I will not Bow!

[montelatici]

Jose, if you go back and look at my original again, you'll see that I was conceding the reality of large-scale and wide-ranging genome admixture over the course of 2,000 years, and conceding that today's Jews are a mixture of (1) the original Hebrew strain and (2) the gene-markers of wide-ranging converts to Judaism and (3) other peoples - including blond-haired, blue-eyed types.

Oh, and, I have no need (desperate or otherwise) to 'legitimize' the Jews' presence in Israel with DNA tests, etc.

I'm sure that millions of European Jews who went to the Einzatzgruppen Pits and the Gas Chambers had little or no Hebrew tribal blood in their veins, either.

I'm an Irish-German lapsed Roman Catholic boy from the Chicago metro area and am not a stakeholder in the 'legitimacy-by-blood-inheritance' game.

I'm merely an avid Israel supporter who has a workable layman's understanding of ethnic and racial and genotype admixture over the centuries, and the migrations and driftings of the core racial and ethnic groups of Man, without claiming any particular expertise on the subject.

And, when I refer to the Jewish homeland, I almost exclusively refer to it as the Jews' "ancestral and spiritual" homeland - with the 'spiritual' part conceding by implication that a large percentage of Jews in Israel have little or no genetic (ancestral) connection with the Hebrew tribes of antiquity.

Just so we're clear.

No... the sacrifices and audacity of the people who fought to carve a resurrected Israel out of Old Palestine and who maintain it with their determination and courage, are all the legitimacy that Israel needs in the eyes of many around the world.

In the eyes of most Americans, not many people around the world who have not been conditioned by the media and education system to believe that Europeans had the right to evict most of the indigenous people, except the Palestinian Jews, because their "God" gave the land to them. I could write a book that says God gave me Monaco.

 

[Kondor3]

"...I could write a book that says God gave me Monaco."

When you DO, and when your book has been around for 3,000 years, and when you've gotten a couple of billion living souls on the planet (and scores of billions of departed souls spanning those centuries) to believe what you wrote, and to represent the word and will of a broadly-accepted deity, then you, too, will have a ball-game.

 

[P F Tinmore]

No one ever said that Palestinian Arabs had no rights. We just mention how they had no sovereignty .
It's the Arab propagandists that like to yell a different story, like you.

Another false premise. It is the right to sovereignty that counts.

Recalling its relevant resolutions which affirm the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination,

1. Reaffirms the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people in Palestine, including:

(a) The right to self-determination without external interference;

(b) The right to national independence and sovereignty;

2. Reaffirms also the inalienable right of the Palestinians to return to their homes and property from which they have been displaced and uprooted, and calls for their return;

3. Emphasizes that full respect for and the realization of these inalienable rights of the Palestinian people are indispensable for the solution of the question of Palestine;

UN General Assembly Resolution 3236 and UN General Assembly Resolution 3237

They rejected sovereignty when they said NO to the partition plan.

Whoops!

Not true.

It was a partition plan not a sovereignty plan. The plan did not change their right to sovereignty.

 

[montelatici]

"...I could write a book that says God gave me Monaco."

When you DO, and when your book has been around for 3,000 years, and when you've gotten a couple of billion living souls on the planet (and scores of billions of departed souls spanning those centuries) to believe what you wrote, and to represent the word and will of a broadly-accepted deity, then you, too, will have a ball-game.

[/QUOTE

And I am sure that the book is considered reliable by a few billion Buddhists and Hindus.

 

[Sally]

Jose, if you go back and look at my original again, you'll see that I was conceding the reality of large-scale and wide-ranging genome admixture over the course of 2,000 years, and conceding that today's Jews are a mixture of (1) the original Hebrew strain and (2) the gene-markers of wide-ranging converts to Judaism and (3) other peoples - including blond-haired, blue-eyed types.

Oh, and, I have no need (desperate or otherwise) to 'legitimize' the Jews' presence in Israel with DNA tests, etc.

I'm sure that millions of European Jews who went to the Einzatzgruppen Pits and the Gas Chambers had little or no Hebrew tribal blood in their veins, either.

I'm an Irish-German lapsed Roman Catholic boy from the Chicago metro area and am not a stakeholder in the 'legitimacy-by-blood-inheritance' game.

I'm merely an avid Israel supporter who has a workable layman's understanding of ethnic and racial and genotype admixture over the centuries, and the migrations and driftings of the core racial and ethnic groups of Man, without claiming any particular expertise on the subject.

And, when I refer to the Jewish homeland, I almost exclusively refer to it as the Jews' "ancestral and spiritual" homeland - with the 'spiritual' part conceding by implication that a large percentage of Jews in Israel have little or no genetic (ancestral) connection with the Hebrew tribes of antiquity.

Just so we're clear.

No... the sacrifices and audacity of the people who fought to carve a resurrected Israel out of Old Palestine and who maintain it with their determination and courage, are all the legitimacy that Israel needs in the eyes of many around the world.

In the eyes of most Americans, not many people around the world who have not been conditioned by the media and education system to believe that Europeans had the right to evict most of the indigenous people, except the Palestinian Jews, because their "God" gave the land to them. I could write a book that says God gave me Monaco.

Gosh, I wonder how many Christians around the world actually know about the Muslims leaving the Saudi Peninsula and invading the surrounding countries where the original Christians resided. What would they think if they knew that these Christians were forced to convert and many who refused were slaughtered? Perhaps now some of them realize that the descendents of these original Christians who were lucky enough to escape this slaughter can't even practice their beliefs in peace.

I still am wondering about all these "indigenous" people when early visitors to the area said they saw very few Arabs, mainly Bedouin until they got to the larger cities and saw the Jews. Perhaps in time to come as more Muslims flood into Europe for jobs that they can't get in their own countries (the same way the Arabs flooded into Israel for jobs), will these Muslims eventually claim that they are the "indigenous" people and the actual indigenous Europeans were the ones who stole their land.

 

[Kondor3]

Another false premise. It is the right to sovereignty that counts.

They rejected sovereignty when they said NO to the partition plan.

Whoops!

Not true. It was a partition plan not a sovereignty plan...

For once we agree.

The plan did not change their right to sovereignty.

True.

It merely greatly reduced the amount of land over which they could claim sovereignty.

And, of course, by now, 66 years later, that 'amount of land' has shrunken to the approximate size of a postage stamp - hardly worth it.

 

[P F Tinmore]

They rejected sovereignty when they said NO to the partition plan.

Whoops!

Not true. It was a partition plan not a sovereignty plan...

For once we agree.

The plan did not change their right to sovereignty.

True.

It merely greatly reduced the amount of land over which they could claim sovereignty.

And, of course, by now, 66 years later, that 'amount of land' has shrunken to the approximate size of a postage stamp - hardly worth it.

Not really.

6. Any attempt aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples

Territorial integrity is one of those rights that have been violated.

 

[Kondor3]

Not true. It was a partition plan not a sovereignty plan...

For once we agree.


True.

It merely greatly reduced the amount of land over which they could claim sovereignty.

And, of course, by now, 66 years later, that 'amount of land' has shrunken to the approximate size of a postage stamp - hardly worth it.

Not really.

6. Any attempt aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples

Territorial integrity is one of those rights that have been violated.

Once ownership changes hands, it's all over, Tinny.

 

[P F Tinmore]

For once we agree.


True.

It merely greatly reduced the amount of land over which they could claim sovereignty.

And, of course, by now, 66 years later, that 'amount of land' has shrunken to the approximate size of a postage stamp - hardly worth it.

Not really.

6. Any attempt aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples

Territorial integrity is one of those rights that have been violated.

Once ownership changes hands, it's all over, Tinny.

Ownership has never changed hands.

 

[Kondor3]

Not really.



Territorial integrity is one of those rights that have been violated.

Once ownership changes hands, it's all over, Tinny.

Ownership has never changed hands.

And THAT is the Disconnect From Reality that has held your side back and kept them in shitholes for 66 years. Pointless. Tragic. Pathetic.


Sent from my HP 7 using USMessageBoard.com mobile app

 

[toastman]

Another false premise. It is the right to sovereignty that counts.

They rejected sovereignty when they said NO to the partition plan.

Whoops!

Not true.

It was a partition plan not a sovereignty plan. The plan did not change their right to sovereignty.

It was a plan to partition territory into two states. A sovereign Jewish State and a sovereign Arab state. The Arab rejected the plan , therefore rejecting sovereignty, AT THAT TIME.
I never said they rejected sovereignty forever.

 

[Sally]

Originally posted by Kondor3
Clowns?

How are these people clowns?

I agree that they don't entirely conform to stereotypical Jewish appearances, but...

Do we know their ethnic origins?

Are they the descendants of non-Hebrew Jewish converts?

Are they the descendants of the original Hebrew Jewish tribes and Diaspora?

Are they hybrids, and a mixture of the two?

Considering the mobility of populations and their wide-ranging admixture over the centuries, I think I'd want to wait for DNA test results, actually.

Kondor, you (and the rest of the sane world) don't need any DNA test to know this guy is not an australian aborigine:

You don't need any DNA test to know this old man and his granddaughter are not Han chinese either:

Their phenotypes together with your common sense are more than enough for you to avoid this kind of gross mistakes.

But you refuse to accept that this girl is of slavic germanic stock without a DNA test:

You don't allow her phenotype and your common sense to guide you to the right conclusion because of you agenda, Kondor, because you desperately need this girl to be of semitic extraction so you can use her genes to legitimize the state of Israel.

So just like Phoenall you decide to deny a reality that's in front of your eyes.

Sally does make a good point when she says there's no absolute, perfect link between phenotype and genotype a point that MhunterB has made in the past, too.

But let's not make too much of a good argument... Phenotype is a pretty good indication of someone's ancestry... When you see a blond, blue-eyed, pink skinned German its almost certain he's at least 90% caucasian.

It's interesting to note that the rare occasions people become sistematically "suspicious" of the phenotype-genotype relationship is exactly in situations such as this, when they are trying to validate a mithological ancestry.

In your daily lives I bet you, MhunterB and Sally are not nearly as sceptical of phenotypes as you are when you are here debating Israel.

So if someday you lose interest in legitimising the creation of the state of Israel I'm sure you'll have no problem calling that girl what your eyes tell you she really is: an european female.

I don't know, Jose, but since we all came out of Africa and the further away a group moved, the lighter their skin became. Why are you so obsessed with who is a Jew or not. You should worry more about the thousands and thousands of people who are dead now as a result of the Muslims killing each other as well as their killing Christians. Maybe it is more important for you to discuss who is a Jew than worry about people who are being murdered by your friends and who will never come back to life. I doubt that the deceased people's relatives and friends are worrying about who is a Jew or not. I find it amazing how there are people so obsessed over one tiny piece of land in the Middle East (only of course because the Jews happen to be involved there), but never look at the big picture of what is happening in the rest of the enormous land in the Middle East where the Jews are not even involved. I would imagine that the term Dhimwit was coined for people like this.

 

[Billo_Really]

Israel belongs to the Jews.

Just like the Aryan nation belonged to ___________ .

Well, you can fill in the blank.

 

[Billo_Really]

Right after we attack Russia for invading Ukraine.

Japan attacked us directly, and The Nazis attacked our allies, which with had agreements with to defend.

Anyways, the Arabs don't seem to give a shit about Gaza and the WB, because I don't see ANY Arab country doing anything.

No arab country can.

Israel is the big dog in the ME and no other country has the ability to do anything about it.

That's why that "wipe Israel off the map" mantra is such a joke!

Just a big, fuckin' joke.

 

[Billo_Really]

Forced by whom?

Make me President and I'll have the whole thing done in 90 days.

 

[Billo_Really]

He must mean th UN. But they have no gonads.

Unfortunately, you happen to be right.

 

[Billo_Really]

That, or he's gonna wanna haul the USS Missouri outta mothballs again...

I still like that idea.

 

[toastman]

Israel belongs to the Jews.

Just like the Aryan nation belonged to ___________ .

Well, you can fill in the blank.

Considering you compared Jews being gassed to death in the Holocaust to the IDF using tear gas as a means of riot dispersal, it's not the least bit surprising that you came up with this pathetic comparison..

 

[toastman]

Right after we attack Russia for invading Ukraine.

Japan attacked us directly, and The Nazis attacked our allies, which with had agreements with to defend.

Anyways, the Arabs don't seem to give a shit about Gaza and the WB, because I don't see ANY Arab country doing anything.

No arab country can.

Israel is the big dog in the ME and no other country has the ability to do anything about it.

That's why that "wipe Israel off the map" mantra is such a joke!

Just a big, fuckin' joke.

Nuclear weapons can easily destroy a tiny country like Israel.

 

[P F Tinmore]

They rejected sovereignty when they said NO to the partition plan.

Whoops!

Not true.

It was a partition plan not a sovereignty plan. The plan did not change their right to sovereignty.

It was a plan to partition territory into two states. A sovereign Jewish State and a sovereign Arab state. The Arab rejected the plan , therefore rejecting sovereignty, AT THAT TIME.
I never said they rejected sovereignty forever.

The partition plan had nothing to do with the right to sovereignty.