If you need religion to be good

[Delta4Embassy]

If you need religion to be good, a promised paradisical afterlife, threat of hell if you're naughty, you're already evil and screwed.

Humanists like myself know being good IS good. But we don't behave good and proper because we think we'll be rewarded after we die. We know we'll be rewarded while we're still alive. Good begets good, evil begets evil. If you're only good because you think you'll be rewarded, you're a horrible example of your faith. Would you be good without the concept of heaven or threat of hell? Are you that mentally unhinged?

 

[Foxfyre]

If you need religion to be good, a promised paradisical afterlife, threat of hell if you're naughty, you're already evil and screwed.

Humanists like myself know being good IS good. But we don't behave good and proper because we think we'll be rewarded after we die. We know we'll be rewarded while we're still alive. Good begets good, evil begets evil. If you're only good because you think you'll be rewarded, you're a horrible example of your faith. Would you be good without the concept of heaven or threat of hell? Are you that mentally unhinged?

It all depends on whether you are speaking of a religion that teaches salvation or reward via good works, or a pure Christian faith that teaches a salvation by the grace of God's love for a people none of whom are good enough to merit heaven by our own works. On the other hand, those assured of eternal life by the grace of God will usually do their best to do good and live righteously because of their love of a God of grace and gratitude for that grace.

But how does a Humanist as you describe yourself know what being good is?

 

[Derideo_Te]

Fear based religion is a contradiction. They preach about the "love of God" while threatening "eternal damnation" if you don't comply. That is a form of cognitive dissonance. Rational people understand that doing what is right is good and doing what is wrong will have very real consequences in this life. There is no need for any religious threat to make them into "good" people.

 

[Foxfyre]

Fear based religion is a contradiction. They preach about the "love of God" while threatening "eternal damnation" if you don't comply. That is a form of cognitive dissonance. Rational people understand that doing what is right is good and doing what is wrong will have very real consequences in this life. There is no need for any religious threat to make them into "good" people.

But again the question I posed to the OP. How do you know what is good?

 

[Delta4Embassy]

If you need religion to be good, a promised paradisical afterlife, threat of hell if you're naughty, you're already evil and screwed.

Humanists like myself know being good IS good. But we don't behave good and proper because we think we'll be rewarded after we die. We know we'll be rewarded while we're still alive. Good begets good, evil begets evil. If you're only good because you think you'll be rewarded, you're a horrible example of your faith. Would you be good without the concept of heaven or threat of hell? Are you that mentally unhinged?

It all depends on whether you are speaking of a religion that teaches salvation or reward via good works, or a pure Christian faith that teaches a salvation by the grace of God's love for a people none of whom are good enough to merit heaven by our own works. On the other hand, those assured of eternal life by the grace of God will usually do their best to do good and live righteously because of their love of a God of grace and gratitude for that grace.

But how does a Humanist as you describe yourself know what being good is?

You know something's good if you'd enjoy another person doing it to you, for you, etc. ...Well, assuming you're mentally normal and not a masochist or something.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

I've often explained things as being good if you'd do them out in the open without thought of others seeing you. As with private messages, if you'll only say it in private, I don't wanna read it.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Fear based religion is a contradiction. They preach about the "love of God" while threatening "eternal damnation" if you don't comply. That is a form of cognitive dissonance. Rational people understand that doing what is right is good and doing what is wrong will have very real consequences in this life. There is no need for any religious threat to make them into "good" people.

But again the question I posed to the OP. How do you know what is good?

The Golden Rule!

And no, that is not the property of religion. Besides the fact that it is in every religion it is also the standard by which society operates.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Fear based religion is a contradiction. They preach about the "love of God" while threatening "eternal damnation" if you don't comply. That is a form of cognitive dissonance. Rational people understand that doing what is right is good and doing what is wrong will have very real consequences in this life. There is no need for any religious threat to make them into "good" people.

But again the question I posed to the OP. How do you know what is good?

The Golden Rule!

And no, that is not the property of religion. Besides the fact that it is in every religion it is also the standard by which society operates.

Golden Rule didn't come from Christianity. It's actually found in many different religions, though as a Jew, Jesus was quoting the version in Judaism.

Love and Brotherhood

26. To love all human beings who are of the covenant (Lev. 19:18) (CCA60). See Love and Brotherhood.
27. Not to stand by idly when a human life is in danger (Lev. 19:16) (CCN82). See Love and Brotherhood.
28. Not to wrong any one in speech (Lev. 25:17) (CCN48). See Speech and Lashon Ha-Ra.
29. Not to carry tales (Lev. 19:16) (CCN77). See Speech and Lashon Ha-Ra.
30. Not to cherish hatred in one's heart (Lev. 19:17) (CCN78). See Love and Brotherhood.
31. Not to take revenge (Lev. 19:18) (CCN80).
32. Not to bear a grudge (Lev. 19:18) (CCN81).
33. Not to put any Jew to shame (Lev. 19:17) (CCN79).
34. Not to curse any other Israelite (Lev. 19:14) (by implication: if you may not curse those who cannot hear, you certainly may not curse those who can) (CCN45).
35. Not to give occasion to the simple-minded to stumble on the road (Lev. 19:14) (this includes doing anything that will cause another to sin) (CCN76).
36. To rebuke the sinner (Lev. 19:17) (CCA72).
37. To relieve a neighbor of his burden and help to unload his beast (Ex. 23:5) (CCA70). See Love and Brotherhood.
38. To assist in replacing the load upon a neighbor's beast (Deut. 22:4) (CCA71). See Love and Brotherhood.
39. Not to leave a beast, that has fallen down beneath its burden, unaided (Deut. 22:4) (CCN183). See Love and Brotherhood.
Judaism 101 A List of the 613 Mitzvot Commandments

 

[Avatar4321]

you're right. You don't behave good because of a promise of reward. You aren't good whatsoever.

and religion cannot make man good. Only Christ can. Religion can only help us come to Christ

 

[Foxfyre]

If you need religion to be good, a promised paradisical afterlife, threat of hell if you're naughty, you're already evil and screwed.

Humanists like myself know being good IS good. But we don't behave good and proper because we think we'll be rewarded after we die. We know we'll be rewarded while we're still alive. Good begets good, evil begets evil. If you're only good because you think you'll be rewarded, you're a horrible example of your faith. Would you be good without the concept of heaven or threat of hell? Are you that mentally unhinged?

It all depends on whether you are speaking of a religion that teaches salvation or reward via good works, or a pure Christian faith that teaches a salvation by the grace of God's love for a people none of whom are good enough to merit heaven by our own works. On the other hand, those assured of eternal life by the grace of God will usually do their best to do good and live righteously because of their love of a God of grace and gratitude for that grace.

But how does a Humanist as you describe yourself know what being good is?

You know something's good if you'd enjoy another person doing it to you, for you, etc. ...Well, assuming you're mentally normal and not a masochist or something.

So the alcoholic or drug addict enjoys somebody furnishing him/her booze or drugs. The freeloader enjoys having the government provide him/her with the basic necessities of life so he/she doesn't have to work for them. The glutton enjoys somebody buying him/her ice cream and French fries, etc. The disconnected parent enjoys having others look after/raising his/her kids. The irresponsible person enjoys having somebody cover or hide his/her mistakes. All would be deemed good?

I'm not being facetious or contentious here. But it would seem that logically there has to be some greater basis than pleasure or enjoyment or appreciation for determining what is good and what is evil. And do you honestly believe you will be rewarded for any good that you do while you are still alive? Is that the only motive for being 'good'?

 

[September]

The Golden Rule!

And no, that is not the property of religion. Besides the fact that it is in every religion it is also the standard by which society operates.

The "fact" that "it is in every religion"?

What the Hell are you talking about

The "Golden Rule" is not in "every religion"

​

 

[Derideo_Te]

The Golden Rule!

And no, that is not the property of religion. Besides the fact that it is in every religion it is also the standard by which society operates.

The "fact" that "it is in every religion"?

What the Hell are you talking about

The "Golden Rule" is not in "every religion"

​

Versions of the Golden Rule in 21 world religions

Ethics Of Reciprocity like the Golden Rule and the Wiccan Rede Do Not Work

The Golden Rule The Same In All Religions

 

[September]

You made the outrageous claim that it is a fact that the Golden rule is in every religion.

It may be in many of them, but it is definitely not in all of them.
​

 

[Derideo_Te]

You made the outrageous claim that it is a fact that the Golden rule is in every religion.

It may be in many of them, but it is definitely not in all of them.
​

In which case prove me wrong by citing the religions in which the golden rule does not exist.

 

[Foxfyre]

I've often explained things as being good if you'd do them out in the open without thought of others seeing you. As with private messages, if you'll only say it in private, I don't wanna read it.

Again--and I'm partly playing devil's advocate here for the purpose of an interesting discussion --you think if a person's actions are not concealed, then they are good? Does that hold true for pot parties or drinking parties where people openly use or drink to excess? Does that hold true for the guy who goes to the casino to gamble away the kids' milk money? Does that hold true for the guy who speeds through the school zone?

I am more persuaded that a measure of person's character is how they treat others when they think nobody will know it is them, or how people behave in general when nobody is looking and not so much what they do in public.

But where do you think our sense of right and wrong, virtue and evil, good and bad comes from? What tells us this is good and that is bad? Derideo_te says use the Golden Rule as a guideline. That is all well and good unless we do for others what we want but is bad for us.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

I've often explained things as being good if you'd do them out in the open without thought of others seeing you. As with private messages, if you'll only say it in private, I don't wanna read it.

Again--and I'm partly playing devil's advocate here for the purpose of an interesting discussion --you think if a person's actions are not concealed, then they are good? Does that hold true for pot parties or drinking parties where people openly use or drink to excess? Does that hold true for the guy who goes to the casino to gamble away the kids' milk money? Does that hold true for the guy who speeds through the school zone?

I am more persuaded that a measure of person's character is how they treat others when they think nobody will know it is them, or how people behave in general when nobody is looking and not so much what they do in public.

But where do you think our sense of right and wrong, virtue and evil, good and bad comes from? What tells us this is good and that is bad? Derideo_te says use the Golden Rule as a guideline. That is all well and good unless we do for others what we want but is bad for us.

I tend not to think in good/evil terms. I don't believe good and evil even exist for starters. Rather actions and consequences do. Using my 3 times weekly baking giveaway as an example, I know giving free cookies and cupcakes to people is good because they always smile and say lots of nice things to me when I do. That informs me it's "good" because it makes me feel in such a way that I like the feeling and not dislike it as with say a toothache. (rubs jaw)

 

[September]

You made the outrageous claim that it is a fact that the Golden rule is in every religion.

It may be in many of them, but it is definitely not in all of them.
​

In which case prove me wrong by citing the religions in which the golden rule does not exist.

-Thelema
-Countless forms of Paganism
***-All Left Hand Path religions

Just to name a few.

The world is a big place and holds many religions... too many to count and too many to learn. Many of them do not care for this "golden rule".

​

 

[Foxfyre]

I've often explained things as being good if you'd do them out in the open without thought of others seeing you. As with private messages, if you'll only say it in private, I don't wanna read it.

Again--and I'm partly playing devil's advocate here for the purpose of an interesting discussion --you think if a person's actions are not concealed, then they are good? Does that hold true for pot parties or drinking parties where people openly use or drink to excess? Does that hold true for the guy who goes to the casino to gamble away the kids' milk money? Does that hold true for the guy who speeds through the school zone?

I am more persuaded that a measure of person's character is how they treat others when they think nobody will know it is them, or how people behave in general when nobody is looking and not so much what they do in public.

But where do you think our sense of right and wrong, virtue and evil, good and bad comes from? What tells us this is good and that is bad? Derideo_te says use the Golden Rule as a guideline. That is all well and good unless we do for others what we want but is bad for us.

I tend not to think in good/evil terms. I don't believe good and evil even exist for starters. Rather actions and consequences do. Using my 3 times weekly baking giveaway as an example, I know giving free cookies and cupcakes to people is good because they always smile and say lots of nice things to me when I do. That informs me it's "good" because it makes me feel in such a way that I like the feeling and not dislike it as with say a toothache. (rubs jaw)

I can appreciate that even though I teach that not everything that feels good and/or is satisfying is in fact good. To tempt the brittle diabetic with those cookies might feel good and he indeed may smile and say nice things to you, but it may in fact be a very bad thing to do. To offer a cigarette to somebody might be a very bad thing to do, most especially if they are in the worst withdrawal cravings of quitting and at their weakest to resist the temptation.

But my argument is nitpicking what I think your intent was. And yes, in most cases it is pleasant, satisfying, and feels good to be generous, unselfish, accommodating, etc. and enjoy the positive response from others when you do.

But why? What makes it pleasant? Satisfying? Feel good? There are cultures that would not see it in the same way. There are the bah humbug Scrooges in the world who do not share your experience. So where does what you see as 'good' come from?

 

[September]

Good and Evil are subjective, obviously.
​

 

[koshergrl]

Fear based religion is a contradiction. They preach about the "love of God" while threatening "eternal damnation" if you don't comply. That is a form of cognitive dissonance. Rational people understand that doing what is right is good and doing what is wrong will have very real consequences in this life. There is no need for any religious threat to make them into "good" people.

But again the question I posed to the OP. How do you know what is good?

Trust me, he doesn't. This particular poster believes pornography is good.

So meh.