I will not Bow!

[Phoenall]

Sally is also right when she says that I probably have some jewish ancestry by virtue of being hispanic since jews settled in Spain and Portugal even before the diaspora of 70 AD and from then on there were more Jews in that part of the world than saguaros in the Sonoran desert.

But just like the Askhenazim from Eastern Europe it's a vestigial ancestry at best.

Askhenazi Jews, the founders of Israel, have either:

1 No jewish ancestry at all being the descendants of converts

2 or a residual ancestry ranging from 0,1 to 1 or 2%.

You are free to call us all "hybrids" due to that extremely dilluted jewish heritage. It's technically correct but it would be an extremely misleading use of the word.

Wrong on all counts as the Ashkenazi's show the genetic haplotype that is only present in a matrilineal lineage that can be traced back to the time of Abraham. Very few of the Ashkenazi Jews are converts as Judaism does not accept converts as other religions do, it is a long drawn out procedure that has blocks at every stage. The most prevalent reason for the European look of Ashkenazi Jews is from rape of Jewish females by ANTISEMITIC JEW HATERS and NAZIS, makes you proud to be descended from rapists doesn't it. More likely to be 95 to 98 % ancestry due to very little marriage outside of their own community for ANTISEMITIC and RELIGOUS reasons.

 

[Phoenall]

Jose, you need to understand something very important.
Israel belongs to the Jews. So it doesn't matter if half of them are semitic and the other half not. The non semitic Israeli jews do not need to justify the fact that they live in Israel, because their ancestors might be from Europe.
Israel is a Jewish State, not a Semitic Jewish state.

I hope you understand what I'm trying to say

The biggest and most compelling reason is that the Jews themselves can invite who they want to come and live in Israel it does not have anything to do with me, you or the cats mother.

 

[pbel]

Originally posted by Kondor3
Clowns?

How are these people clowns?

I agree that they don't entirely conform to stereotypical Jewish appearances, but...

Do we know their ethnic origins?

Are they the descendants of non-Hebrew Jewish converts?

Are they the descendants of the original Hebrew Jewish tribes and Diaspora?

Are they hybrids, and a mixture of the two?

Considering the mobility of populations and their wide-ranging admixture over the centuries, I think I'd want to wait for DNA test results, actually.

Kondor, you (and the rest of the sane world) don't need any DNA test to know this guy is not an australian aborigine:

You don't need any DNA test to know this old man and his granddaughter are not Han chinese either:

Their phenotypes together with your common sense are more than enough for you to avoid this kind of gross mistakes.

But you refuse to accept that this girl is of slavic germanic stock without a DNA test:

You don't allow her phenotype and your common sense to guide you to the right conclusion because of you agenda, Kondor, because you desperately need this girl to be of semitic extraction so you can use her genes to legitimize the state of Israel.

So just like Phoenall you decide to deny a reality that's in front of your eyes.

Sally does make a good point when she says there's no absolute, perfect link between phenotype and genotype a point that MhunterB has made in the past, too.

But let's not make too much of a good argument... Phenotype is a pretty good indication of someone's ancestry... When you see a blond, blue-eyed, pink skinned German its almost certain he's at least 90% caucasian.

It's interesting to note that the rare occasions people become sistematically "suspicious" of the phenotype-genotype relationship is exactly in situations such as this, when they are trying to validate a mithological ancestry.

In your daily lives I bet you, MhunterB and Sally are not nearly as sceptical of phenotypes as you are when you are here debating Israel.

So if someday you lose interest in legitimising the creation of the state of Israel I'm sure you'll have no problem calling that girl what your eyes tell you she really is: an european female.

I take it you have seen the video of the blonde girl abusing the Israeli soldier, are you saying that she is not an arab Palestinian. Which would mean that all the non dark skinned black haired Palestinians are illegal invaders. Does it also mean all the Saudi arabs with very light skin are Europeans as well.

What a complete and utter illiterate fool you are, skin and hair colour by themselves does not denote race. Unless you are a RABID RACIST and will use this against anyone claiming to be Jewish, which you are doing.

When you think about skin color or genetics, think the Roman Empire whose Legions consisted of soldiers from all over the Empire...At its fall, 2/3 of the Roman Army were German mercenaries, light skinned and many red heads.

But there is no doubt that the Palestinian genetic pool proven by science is clearly more related to the original Jews and Christian than the European Jews of the diaspora living in Israel today.

 

[Phoenall]

Jose, if you go back and look at my original again, you'll see that I was conceding the reality of large-scale and wide-ranging genome admixture over the course of 2,000 years, and conceding that today's Jews are a mixture of (1) the original Hebrew strain and (2) the gene-markers of wide-ranging converts to Judaism and (3) other peoples - including blond-haired, blue-eyed types.

Oh, and, I have no need (desperate or otherwise) to 'legitimize' the Jews' presence in Israel with DNA tests, etc.

I'm sure that millions of European Jews who went to the Einzatzgruppen Pits and the Gas Chambers had little or no Hebrew tribal blood in their veins, either.

I'm an Irish-German lapsed Roman Catholic boy from the Chicago metro area and am not a stakeholder in the 'legitimacy-by-blood-inheritance' game.

I'm merely an avid Israel supporter who has a workable layman's understanding of ethnic and racial and genotype admixture over the centuries, and the migrations and driftings of the core racial and ethnic groups of Man, without claiming any particular expertise on the subject.

And, when I refer to the Jewish homeland, I almost exclusively refer to it as the Jews' "ancestral and spiritual" homeland - with the 'spiritual' part conceding by implication that a large percentage of Jews in Israel have little or no genetic (ancestral) connection with the Hebrew tribes of antiquity.

Just so we're clear.

No... the sacrifices and audacity of the people who fought to carve a resurrected Israel out of Old Palestine and who maintain it with their determination and courage, are all the legitimacy that Israel needs in the eyes of many around the world.

In the eyes of most Americans, not many people around the world who have not been conditioned by the media and education system to believe that Europeans had the right to evict most of the indigenous people, except the Palestinian Jews, because their "God" gave the land to them. I could write a book that says God gave me Monaco.

Yet you defend and support the eviction of non muslims from all of the M.E. nations because their God gave the land to them. So what is the difference between 300 million muslims violently evicting all non muslims from their homes and property and 1 million Jews declaring independence on land given to them by its rightful and legal owners in 1948.

Don't forget that little fact that the arab muslims had never owned the land for over 1,000 years and were subservient to the real owners right up until 1949.

 

[Kondor3]

Jose, if you go back and look at my original again, you'll see that I was conceding the reality of large-scale and wide-ranging genome admixture over the course of 2,000 years, and conceding that today's Jews are a mixture of (1) the original Hebrew strain and (2) the gene-markers of wide-ranging converts to Judaism and (3) other peoples - including blond-haired, blue-eyed types.

Oh, and, I have no need (desperate or otherwise) to 'legitimize' the Jews' presence in Israel with DNA tests, etc.

I'm sure that millions of European Jews who went to the Einzatzgruppen Pits and the Gas Chambers had little or no Hebrew tribal blood in their veins, either.

I'm an Irish-German lapsed Roman Catholic boy from the Chicago metro area and am not a stakeholder in the 'legitimacy-by-blood-inheritance' game.

I'm merely an avid Israel supporter who has a workable layman's understanding of ethnic and racial and genotype admixture over the centuries, and the migrations and driftings of the core racial and ethnic groups of Man, without claiming any particular expertise on the subject.

And, when I refer to the Jewish homeland, I almost exclusively refer to it as the Jews' "ancestral and spiritual" homeland - with the 'spiritual' part conceding by implication that a large percentage of Jews in Israel have little or no genetic (ancestral) connection with the Hebrew tribes of antiquity.

Just so we're clear.

No... the sacrifices and audacity of the people who fought to carve a resurrected Israel out of Old Palestine and who maintain it with their determination and courage, are all the legitimacy that Israel needs in the eyes of many around the world.

In the eyes of most Americans, not many people around the world who have not been conditioned by the media and education system to believe that Europeans had the right to evict most of the indigenous people, except the Palestinian Jews, because their "God" gave the land to them. I could write a book that says God gave me Monaco.

Yet you defend and support the eviction of non muslims from all of the M.E. nations because their God gave the land to them. So what is the difference between 300 million muslims violently evicting all non muslims from their homes and property and 1 million Jews declaring independence on land given to them by its rightful and legal owners in 1948.

Don't forget that little fact that the arab muslims had never owned the land for over 1,000 years and were subservient to the real owners right up until 1949.

Some good points, there.

It's OK, when the Muslims play those games in 95% of the land-mass of the region...

But it's not OK, when the Jews play those games in 5% of the land-mass of the region...

Pfffffttttt....

The hypocrisy is just friggin' unbelievable...

The workaround for that is to ignore the 95-pecenters bitching about the 5-percenters...

Or slap their ears back when they try to spin-doctor their hypocritical Israel-bashing...

 

[Phoenall]

Another false premise. It is the right to sovereignty that counts.

They rejected sovereignty when they said NO to the partition plan.

Whoops!

Not true.

It was a partition plan not a sovereignty plan. The plan did not change their right to sovereignty.

Which they themselves gave up in 1948 when they voted for Jordan to rule them. That gave Jordan sovereignty over the Palestinians of the west bank, the Palestinians of gaza were just placed in prison camps and mistreated by the Egyptians. So the partinon plan would have given them sovereignty over their own lands but they turned it down in favour of outside influence and sovereignty.

 

[Phoenall]

"...I could write a book that says God gave me Monaco."

When you DO, and when your book has been around for 3,000 years, and when you've gotten a couple of billion living souls on the planet (and scores of billions of departed souls spanning those centuries) to believe what you wrote, and to represent the word and will of a broadly-accepted deity, then you, too, will have a ball-game.

[/QUOTE

And I am sure that the book is considered reliable by a few billion Buddhists and Hindus.

Don't forget to claim that you are the last prophet and all the others are false prophets. Then allow child sex, rape, murder, violence and anything else that is abhorrent to civilised people. That way you will be sure to get a million followers within 2 years.

 

[Phoenall]

Jose, if you go back and look at my original again, you'll see that I was conceding the reality of large-scale and wide-ranging genome admixture over the course of 2,000 years, and conceding that today's Jews are a mixture of (1) the original Hebrew strain and (2) the gene-markers of wide-ranging converts to Judaism and (3) other peoples - including blond-haired, blue-eyed types.

Oh, and, I have no need (desperate or otherwise) to 'legitimize' the Jews' presence in Israel with DNA tests, etc.

I'm sure that millions of European Jews who went to the Einzatzgruppen Pits and the Gas Chambers had little or no Hebrew tribal blood in their veins, either.

I'm an Irish-German lapsed Roman Catholic boy from the Chicago metro area and am not a stakeholder in the 'legitimacy-by-blood-inheritance' game.

I'm merely an avid Israel supporter who has a workable layman's understanding of ethnic and racial and genotype admixture over the centuries, and the migrations and driftings of the core racial and ethnic groups of Man, without claiming any particular expertise on the subject.

And, when I refer to the Jewish homeland, I almost exclusively refer to it as the Jews' "ancestral and spiritual" homeland - with the 'spiritual' part conceding by implication that a large percentage of Jews in Israel have little or no genetic (ancestral) connection with the Hebrew tribes of antiquity.

Just so we're clear.

No... the sacrifices and audacity of the people who fought to carve a resurrected Israel out of Old Palestine and who maintain it with their determination and courage, are all the legitimacy that Israel needs in the eyes of many around the world.

In the eyes of most Americans, not many people around the world who have not been conditioned by the media and education system to believe that Europeans had the right to evict most of the indigenous people, except the Palestinian Jews, because their "God" gave the land to them. I could write a book that says God gave me Monaco.

Gosh, I wonder how many Christians around the world actually know about the Muslims leaving the Saudi Peninsula and invading the surrounding countries where the original Christians resided. What would they think if they knew that these Christians were forced to convert and many who refused were slaughtered? Perhaps now some of them realize that the descendents of these original Christians who were lucky enough to escape this slaughter can't even practice their beliefs in peace.

I still am wondering about all these "indigenous" people when early visitors to the area said they saw very few Arabs, mainly Bedouin until they got to the larger cities and saw the Jews. Perhaps in time to come as more Muslims flood into Europe for jobs that they can't get in their own countries (the same way the Arabs flooded into Israel for jobs), will these Muslims eventually claim that they are the "indigenous" people and the actual indigenous Europeans were the ones who stole their land.

They are already doing this in the UK through their proxies the neo Marxists. Some you might remember from POI and Deep Blue.

 

[Phoenall]

Not true. It was a partition plan not a sovereignty plan...

For once we agree.


True.

It merely greatly reduced the amount of land over which they could claim sovereignty.

And, of course, by now, 66 years later, that 'amount of land' has shrunken to the approximate size of a postage stamp - hardly worth it.

Not really.

6. Any attempt aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples

Territorial integrity is one of those rights that have been violated.

How so when they only achieved sovereignty and territorial integrity in 1988. Since this time they have lost no more land than that they signed away in a treaty.

 

[Phoenall]

Not really.



Territorial integrity is one of those rights that have been violated.

Once ownership changes hands, it's all over, Tinny.

Ownership has never changed hands.

The Palestinian representative signed land away in the Oslo Accords in return for sovereignty of the rest of the west bank and gaza

 

[Phoenall]

Israel belongs to the Jews.

Just like the Aryan nation belonged to ___________ .

Well, you can fill in the blank.

There was never an Aryan nation, it was just a sub group of a race. Much like arab muslims are just Asians.

BUT legally and ethically Israel does belong to the Jews of all races and creeds, it is entrenched in International Law. Making it the only nation that is part of International law.

 

[Phoenall]

Right after we attack Russia for invading Ukraine.

Japan attacked us directly, and The Nazis attacked our allies, which with had agreements with to defend.

Anyways, the Arabs don't seem to give a shit about Gaza and the WB, because I don't see ANY Arab country doing anything.

No arab country can.

Israel is the big dog in the ME and no other country has the ability to do anything about it.

That's why that "wipe Israel off the map" mantra is such a joke!

Just a big, fuckin' joke.

So the Pakistani nuclear weapons does not level the playing field. The chemical and biological weapons so many Islamic dictatorships seem to have don't show cause for concern. The demographics of the Islamic world that out number the Jews 200 to 1 don't matter.
The fact is the muslims do a lot of shouting and gesticulating but at the end of the day the Palestinians are not wanted or liked by the majority of muslims. They see them as the parasites they are and would turn a blind eye to the next major retaliation for their terrorist attacks on israel

 

[Phoenall]

Forced by whom?

Make me President and I'll have the whole thing done in 90 days.

The joint chiefs of staff would issue an obituary within 10 days of you taking office regretfully informing the world that you died as a result of a massive brain bleed that could not be treated.
Or the rest of the world would park their armed forces on your front lawn and ask when you would be coming out to play.

 

[Phoenall]

That, or he's gonna wanna haul the USS Missouri outta mothballs again...

I still like that idea.

Then find a crew of ISLAMONAZI JEW HATERS to man it, because not one of the American sailors would obey your commands. No planes would fly against Israel, no troops would march towards Israel and no civilian would support your extermination of the Jews.

 

[Phoenall]

Not true.

It was a partition plan not a sovereignty plan. The plan did not change their right to sovereignty.

It was a plan to partition territory into two states. A sovereign Jewish State and a sovereign Arab state. The Arab rejected the plan , therefore rejecting sovereignty, AT THAT TIME.
I never said they rejected sovereignty forever.

The partition plan had nothing to do with the right to sovereignty.

It did as it opened the door for the arab muslims to show they were ready for free determination and sovereignty. Their refusal to accept both of these shows they are not ready to play in the big boys league.

 

[Phoenall]

Ownership has never changed hands.

And THAT is the Disconnect From Reality that has held your side back and kept them in shitholes for 66 years. Pointless. Tragic. Pathetic.


Sent from my HP 7 using USMessageBoard.com mobile app

The ownership has not changed hands. You are the one with a problem with reality.

Oslo Accords 2 says otherwise.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

sover·eign·ty [ sóvvrəntee ]

• top authority: supreme authority, especially over a state
• independence: the right to self-government without interference from outside
• independent state: a politically independent state

Not true.

It was a partition plan not a sovereignty plan. The plan did not change their right to sovereignty.

(COMMENT)

The General Assembly Resolution adopted [A/RES/181(II)] of 29 November 1947 (AKA: The Partition Plan) offered the opportunity.

It was used by:

• The Jewish Agency to establish self-government and independence (AKA: sovereignty) in 1948.
• The PLO to establish self-government and independence (AKA: sovereignty) in 1988.

Foremost among these was the passage of 60 years since the adoption by the General Assembly in 1947 of resolution 181 (II), providing for the establishment of an Arab State and a Jewish State in the former Mandate territory of Palestine, with a special status for the holy city of Jerusalem.

SOURCE: UN Publication; The Question of Palestine and the United Nations NYNY 2008

Your attempt at a Ad Hoc Rescue of a cherished belief, when faced with the real history, is admirable but entirely wrong.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Phoenall]

Considering you compared Jews being gassed to death in the Holocaust to the IDF using tear gas as a means of riot dispersal, it's not the least bit surprising that you came up with this pathetic comparison..

Are you that big of a *****, that you have to constantly lie about shit?

And what's pathetic about the comparison?

They wanted an Aryan Nation, you want a Jewish State.

What's the fuckin' difference?

You're both racist assholes, who think your shit don't stink.

Where is the LIE as you compared the gassing of Jews by your Nazi friends to the IDF using non lethal tear gas to disperse a crowd. You even admitted that this was the case.

It seems that you want to resurrect the Aryan race and all of its flaws as it leads to the genocide of the Jews. Who will you go for next the Hindus or the Sikhs ?

 

[Phoenall]

The ownership has not changed hands. You are the one with a problem with reality.

Spare me the Automatic Gainsay, Tinny...

The Israelis are in possession of those lands...

And have been, for 66 years now...

They hold the pink-slip nowadays... not you...

Old school.

Parking your ass on a piece of land with a gun no longer means that it is yours.

Tell that to the Palestinians because that is exactly how they think and act.

 

[Phoenall]

So you advocate that the USA should ignore International law and attack Israel wipe out the Jews and destroy their property. Then force the rest into death camps and fulfil the NAZI's final solution because you don't think that International law applies to the Jews.

Now how about you detail these breaches of International law that you claim Israel is making and show what the breaches are in detail so we can destroy your words with actual International law from Judges that know more than you ever will about it.

What a filthy ISLAMONAZI JEW HATING RACIST SCUMBAG YOU ARE. Do you have your white bed sheet hung up in the closet and your wooden crosses ready to burn,

Driving the god-damn Israeli's back to Israel, has nothing to do with Judaism.

But you're doing everything you can to get people to think it does.

Does not matter how you wrap it up you just want to wipe out the Jews and destroy Israel. Under International law the IDF is in the west bank legally, your proposed attack would be a breach of International Law making you the aggressor and WAR CRIMINAL. Your words have everything to do with your pathological hatred of the Jews and Judaism.