P F Tinmore
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I will not Bow!
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Mojo2
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I gotta say this...
I have resisted this urge as long as I have known of this thread because I believed doing this would be pointless and silly of me, but I swear to you all that whenever I see this thread title I ALWAYS am first struck by its bold declaration.
I will not Bowl.
That's how it ALWAYS looks to me.
But, I must also say, you have to respect the wishes of someone so definitive about his recreative preferences.
I have resisted this urge as long as I have known of this thread because I believed doing this would be pointless and silly of me, but I swear to you all that whenever I see this thread title I ALWAYS am first struck by its bold declaration.
I will not Bowl.
That's how it ALWAYS looks to me.
But, I must also say, you have to respect the wishes of someone so definitive about his recreative preferences.
pbel
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- Feb 26, 2012
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You hit the nail on the head...I argue on these boards that only a real amicable peace deal blessed by the Arab League that has offered full recognition and trade can save Israel...Israel ignores the long term threat of attritional wars that have thus far been successful against all previous invaders.
Sure, Rocco, Toast, and the rest of the Zionuts prefer walls and war. The Christian Crusaders tried this, they lost in 300 years of constant vigilance and cold wars.
If Israel controls E. Jerusalem, there will never be peace...
They can wait and die fighting, they have done that because their Religion is their guide...
They will never bow!!!
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Tinny, the only terms you (and those who think like you) will accept is the leftmost (100%) map at far left in the image, below...
You can't have it.
Either you (metaphorically, your side) face Reality and compromise, or lose it all.
That is a choice that has been facing you for 66 years.
And you have been making the wrong choice for those past 66 years, and continue to do so, today.
Comes a time, when the stakeholder who controls the land, grows sufficiently weary of the intransigence, and moves to break the long-running and impossible deadlock, by opting to CUT the Gordian Knot, giving up on trying to un-tie it.
The way for the Israelis to CUT the Gordian Knot are to either (1) slaughter the Palestinians or (2) kick them out and send them packing across the borders of Jordan and Lebanon, never to return.
Unlike the Palestinians, sworn to drown the Jews in the Mediterranean, the Israelis, as a People, are far too humane to opt for (1), so they'll probably settle for (2), if you push them far enough.
Which is just about where they are now, in contemplating that Gordian Knot that you insist on presenting them with.
With people like you in charge (and that's what Hamas is, in this metaphorical sense), Israel has no other choice, if it is to survive, and have defensible borders that will sustain them over the coming centuries and generations.
And, I assure you, they do intend to survive.
Option (1) is unacceptable, but they'll probably get away with (2) if it's done right; there is certainly adequate precedent for such population transfers in modern history.
Your (your side's) intransigence is what is pushing Israel towards just such an answer; even though it will cause them some trouble, for a while, afterwards.
Better a few years of censure than extermination.
Keep it up... you're (your side) ruining whatever tiny chance that might otherwise still exist for a reasonable compromise, and you're condemning the Palestinians to Eviction and Expulsion - mostly because you don't believe it can happen, and are stupidly pressing your luck with that delusion firmly entrenched in your minds.
The warning signs are there, but you (your side) are wearing blinkers, and cannot see them, or will not heed them.
And, when the day comes that you must face the consequences of such blindness - and that day is probably closer than any of you imagine - then, the world (beyond the realm of Islam, anyway) will not help you to remedy your stupidity, and you will be scattered, and absorbed and assimilated into the surrounding region, and be quickly forgotten.
Nature will have de-selected you.
Such is the fate of blind fools.
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First of all, your link did not disprove whAt I said as usual. I see nothing there about defined territory
Second, why are you bringing up the Armistice agreements when they were signed BEFORE the treaties with Egypt and Jordan that gave Israel INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED BORDERS with them and Israel.
Third, I dont know why I bother with you when it comes to debating Israels. You have no clue what you are talking about and you cant even back up your statements
I dont prefer walls liar, I prefer peace AND security for Israel.
The problem with leftytards like you is that you could care less about Israels security and that you underestimate the true intentions of many Palestinians and the Arab world.
Jerusalem will never be divided again.
Comprende??
P F Tinmore
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Do either Israel or Palestine recognize the armistice lines as their defined international borders?
Here are two maps.
The first map is a 1946 map of Palestine inside its international boundaries. On top of this map are the proposed (but never implemented or recognized by anybody) partition plan borders.
The second map shows the 1949 armistice lines that are specifically not to be political or territorial borders.
So, where is Palestine's territory and where is Israel's territory?
The first map is the partition plan Tinmore. What you see there are proposed borders! I honestly cannot believe that after this has been told to you sooooo many times, you still bring it up.
Second, did you read my post about how the Armistice agreements were signed BEFORE fhe treaties that gave Israel internationally recognized borders with Egypt and Jordan??
All of The land inside the Green Line belongs to Israel. Notice how none of that land is part of the negotiations????
Second, did you read my post about how the Armistice agreements were signed BEFORE fhe treaties that gave Israel internationally recognized borders with Egypt and Jordan??
All of The land inside the Green Line belongs to Israel. Notice how none of that land is part of the negotiations????
P F Tinmore
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Yes, I said that.
Yes, I said that.
Because you still don' get it.
I did.
You just brought up an excellent point, but you probably do not know what it is.
ForeverYoung436
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What is this excellent point?
I don't get why you debate issues that are not up for debate.
We get it Tinmore, YOU don't recognize Israels DOI or their existence. But that changes nothing.
P F Tinmore
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Why are Israel and Palestine negotiating borders. I know that is a "final status" issue.
Simple answer, Israel cant have permanent borders with the Palestinian territories until there is a final piece deal. That does t mean that the cease fire line separating Israel and Gaza is going to change, nor is the line separating Israel and the West Bank going to change, its just that they will become permanent internationally recognized boundaries like the armistice lines with Egypt and Jordan became after Israel signed peace treaties with them
P F Tinmore
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That is the point. Only Palestine has the right to change Palestine's borders.
Israel can't change them.
Jordan can't change them.
Egypt can't change them.
The UN can't change them.
We have to remember that there were no Palestinians until they decided to call themselves that. They must have been laughing over this at the State Department when this happened. As one retired poster from the State Department had to say.........
Sure there was a Palestine. It was invented in the 1960s in a conference room at 1 Lubyanka, Dzershinsky Place, Red Square, Moscow, CCCP. It came complete with a "Palestinian people" too. In fact, its legacy leader was trained east of Moscow at the legendary Balashikha special-ops school.
P F Tinmore
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The status of Palestine and the nationality of its inhabitants were finally settled by the Treaty of Lausanne from the perspective of public international law. In a report submitted to the League of Nations, the British government pointed out: “The ratification of the Treaty of Lausanne in Aug., 1924, finally regularised the international status of Palestine.”123 And, thereafter, “Palestine could, at last, obtain a separate nationality.”124
Genesis of Citizenship in Palestine and Israel
There was no country of Palestine, and the Arabs living there were just called Arabs or Syrians. Perhaps you should have been with Arafat in Russia to iron all of this out. You could have poked him and said "Psst, remember to say that there was always a country of Palestine and we Arabs were always called Palestinians."
And?? You still didnt refute what she said
RoccoR
Gold Member
P F Tinmore, et al,
A misinterpretation of the obvious. The Treaty of Lausanne does not mention Palestine even once. It does not alter the Palestine Order in Council or the Mandate, or the interpretation of Article 22 of the LoN Covenant.
Under the Treaty of Lausanne, the territory now discussed, formerly the Mandate of Palestine, as designated in Part I, Paragraph 1 of the Palestine Order in Council, was under the general heading of SECTION I, PART I, TERRITORIAL CLAUSES, ARTICLE 3 - From the Mediterranean to the frontier of Persia, the frontier of Turkey is laid down as follows:
From beginning to end - Palestine (which describes the Mandate for Palestine as the assigned interpretation) was nothing more than a "legal entity" and never a sovereign state until its Declaration of Independence in 1988; and even then, as a self-governing institution, under a stable government, able to stand alone, it is still arguable.
Most Respectfully,
R
A misinterpretation of the obvious. The Treaty of Lausanne does not mention Palestine even once. It does not alter the Palestine Order in Council or the Mandate, or the interpretation of Article 22 of the LoN Covenant.
(COMMENT)
Under the Treaty of Lausanne, the territory now discussed, formerly the Mandate of Palestine, as designated in Part I, Paragraph 1 of the Palestine Order in Council, was under the general heading of SECTION I, PART I, TERRITORIAL CLAUSES, ARTICLE 3 - From the Mediterranean to the frontier of Persia, the frontier of Turkey is laid down as follows:
- (1) With Syria:
- (2) With Iraq:
And in reading the order, one must remember what is being said when they use the word "Palestine."The Palestine Order in Council said:
Finally, it is important to remember the 1948 interpretation of Palestine:The Palestine Order in Council said:
UK MEMORANDUM NAMES COMMISSION AS SUCCESSOR GOVERNMENT said:
From beginning to end - Palestine (which describes the Mandate for Palestine as the assigned interpretation) was nothing more than a "legal entity" and never a sovereign state until its Declaration of Independence in 1988; and even then, as a self-governing institution, under a stable government, able to stand alone, it is still arguable.
Most Respectfully,
R
and before Tinmore starts telling us that Resolution 181 has no meaning or importance:
" following upon UN General Assembly Resolution 181 (1947), which partitioned Palestine into two states, one Arab, one Jewish, yet it is this Resolution that still provides those conditions of international legitimacy that ensure the right of the Palestinian Arab people to sovereignty."
Document: Palestinian Declaration of Independence, 15 Nov 1988
" following upon UN General Assembly Resolution 181 (1947), which partitioned Palestine into two states, one Arab, one Jewish, yet it is this Resolution that still provides those conditions of international legitimacy that ensure the right of the Palestinian Arab people to sovereignty."
Document: Palestinian Declaration of Independence, 15 Nov 1988
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