Zone1 If God Is All Powerful, All Knowing, and All Loving, Then Why Didn't He Create Us To Be Perfect Like Himself

[surada]

Then either he doesn't have the power to oppose himself or he simply chooses not to oppose himself. I would vote that he chooses.

I believe God and all intelligence is self-existing. Either you believe it or you don't. No reason to further exchange opinions. Jesus said "Ye are gods" to whom the word of God came. I believe Jesus above you (see John 10:33-36 also Psalms 82:6). Yes, I am also one of God's creatures but also his offspring (see Acts 17:29).


Yes. I believe that God created our spirits from eternal intelligence and spirit matter. He later created Adam from the dust of the earth and Eve from Adam's rib and put their spirits within them and gave them the power to procreate their own offspring.

How did the Mormons get John 10: 33-36 so wrong?

Jesus answers them “Many good works I have shown you from my Father. For which of those works do you stone me?” The Jews answered him “For a good work we do not stone you, but for blasphemy, and because you, being a man, make yourself God”.

 

[ChemEngineer]

The Impotent Love Their Imaginary Omnipotent

Atheists are clever with words, but that is where their cleverness ends.
They relentlessly claim to be "intellectual" and "scientific" but these lies are shredded by the fact that 85% of Nobel Laureates in science are Christians and Jews.

Irrational Atheism

irrational-atheism.blogspot.com

 

[ding]

Of course God is capable of creating a perfect world. I haven't disputed that. In fact I have stated that God created the kingdom of heaven itself which is perfect. But the issue is not the perfection of a world but the perfection of beings. Adam and Eve were not perfect in the Garden of Eden and did not have a perfect understanding of good and evil. If Adam and Eve were perfect, they would not have fallen but would have chosen never to disobey God's commandments. They were not like God in knowledge, wisdom, understanding, etc. etc.

Yes, you were disputing that God could create a perfect world. It was your evidence for believing God couldn't create matter from nothing.

And were not Adam and Eve perfect before eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil? So according to the account, God created a perfect world with perfect beings. So creating matter from nothing is nothing to God.

 

[ding]

Of course God is capable of creating a perfect world. I haven't disputed that. In fact I have stated that God created the kingdom of heaven itself which is perfect. But the issue is not the perfection of a world but the perfection of beings. Adam and Eve were not perfect in the Garden of Eden and did not have a perfect understanding of good and evil. If Adam and Eve were perfect, they would not have fallen but would have chosen never to disobey God's commandments. They were not like God in knowledge, wisdom, understanding, etc. etc.

Here's another blow to your argument that God can't create matter from nothing. God caused a flood, Jesus calmed the storm. So apparently God can control the weather and elements. And yet we have all kinds of natural disasters today. Are natural disasters which kill innocent lives beyond God's control?

 

[onefour1]

View attachment 890765

Repentance and forgiveness does not come from being a bad person. Otherwise all bad people would repent and enter the kingdom of heaven. The bad doesn't promote the good. Remorse of conscience comes from

You take the Genesis stories literally?

Yes. Do you not? why?

 

[onefour1]

Most of Psalms was borrowed from the Ugarit.

Regardless, Jesus uses the verse in Psalms and repeats it to the Pharisees showing the meaning to be what it is.

 

[onefour1]

KJV The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
What does John 10:33 mean? | BibleRef.com


They threatened to stone Jesus for making himself a God.

Jesus claimed He was the Son of God. The Pharisees thought it blasphemy for Jesus to claim such. Jesus then points out what is written in Psalms 82:6 where, as the God of the Old Testament, He claimed that "Ye are gods". He then tells us that verse mean that He called them gods unto whom the word of God came. He reasoned to the Pharisees that if your law states that your God claimed that all unto who the word of God came were gods, why would they charge him with blasphemy for claiming to be the Son of God.

 

[ding]

Repentance and forgiveness does not come from being a bad person. Otherwise all bad people would repent and enter the kingdom of heaven. The bad doesn't promote the good. Remorse of conscience comes from

No one said bad promotes good. Good coming from bad is logical. History, experience and the OT show that when a people become successful they become proud. Then they forget the things that made them successful (i.e. they forget God) and they fall. But from this fall (i.e. suffering) they remember the things that made them successful (i.e. God) and they change their ways (i.e. repent) and return to the things that made them successful (i.e. remember God) and then they succeed. It's biblical, logical and what happens with some frequency at the nation and individual levels.

 

[ding]

Yes. Do you not? why?

Because the first 11 chapters of the Bible were never intended to be read literally.

 

[onefour1]

Yes, you were disputing that God could create a perfect world. It was your evidence for believing God couldn't create matter from nothing.

Show me the post you are referring to.

And were not Adam and Eve perfect before eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

They were immortal but they were not perfect in knowledge, wisdom, understanding, etc. as I've explained before. If Adam and Eve were perfect, they would not have needed to come to this earth to learn good and evil and experience mortality. If they didn't know good and evil then they were not as perfect as God Himself. Thus Adam and Eve were NOT perfect. Case Closed.

So according to the account, God created a perfect world with perfect beings. So creating matter from nothing is nothing to God.

True I also believe that matter was never created or made according to the revelations of God given to the Prophet Joseph Smith:

Doctrine and Covenants 93:33
33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

Since Adam and Eve were not perfect in the Garden, God did not create them perfect. He probably made them as perfect as he could but their intelligence, since it was not created or made and neither indeed can be, still needed to advance by going through this life's experiences to learn good and evil.

 

[ding]

Show me the post you are referring to.

We are a part of his creation. So perfect world to me means perfect everything which is what the Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve began as, but what you claim was impossible for God to do.

But if you want to contend God is capable of creating a perfect world but not perfect beings then I'm afraid you will have to contend with God causing floods, earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, frigid cold, extreme heat, etc. all of which take innocent lives.

 

[ding]

They were immortal but they were not perfect in knowledge, wisdom, understanding, etc. as I've explained before. If Adam and Eve were perfect, they would not have needed to come to this earth to learn good and evil and experience mortality. If they didn't know good and evil then they were not as perfect as God Himself. Thus Adam and Eve were NOT perfect. Case Closed.

So you are saying God didn't create the Garden of Eden or Adam or Eve to be perfect. God created the Garden of Eden to be flawed. God created Adam to be flawed. And God created Eve to be flawed.

Are you even listening to what you are having to believe? Because by your account God did a pretty bad job of creation.

 

[onefour1]

Here's another blow to your argument that God can't create matter from nothing.

Another? Haven't seen even one yet!

God caused a flood, Jesus calmed the storm. So apparently God can control the weather and elements. And yet we have all kinds of natural disasters today. Are natural disasters which kill innocent lives beyond God's control?

Well, first off I would question, how is this supposed to be a blow to my arguments?

I believe that God can control the weather and elements. What does this have to do with whether God can create intelligence or not? Mankind in their fallen state are capable of giving obedience to God and many do most of the time. Does this mean that mankind is perfect? I do believe that their is intelligence in all things. The intelligences associated with all matter are also capable of obeying God even in a state of imperfection. What exactly is your point?

 

[ding]

True I also believe that matter was never created or made

You seem to be contradicting yourself. You just said it was true that the account in Genesis is saying God created a perfect world with perfect beings. But then you argued that "Since Adam and Eve were not perfect in the Garden, God did not create them perfect."

Which is it? Did Go create a perfect world with perfect beings? Or did God create a perfect world with flawed beings?

 

[ding]

I also believe that matter was never created or made according to the revelations of God given to the Prophet Joseph Smith

Joseph Smith was wrong. Science says otherwise and so does logic. According to his logic all matter and energy must have always have existed and was never created. That's a ridiculous belief. The presence of matter and energy literally creates the presence of space and time and can only become more disordered after that. Matter and energy can never be an eternal source of creating universes.

 

[ding]

Another? Haven't seen even one yet!

Then you haven't been paying attention:

1. Red shift, CMB, Friedman's solution to Einstein's field equation, red shift, FLoT, SLoT, inflation, the existence of paired particles and quantum mechanics all say the universe was created from matter and energy that was not pre-existing.
2. The SLoT precludes matter and energy from being an eternal source for creating universes.
3. Genesis says God did create a perfect world and perfect beings, so God is capable of creating a perfect world with perfect beings.
4. The accounts of the flood and Jesus calming the storm demonstrate God is capable of controlling natural disasters and thus according to your belief is responsible for killing innocent people.

 

[ding]

Well, first off I would question, how is this supposed to be a blow to my arguments?

I believe that God can control the weather and elements. What does this have to do with whether God can create intelligence or not? Mankind in their fallen state are capable of giving obedience to God and many do most of the time. Does this mean that mankind is perfect? I do believe that their is intelligence in all things. The intelligences associated with all matter are also capable of obeying God even in a state of imperfection. What exactly is your point?

My points are...

1. Red shift, CMB, Friedman's solution to Einstein's field equation, red shift, FLoT, SLoT, inflation, the existence of paired particles and quantum mechanics all say the universe was created from matter and energy that was not pre-existing.
2. The SLoT precludes matter and energy from being an eternal source for creating universes.
3. Genesis says God did create a perfect world and perfect beings, so God is capable of creating a perfect world with perfect beings.
4. The accounts of the flood and Jesus calming the storm demonstrate God is capable of controlling natural disasters and thus according to your belief is responsible for killing innocent people.

 

[sparky]

Because the first 11 chapters of the Bible were never intended to be read literally.

Exactly ding

It's a grand metaphor

and you're putting up a rather <informed> debate for those here that simply can not recognize that fact

~S~

 

[onefour1]

Because the first 11 chapters of the Bible were never intended to be read literally.

Where do you get that idea?

No one said bad promotes good.

Then we agree on this point.

Good coming from bad is logical.

Now you need to explain what you mean by "coming from".

History, experience and the OT show that when a people become successful they become proud.

Some become proud but not necessarily everyone. I don't think the success forces them to be proud. They choose to be so.

Then they forget the things that made them successful (i.e. they forget God) and they fall.

Some may forget God but not everyone. I don't think the success forces them to forget God. They choose to not be grateful to God.

But from this fall (i.e. suffering) they remember the things that made them successful (i.e. God) and they change their ways (i.e. repent) and return to the things that made them successful (i.e. remember God) and then they succeed.

I don't think the suffering forces them to think of God. It does bring them to less desirable state and their dissatisfaction may cause them to think over why it happened and they may remember how God blessed them and repent and seek to return to him Not all, given these circumstances, will return to God.

Because of our imperfection and the fact that we cannot become perfect without free will, God places us in this temporary existence of good and evil so as to learn to praise the good and detest the evil. However, not all of us make that choice. Some tend to relish the evil and despise the good. It really comes down to how we, with our imperfect intelligence, process the information of good vs evil and which master we list to obey.

It's biblical, logical and what happens with some frequency at the nation and individual levels.

I agree that good and evil exist and that the experiences we have give us a choice of what we would rather follow. But to say that good comes from bad makes it sound as if you are saying that bad is essential in order to become good. I see evil as the opposite of good and can give us dissatisfaction to where we might choose good over it. However, some tend to love the evil over the good and hold to it. In such cases good does not result from bad. Good and bad give us choices that we can make but do not force the change. Some can hold to good or evil depending on their thoughts and desires without it causing a change and thus saying that good comes from bad is not always true. Conceptually, I don't believe that good or bad can exist without each other. You cannot have good without bad and you cannot have bad without good. Conceptually you cannot create one without creating the other. However, I don't believe with our free will choice, that we must do bad to choose good. I think your understanding is definitely with merit in that we can choose to regret evil after experiencing it and we can choose to become prideful after experiencing good. The feelings of regret and pride can motivate us to make different choices in our lives but they do not force us to do so. If we were to compare this to being created to have a perfect intelligence from the beginning, we would always make the right choices and never make bad ones. As imperfect intelligences, we have to grow and come to know what the best choices are and good and evil help us understand between these two. I don't think that one necessarily brings about the other but they can influence our free choice to help us make a decision.

 

[onefour1]

Because the first 11 chapters of the Bible were never intended to be read literally.

Where does it say not to take these chapters literally?