Americans have no compassion for their fellow American because we are so diverse. I know some ridiculously wealthy Swiss people who are fanatically patriotic. However, unlike Americans, their idea of patriotism is caring for their fellow Swiss citizens.

I'd rather have the government manage healthcare, then have it controlled by pure greed as it is now.

It seems that what you are saying is that the only possible "compassion" is the one defined as YOU see it.

YOU'D rather have government-managed healthcare. While you're being all "compassionate to your fellow Americans", how about you scrape up a smidgen of understanding for the large numbers of people who don't want what you want, and don't appreciate being forced to have it instead of what they DO want, just because YOU want it?

Amazingly enough, airily waving off anyone else who wants different things than you as "greedy" and therefore deciding they can just be ignored and forced to adhere to your "superior, compassionate" plans is not only not going to work, it makes you a far greedier and more selfish person than you accuse them of being.

Sure, I supposed to have lot's of compassion for people who have no compassion whatsoever.

The greedy people I was referring to are the people in the healthcare, pharmaceutical and insurance industries that cause American healthcare cost to be astronomically high. If it weren't for those people there would be no need for socialized healthcare.
What about the govt? I have heard healthcare was fine until the govt got involved. Just like many other things...
Have you considered that? Does your ideology allow you to?
 
Lottery
Free college and not forcing anyone to pay for it. Imagine that!

So what's the big difference between running a lottery and imposing a tax?

Taxation is being honest and upfront, the lottery is taking advantage of stupid people.

If you don't think so, then I'll give you 20 chances to guess my phone number. Don't think that you'll succeed.

You have a one in 10,000,000 chance of guessing my phone number. That's alot more probable than winning the lottery.
Who gives a shit? Nobody is being forced to take care of other people.
Goddamn, can you ******* hacks EVER be satisfied?
As our country just continues to get worse and worse, stupid. Change the channel.
WTF are you about, you senile old goat?
And it ain't getting better with more Giant tax cuts for the rich and giant corporations and crappy minimum wage jobs....
Demise of the American Middle Class In Numbers.

Over the past 35 years the American dream has gradually disappeared. The process was slow, so most people didn’t notice. They just worked a few more hours, borrowed a little more and cut back on non-essentials. But looking at the numbers and comparing them over long time periods, it is obvious that things have changed drastically. Here are the details:

1. WORKERS PRODUCE MORE BUT THE GAINS GO TO BUSINESS.

Over the past 63 years worker productivity has grown by 2.0% per year.

But after 1980, workers received a smaller share every year. Labor’s share of income (1992 = 100%):

1950 = 101%
1960 = 105%
1970 = 105%
1980 = 105% – Reagan
1990 = 100%
2000 = 96%
2007 = 92%

A 13% drop since 1980

2. THE TOP 10% GET A LARGER SHARE.

Share of National Income going to Top 10%:

1950 = 35%
1960 = 34%
1970 = 34%
1980 = 34% – Reagan
1990 = 40%
2000 = 47%
2007 = 50%

An increase of 16% since Reagan.

3. WORKERS COMPENSATED FOR THE LOSS OF INCOME BY SPENDING THEIR SAVINGS.

The savings Rose up to Reagan and fell during and after.

1950 = 6.0%
1960 = 7.0%
1970 = 8.5%
1980 = 10.0% – Reagan
1982 = 11.2% – Peak
1990 = 7.0%
2000 = 2.0%
2006 = -1.1% (Negative = withdrawing from savings)

A 12.3% drop after Reagan.

4. WORKERS ALSO BORROWED TO MAKE UP FOR THE LOSS.

Household Debt as percentage of GDP:

1965 = 46%
1970 = 45%
1980 = 50% – Reagan
1990 = 61%
2000 = 69%
2007 = 95%

A 45% increase after 1980.

5. SO THE GAP BETWEEN THE RICHEST AND THE POOREST HAS GROWN.

Gap Between the Share of Capital Income earned by the top 1%
and the bottom 80%:

1980 = 10%
2003 = 56%

A 5.6 times increase.

6. AND THE AMERICAN DREAM IS GONE.

The Probably of Moving Up from the Bottom 40% to the Top 40%:

1945 = 12%
1958 = 6%
1990 = 3%
2000 = 2%

A 10% Decrease.

Links:

1 = ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.requests/pf/totalf1.txt
1 = https://www.clevelandfed.org/Research/PolicyDis/No7Nov04.pdf
1 = Clipboard01.jpg (image)
2 – http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/blog/09/04/27/CongratulationstoEmmanuelSaez/
3 = http://www.demos.org/inequality/images/charts/uspersonalsaving_thumb.gif
3 = U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis (BEA)
4 = Federated Prudent Bear Fund (A): Overview
4 = The Fed - Financial Accounts of the United States - Z.1 - Current Release
5/6 = 15 Mind-Blowing Facts About Wealth And Inequality In America

Overview = http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2010062415/reagan-revolution-home-roost-charts
WTF is wrong with you?
We were discussing free college and here comes your retarded ass :dunno:
 
Lottery
Free college and not forcing anyone to pay for it. Imagine that!

So what's the big difference between running a lottery and imposing a tax?

Taxation is being honest and upfront, the lottery is taking advantage of stupid people.

If you don't think so, then I'll give you 20 chances to guess my phone number. Don't think that you'll succeed.

You have a one in 10,000,000 chance of guessing my phone number. That's alot more probable than winning the lottery.
Who gives a shit? Nobody is being forced to take care of other people.
Goddamn, can you ******* hacks EVER be satisfied?
As our country just continues to get worse and worse, stupid. Change the channel.
WTF are you about, you senile old goat?
And it ain't getting better with more Giant tax cuts for the rich and giant corporations and crappy minimum wage jobs....
Demise of the American Middle Class In Numbers.

Over the past 35 years the American dream has gradually disappeared. The process was slow, so most people didn’t notice. They just worked a few more hours, borrowed a little more and cut back on non-essentials. But looking at the numbers and comparing them over long time periods, it is obvious that things have changed drastically. Here are the details:

1. WORKERS PRODUCE MORE BUT THE GAINS GO TO BUSINESS.

Over the past 63 years worker productivity has grown by 2.0% per year.

But after 1980, workers received a smaller share every year. Labor’s share of income (1992 = 100%):

1950 = 101%
1960 = 105%
1970 = 105%
1980 = 105% – Reagan
1990 = 100%
2000 = 96%
2007 = 92%

A 13% drop since 1980

2. THE TOP 10% GET A LARGER SHARE.

Share of National Income going to Top 10%:

1950 = 35%
1960 = 34%
1970 = 34%
1980 = 34% – Reagan
1990 = 40%
2000 = 47%
2007 = 50%

An increase of 16% since Reagan.

3. WORKERS COMPENSATED FOR THE LOSS OF INCOME BY SPENDING THEIR SAVINGS.

The savings Rose up to Reagan and fell during and after.

1950 = 6.0%
1960 = 7.0%
1970 = 8.5%
1980 = 10.0% – Reagan
1982 = 11.2% – Peak
1990 = 7.0%
2000 = 2.0%
2006 = -1.1% (Negative = withdrawing from savings)

A 12.3% drop after Reagan.

4. WORKERS ALSO BORROWED TO MAKE UP FOR THE LOSS.

Household Debt as percentage of GDP:

1965 = 46%
1970 = 45%
1980 = 50% – Reagan
1990 = 61%
2000 = 69%
2007 = 95%

A 45% increase after 1980.

5. SO THE GAP BETWEEN THE RICHEST AND THE POOREST HAS GROWN.

Gap Between the Share of Capital Income earned by the top 1%
and the bottom 80%:

1980 = 10%
2003 = 56%

A 5.6 times increase.

6. AND THE AMERICAN DREAM IS GONE.

The Probably of Moving Up from the Bottom 40% to the Top 40%:

1945 = 12%
1958 = 6%
1990 = 3%
2000 = 2%

A 10% Decrease.

Links:

1 = ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.requests/pf/totalf1.txt
1 = https://www.clevelandfed.org/Research/PolicyDis/No7Nov04.pdf
1 = Clipboard01.jpg (image)
2 – http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/blog/09/04/27/CongratulationstoEmmanuelSaez/
3 = http://www.demos.org/inequality/images/charts/uspersonalsaving_thumb.gif
3 = U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis (BEA)
4 = Federated Prudent Bear Fund (A): Overview
4 = The Fed - Financial Accounts of the United States - Z.1 - Current Release
5/6 = 15 Mind-Blowing Facts About Wealth And Inequality In America

Overview = http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2010062415/reagan-revolution-home-roost-charts


This is greed! You want what other’s have worked for. Get off your ass and go earn your own.
 
In another thread, a poster brought up the Singapore system. It seemed very well thought out. I'm a republican too, but our health care is a disaster. Honestly, I think our political system is too fractured to come up with a government solution. I'm almost always against big universal plans, but I'll admit they are not impossible. The problem is you need to be unified to come up with something halfway intelligent like the Singapore system, and we are definitely not that.


Whenever American propose socialized healthcare, we act like we're the first country in the world to do it. We come up with zany ideas on how to do it.

There's plenty of countries we could study and find out what works and what doesn't. We could create a great healthcare system based on those models, but instead we just play this stupid game.

Except that we're the only country that's just like us.

Who would you like us to study and apply to our situation? Some tiny European/Scandinavian country with a fraction of our population and almost total homogeneity? Some other country with a vastly different culture that has no concept of individual freedom such as American citizens take for granted?

Be specific.

Homogeneity and culture should have NOTHING to do with healthcare - unless your a xenophobe and a racist.

The scale of economies may be something that should be taken in account in modeling an American system, but given the number of countries that have successfully implemented socialized healthcare, we can certainly create a successful system.
Like how our inept "leaders" handled SS and medicaid?
no those are examples of which there are millions of Democrats helping people and the GOP sabotaging it, super duper.
 
Universal healthcare, sure but don't ask me to pay YOUR share of the cost. I tell you what, add up the total cost and divide it evenly by every man, woman, and child in America THEN ask them if they are willing to pay their share. Here I'll save you the time, the answer will be **** no!
 
Last edited:
First off, for those that know me...I am a conservative.
I do ask the question in sincerity.
Last year with health premiums, and healthcare bills, my wife and I spent $7,040 for the two of us.
Then add in the employers portion of premium and that totals up to roughly $11,000.
Even with that, we are well below the average cost the average American pays.
So, would I pay out say... $600 a month in taxes, and my employer in lieu of paying premiums, pay another $400 a month? Instead of paying an insurer?
Yes, yes I would.
But only if the care was equally as good.
And would it be?
How would we, as a nation, pay for the bums and lazy asses who won't work?
Should a "health tax" be income specific? So someone who makes $250,000 a year would pay a great deal more than a $50,000 a year person? Would that work?

One thing is for certain. The current system is not working well. We are paying more and more and more to insurers who are raising deductibles and increasing premiums while covering less.
What fix is there?

Socialized healthcare was first implemented in Germany by Bismark at the end of the 19th century. Since then there's been dozens of countries that have successfully implemented socialized healthcare. It's not a question of if or even how it can be done. We have lot's of examples to go by.

What we have is one group of people that are making a fortune because of the extreme over pricing of American healthcare, and another group of mindless people who are fanatically against socialized healthcare just because they view it as a 'socialist' or 'liberal'.

The percentage of people who can work but will not is tiny. It is grossly exaggerated. We by far have always had more of a problem because people want to work and can not find a job, or people who do work and are so grossly underpaid that they still have to rely on government support.

As far as a healthcare tax, we only have to look at the dozen or so other countries and see how they do it. I doubt that the wealthy Swiss are crying over their healthcare tax.

This simple fact is, we're not like other countries. The reason we can't have universal health care, the reason we don't want important social functions co-opted by government in general, is because we have a very diverse culture. We simply don't have the consensus necessary to successfully nationalize things like health care. Some people think of this as a "bug". I see it as a feature.

It seems that what your saying is that Americans have no compassion for their fellow American because we are so diverse. I know some ridiculously wealthy Swiss people who are fanatically patriotic. However, unlike Americans, their idea of patriotism is caring for their fellow Swiss citizens.

I'd rather have the government manage healthcare, then have it controlled by pure greed as it is now.

It seems that what you are saying is that the only possible "compassion" is the one defined as YOU see it.

YOU'D rather have government-managed healthcare. While you're being all "compassionate to your fellow Americans", how about you scrape up a smidgen of understanding for the large numbers of people who don't want what you want, and don't appreciate being forced to have it instead of what they DO want, just because YOU want it?

Amazingly enough, airily waving off anyone else who wants different things than you as "greedy" and therefore deciding they can just be ignored and forced to adhere to your "superior, compassionate" plans is not only not going to work, it makes you a far greedier and more selfish person than you accuse them of being.

Sure, I supposed to have lot's of compassion for people who have no compassion whatsoever.

The greedy people I was referring to are the people in the healthcare, pharmaceutical and insurance industries that cause American healthcare cost to be astronomically high. If it weren't for those people there would be no need for socialized healthcare.
Ewe want them to give it to ewe free?
 
In another thread, a poster brought up the Singapore system. It seemed very well thought out. I'm a republican too, but our health care is a disaster. Honestly, I think our political system is too fractured to come up with a government solution. I'm almost always against big universal plans, but I'll admit they are not impossible. The problem is you need to be unified to come up with something halfway intelligent like the Singapore system, and we are definitely not that.


Whenever American propose socialized healthcare, we act like we're the first country in the world to do it. We come up with zany ideas on how to do it.

There's plenty of countries we could study and find out what works and what doesn't. We could create a great healthcare system based on those models, but instead we just play this stupid game.

Except that we're the only country that's just like us.

Who would you like us to study and apply to our situation? Some tiny European/Scandinavian country with a fraction of our population and almost total homogeneity? Some other country with a vastly different culture that has no concept of individual freedom such as American citizens take for granted?

Be specific.

Homogeneity and culture should have NOTHING to do with healthcare - unless your a xenophobe and a racist.

The scale of economies may be something that should be taken in account in modeling an American system, but given the number of countries that have successfully implemented socialized healthcare, we can certainly create a successful system.

"Should have nothing to do with healthcare" - because why? You said so?

You can get over right now this desire to carelessly brand anyone who doesn't think your wishes imposed upon 300 million other human beings as "greedy", "xenophobic", "racist", or whatever other random insults you want to throw out in a lame attempt to make us feel ashamed for not living up to YOUR high standards . . . as though any of us give a fat rat's ass about having the likes of YOU think well of us. Hold your breath waiting for that.

Culture has EVERYTHING to do with what a group of people decides their priorities are, and how they're going to achieve them. And homogeneity has a lot to do with what kind of culture that group of people has.

The United States has a huge population, and it's very diverse. There are not a lot of things that are universally considered to be important priorities in the United States, and of those few things, there's even less agreement on how to achieve them.

Put bluntly, Americans don't think the same way that Norwegians do. And what works for Norway, a country with less population than Los Angeles county, wouldn't necessarily work for the United States. You can't just take an idea that works great for 5 people and apply it to 5 million people and expect it to have the same effect.

So no, there is no "given the number of countries that have done it, we should be able to" here. Name me a country that is comparable to the United States. Do not name me a bunch of different countries who collectively STILL only add up to a fraction of the United States.

And do not ******* tell me that we have to just blow off and ignore the differences between our people and theirs because YOU, oh mighty wise arbiter of the universe, have decided that those differences are "bad" and "immoral" and therefore don't count.

You arrogant ass napkin.
 
Universal healthcare, sure but don't ask me to pay YOUR share of the cost. I tell you what, add up the total cost and divide it evenly by every man, woman, and child in America THEN ask them if they are willing to pay their share. Here's I'll save you the time, the answer will be **** no!
AMEN brother! :clap2:
 
The amazing this about Conservatives, is that the vast majority of them would benefit greatly from socialized healthcare.

Yet their absolute lack of compassion for their fellow Americans - their hatred for anyone that's different from them is so strong that the refuse to do what's best for themselves. Everyone would benefit from socialized healthcare except a few people in the healthcare industry - who would still be making very good money.

They are 'cutting off their noses to spite their face" in the most extreme way conceivable.

They're just plain idiotic.
 
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In another thread, a poster brought up the Singapore system. It seemed very well thought out. I'm a republican too, but our health care is a disaster. Honestly, I think our political system is too fractured to come up with a government solution. I'm almost always against big universal plans, but I'll admit they are not impossible. The problem is you need to be unified to come up with something halfway intelligent like the Singapore system, and we are definitely not that.


Whenever American propose socialized healthcare, we act like we're the first country in the world to do it. We come up with zany ideas on how to do it.

There's plenty of countries we could study and find out what works and what doesn't. We could create a great healthcare system based on those models, but instead we just play this stupid game.

Except that we're the only country that's just like us.

Who would you like us to study and apply to our situation? Some tiny European/Scandinavian country with a fraction of our population and almost total homogeneity? Some other country with a vastly different culture that has no concept of individual freedom such as American citizens take for granted?

Be specific.

Homogeneity and culture should have NOTHING to do with healthcare - unless your a xenophobe and a racist.

The scale of economies may be something that should be taken in account in modeling an American system, but given the number of countries that have successfully implemented socialized healthcare, we can certainly create a successful system.

"Should have nothing to do with healthcare" - because why? You said so?

You can get over right now this desire to carelessly brand anyone who doesn't think your wishes imposed upon 300 million other human beings as "greedy", "xenophobic", "racist", or whatever other random insults you want to throw out in a lame attempt to make us feel ashamed for not living up to YOUR high standards . . . as though any of us give a fat rat's ass about having the likes of YOU think well of us. Hold your breath waiting for that.

Culture has EVERYTHING to do with what a group of people decides their priorities are, and how they're going to achieve them. And homogeneity has a lot to do with what kind of culture that group of people has.

The United States has a huge population, and it's very diverse. There are not a lot of things that are universally considered to be important priorities in the United States, and of those few things, there's even less agreement on how to achieve them.

Put bluntly, Americans don't think the same way that Norwegians do. And what works for Norway, a country with less population than Los Angeles county, wouldn't necessarily work for the United States. You can't just take an idea that works great for 5 people and apply it to 5 million people and expect it to have the same effect.

So no, there is no "given the number of countries that have done it, we should be able to" here. Name me a country that is comparable to the United States. Do not name me a bunch of different countries who collectively STILL only add up to a fraction of the United States.

And do not ******* tell me that we have to just blow off and ignore the differences between our people and theirs because YOU, oh mighty wise arbiter of the universe, have decided that those differences are "bad" and "immoral" and therefore don't count.

You arrogant ass napkin.

Your belief that homogeneity and culture should determine healthcare is so ridiculous it's barely worth discussing this with you.

If your attitude is that because your an American you have the right to be an obstinate, immoral asshole, then you are actually right. But all that means is that any decent person should ignore your opinions. You are a sub-human troll and nothing more.

Forgive all of us that have evolved beyond being self-centered assholes - but we will not allow you to stop human social evolution.
 
The amazing this about Conservatives, is that the vast majority of them would benefit greatly from socialized healthcare.

Yet their absolute lack of compassion for their fellow Americans - their hatred for anyone that's different from them is so string that the refuse to do what's best for themselves. Everyone would benefit from socialized healthcare except a few people in the healthcare industry - who would still be making very good money.

They are 'cutting off their noses to spite their face" in the most extreme way conceivable.

They're just plain idiotic.
Everyone would benefit from the govt handing out a thousand dollars a day as well.. :rolleyes:
I tell you what man, get an amendment passed to our Constitution, and we will talk about it further.
 
So what's the big difference between running a lottery and imposing a tax?

Taxation is being honest and upfront, the lottery is taking advantage of stupid people.

If you don't think so, then I'll give you 20 chances to guess my phone number. Don't think that you'll succeed.

You have a one in 10,000,000 chance of guessing my phone number. That's alot more probable than winning the lottery.
Who gives a shit? Nobody is being forced to take care of other people.
Goddamn, can you ******* hacks EVER be satisfied?
As our country just continues to get worse and worse, stupid. Change the channel.
WTF are you about, you senile old goat?
And it ain't getting better with more Giant tax cuts for the rich and giant corporations and crappy minimum wage jobs....
Demise of the American Middle Class In Numbers.

Over the past 35 years the American dream has gradually disappeared. The process was slow, so most people didn’t notice. They just worked a few more hours, borrowed a little more and cut back on non-essentials. But looking at the numbers and comparing them over long time periods, it is obvious that things have changed drastically. Here are the details:

1. WORKERS PRODUCE MORE BUT THE GAINS GO TO BUSINESS.

Over the past 63 years worker productivity has grown by 2.0% per year.

But after 1980, workers received a smaller share every year. Labor’s share of income (1992 = 100%):

1950 = 101%
1960 = 105%
1970 = 105%
1980 = 105% – Reagan
1990 = 100%
2000 = 96%
2007 = 92%

A 13% drop since 1980

2. THE TOP 10% GET A LARGER SHARE.

Share of National Income going to Top 10%:

1950 = 35%
1960 = 34%
1970 = 34%
1980 = 34% – Reagan
1990 = 40%
2000 = 47%
2007 = 50%

An increase of 16% since Reagan.

3. WORKERS COMPENSATED FOR THE LOSS OF INCOME BY SPENDING THEIR SAVINGS.

The savings Rose up to Reagan and fell during and after.

1950 = 6.0%
1960 = 7.0%
1970 = 8.5%
1980 = 10.0% – Reagan
1982 = 11.2% – Peak
1990 = 7.0%
2000 = 2.0%
2006 = -1.1% (Negative = withdrawing from savings)

A 12.3% drop after Reagan.

4. WORKERS ALSO BORROWED TO MAKE UP FOR THE LOSS.

Household Debt as percentage of GDP:

1965 = 46%
1970 = 45%
1980 = 50% – Reagan
1990 = 61%
2000 = 69%
2007 = 95%

A 45% increase after 1980.

5. SO THE GAP BETWEEN THE RICHEST AND THE POOREST HAS GROWN.

Gap Between the Share of Capital Income earned by the top 1%
and the bottom 80%:

1980 = 10%
2003 = 56%

A 5.6 times increase.

6. AND THE AMERICAN DREAM IS GONE.

The Probably of Moving Up from the Bottom 40% to the Top 40%:

1945 = 12%
1958 = 6%
1990 = 3%
2000 = 2%

A 10% Decrease.

Links:

1 = ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.requests/pf/totalf1.txt
1 = https://www.clevelandfed.org/Research/PolicyDis/No7Nov04.pdf
1 = Clipboard01.jpg (image)
2 – http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/blog/09/04/27/CongratulationstoEmmanuelSaez/
3 = http://www.demos.org/inequality/images/charts/uspersonalsaving_thumb.gif
3 = U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis (BEA)
4 = Federated Prudent Bear Fund (A): Overview
4 = The Fed - Financial Accounts of the United States - Z.1 - Current Release
5/6 = 15 Mind-Blowing Facts About Wealth And Inequality In America

Overview = http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2010062415/reagan-revolution-home-roost-charts
WTF is wrong with you?
We were discussing free college and here comes your retarded ass :dunno:
Breaking for s*** head dupes: a flat tax system is fantastic for the rich and screws the rest like you and your family and friends and acquaintances d u h.
 
The amazing this about Conservatives, is that the vast majority of them would benefit greatly from socialized healthcare.

Yet their absolute lack of compassion for their fellow Americans - their hatred for anyone that's different from them is so strong that the refuse to do what's best for themselves. Everyone would benefit from socialized healthcare except a few people in the healthcare industry - who would still be making very good money.

They are 'cutting off their noses to spite their face" in the most extreme way conceivable.

They're just plain idiotic.
You hate conservatives. Admit it? BTW how many homeless are you housing and feeding?
 

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