I will not Bow!

[pbel]

I gotta say this...

I have resisted this urge as long as I have known of this thread because I believed doing this would be pointless and silly of me, but I swear to you all that whenever I see this thread title I ALWAYS am first struck by its bold declaration.

I will not Bowl.

That's how it ALWAYS looks to me.

But, I must also say, you have to respect the wishes of someone so definitive about his recreative preferences.

You hit the nail on the head...I argue on these boards that only a real amicable peace deal blessed by the Arab League that has offered full recognition and trade can save Israel...Israel ignores the long term threat of attritional wars that have thus far been successful against all previous invaders.

Sure, Rocco, Toast, and the rest of the Zionuts prefer walls and war. The Christian Crusaders tried this, they lost in 300 years of constant vigilance and cold wars.

If Israel controls E. Jerusalem, there will never be peace...

They can wait and die fighting, they have done that because their Religion is their guide...

They will never bow!!!

I dont prefer walls liar, I prefer peace AND security for Israel.

The problem with leftytards like you is that you could care less about Israels security and that you underestimate the true intentions of many Palestinians and the Arab world.

Jerusalem will never be divided again.

Comprende??

The problem with dummies like you is how invincible Israel is: Just keep a ticket read for a quick escape...before a nuke befalls you on your self-created Armageddon.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

A misinterpretation of the obvious. The Treaty of Lausanne does not mention Palestine even once. It does not alter the Palestine Order in Council or the Mandate, or the interpretation of Article 22 of the LoN Covenant.

We have to remember that there were no Palestinians until they decided to call themselves that. They must have been laughing over this at the State Department when this happened. As one retired poster from the State Department had to say.........

Sure there was a Palestine. It was invented in the 1960s in a conference room at 1 Lubyanka, Dzershinsky Place, Red Square, Moscow, CCCP. It came complete with a "Palestinian people" too. In fact, its legacy leader was trained east of Moscow at the legendary Balashikha special-ops school.

The status of Palestine and the nationality of its inhabitants were finally settled by the Treaty of Lausanne from the perspective of public international law. In a report submitted to the League of Nations, the British government pointed out: “The ratification of the Treaty of Lausanne in Aug., 1924, finally regularised the international status of Palestine.”123 And, thereafter, “Palestine could, at last, obtain a separate nationality.”124

Genesis of Citizenship in Palestine and Israel

(COMMENT)

Under the Treaty of Lausanne, the territory now discussed, formerly the Mandate of Palestine, as designated in Part I, Paragraph 1 of the Palestine Order in Council, was under the general heading of SECTION I, PART I, TERRITORIAL CLAUSES, ARTICLE 3 - From the Mediterranean to the frontier of Persia, the frontier of Turkey is laid down as follows:

• (1) With Syria:
• (2) With Iraq:

This Palestinian fallacy was discussed at length in Post #87 (U.N. rights inquiry says Israel must remove settlers). And the issue of "nationality" was laid down in the Treaty of Lausanne in SECTION II - NATIONALITY - ARTICLES 30 thru 36. Yes there was a choice to be made, but "Palestinian" was not one of the choices. Hence, the need for Order in Council clarification:

And in reading the order, one must remember what is being said when they use the word "Palestine."

PART I. - PRELIMINARY.

1. This Order may be cited as "The Palestine Order in Council, 1922."

The limits of this Order are the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine.​

SOURCE: The Palestine Order in Council

Finally, it is important to remember the 1948 interpretation of Palestine:

"Palestine is today a legal entity but it is not a sovereign state. Palestine is a territory administered under mandate by His Majesty (in respect of the United Kingdom), who is entirely responsible both for its internal administration and for its foreign affairs.

"After the 15th May, 1948, Palestine will continue to be a legal entity but it will still not be a sovereign state because it will not be immediately self-governing. The authority responsible for its administration will, however, have changed. -

SOURCE: PAL/138 27 February 1948

From beginning to end - Palestine (which describes the Mandate for Palestine as the assigned interpretation) was nothing more than a "legal entity" and never a sovereign state until its Declaration of Independence in 1988; and even then, as a self-governing institution, under a stable government, able to stand alone, it is still arguable.

Most Respectfully,
R

Rocco,

Are you trying to say that the Palestinians, the native citizens of Palestine, living on their own land inside their own international borders do not have the right to self determination without external interference?

 

[Indeependent]

You hit the nail on the head...I argue on these boards that only a real amicable peace deal blessed by the Arab League that has offered full recognition and trade can save Israel...Israel ignores the long term threat of attritional wars that have thus far been successful against all previous invaders.

Sure, Rocco, Toast, and the rest of the Zionuts prefer walls and war. The Christian Crusaders tried this, they lost in 300 years of constant vigilance and cold wars.

If Israel controls E. Jerusalem, there will never be peace...

They can wait and die fighting, they have done that because their Religion is their guide...

They will never bow!!!

I dont prefer walls liar, I prefer peace AND security for Israel.

The problem with leftytards like you is that you could care less about Israels security and that you underestimate the true intentions of many Palestinians and the Arab world.

Jerusalem will never be divided again.

Comprende??

The problem with dummies like you is how invincible Israel is: Just keep a ticket read for a quick escape...before a nuke befalls you on your self-created Armageddon.

God is Invincible.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Heavens no!

Rocco,

Are you trying to say that the Palestinians, the native citizens of Palestine, living on their own land inside their own international borders do not have the right to self determination without external interference?

(COMMENT)

I'm saying that the Arab Palestinian has done an extremely poor job of attempting to implement their right of self-determination.

Just to stand-up and say you are a nation, a sovereign entity, is not enough. The nation has to be self-governing, with the ability to stand on its own. It has to achieve this in some manner that locks step with the Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States. Just shooting a bunch of guns, and waving a bunch of flags is simply not enough. The Arab Palestinian must build a nation that contributes to the maintenance of regional and international peace and security. By any standard, regionally, the Arab Palestinian has not done that --- not even close.

And what you insist as the international borders of Palestine are not recognized by anyone other than the Jihadist and Fedayeen; not even by the Arab League and PLO.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Heavens no!

Rocco,

Are you trying to say that the Palestinians, the native citizens of Palestine, living on their own land inside their own international borders do not have the right to self determination without external interference?

(COMMENT)

I'm saying that the Arab Palestinian has done an extremely poor job of attempting to implement their right of self-determination.

Just to stand-up and say you are a nation, a sovereign entity, is not enough. The nation has to be self-governing, with the ability to stand on its own. It has to achieve this in some manner that locks step with the Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States. Just shooting a bunch of guns, and waving a bunch of flags is simply not enough. The Arab Palestinian must build a nation that contributes to the maintenance of regional and international peace and security. By any standard, regionally, the Arab Palestinian has not done that --- not even close.

And what you insist as the international borders of Palestine are not recognized by anyone other than the Jihadist and Fedayeen; not even by the Arab League and PLO.

Most Respectfully,
R

Just to stand-up and say you are a nation, a sovereign entity, is not enough. The nation has to be self-governing, with the ability to stand on its own.

How is it supposed to do that when a bunch of assholes have it under illegal military occupation?

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I thought you knew! Magic --- You have to rub the lamp.

Just to stand-up and say you are a nation, a sovereign entity, is not enough. The nation has to be self-governing, with the ability to stand on its own.

How is it supposed to do that when a bunch of assholes have it under illegal military occupation?

(COMMENT)

Sorry --- I just couldn't pass that up.

Neither side can magically go back in the past and fix the mistakes they have made. All the people of Palestine (West Bank and Gaza Strip) can do now is move forward in terms of peace. That means dismantling their terrorist arms associations and establish normal relations; seriously considering the faithful observance of the principles of international law concerning friendly relations and co-operation among States and the fulfillment in good faith of the obligations assumed by States, in accordance with the Charter. These are the cornerstones of greatest importance to the Arab Palestinians in the maintenance of regional and international peace.

It is that simple. You would be surprised at how many nations would chip in to help if the Arab Palestinian abandon the HAMAS Covenant and Palestinian National Charter; divesting themselves of all forms of aggression and dropping the attitude that "by any means necessary" is an appropriate political posture.

Of course, if that were to happen, someone would be canonized.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I thought you knew! Magic --- You have to rub the lamp.

Just to stand-up and say you are a nation, a sovereign entity, is not enough. The nation has to be self-governing, with the ability to stand on its own.

How is it supposed to do that when a bunch of assholes have it under illegal military occupation?

(COMMENT)

Sorry --- I just couldn't pass that up.

Neither side can magically go back in the past and fix the mistakes they have made. All the people of Palestine (West Bank and Gaza Strip) can do now is move forward in terms of peace. That means dismantling their terrorist arms associations and establish normal relations; seriously considering the faithful observance of the principles of international law concerning friendly relations and co-operation among States and the fulfillment in good faith of the obligations assumed by States, in accordance with the Charter. These are the cornerstones of greatest importance to the Arab Palestinians in the maintenance of regional and international peace.

It is that simple. You would be surprised at how many nations would chip in to help if the Arab Palestinian abandon the HAMAS Covenant and Palestinian National Charter; divesting themselves of all forms of aggression and dropping the attitude that "by any means necessary" is an appropriate political posture.

Of course, if that were to happen, someone would be canonized.

Most Respectfully,
R

Rocco,

Are you saying that the Palestinians who were attacked by the Zionists a hundred years ago should surrender, disarm, and hold their hand out to Israel for whatever few crumbs of their own country they might get?

 

[pbel]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I thought you knew! Magic --- You have to rub the lamp.

​

How is it supposed to do that when a bunch of assholes have it under illegal military occupation?

(COMMENT)

Sorry --- I just couldn't pass that up.

Neither side can magically go back in the past and fix the mistakes they have made. All the people of Palestine (West Bank and Gaza Strip) can do now is move forward in terms of peace. That means dismantling their terrorist arms associations and establish normal relations; seriously considering the faithful observance of the principles of international law concerning friendly relations and co-operation among States and the fulfillment in good faith of the obligations assumed by States, in accordance with the Charter. These are the cornerstones of greatest importance to the Arab Palestinians in the maintenance of regional and international peace.

It is that simple. You would be surprised at how many nations would chip in to help if the Arab Palestinian abandon the HAMAS Covenant and Palestinian National Charter; divesting themselves of all forms of aggression and dropping the attitude that "by any means necessary" is an appropriate political posture.

Of course, if that were to happen, someone would be canonized.

Most Respectfully,
R

Rocco,

Are you saying that the Palestinians who were attacked by the Zionists a hundred years ago should surrender, disarm, and hold their hand out to Israel for whatever few crumbs of their own country they might get?

Of course Tinnie: Noblesse oblige

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: In a word: Yes!

Rocco,

Are you saying that the Palestinians who were attacked by the Zionists a hundred years ago should surrender, disarm, and hold their hand out to Israel for whatever few crumbs of their own country they might get?

(COMMENT)

A century ago, clearly the "Zionist" were not the aggressor. There was no invasion, no attack, no assumption of anything. And we could argue this all day long. You have your mind-set.

But, if you say a 100 years, so be it. Look at it logically. If you (the Arab Palestinian) could not win in all that time, there is something wrong (aptitude, intelligence, divine intervention --- something). Whatever it is, you have to ask yourself:

• Is it in the best interest of the people, their future, and their development to continue?
• Do you want to corrupt each successive generation, to live the way they live now with no reasonable expectation of a prosperous nation?
• OR --- do you want to build a healthy and prosperous nation that each successive generation can be proud of, pass-on the legacy of health, wealth and prosperity?

I think it is time that, no matter what the grievance, start acting either like a nation and build their heritage --- or --- ask to be annexed by Egypt and Jordan.

But this slow and agonizing death of a nation and people is not in the best interest of the people or their descendants.

Just my thought. Step back and look to the good of the people.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Kondor3]

"...Are you saying that the Palestinians who were attacked by the Zionists a hundred years ago should surrender, disarm, and hold their hand out to Israel for whatever few crumbs of their own country they might get?"

Yes. The other way really isn't getting them anywhere, is it?

 

[P F Tinmore]

A century ago, clearly the "Zionist" were not the aggressor.

Bullcrap, Rocco.

Did the Palestinians go to Europe and attack the Zionists?

Or...

Did the Zionists go to Palestine to take over the country?

 

[Indeependent]

A century ago, clearly the "Zionist" were not the aggressor.

Bullcrap, Rocco.

Did the Palestinians go to Europe and attack the Zionists?

Or...

Did the Zionists go to Palestine to take over the country?

Or...

Is Tinny a Revisionist?

 

[toastman]

A century ago, clearly the "Zionist" were not the aggressor.

Bullcrap, Rocco.

Did the Palestinians go to Europe and attack the Zionists?

Or...

Did the Zionists go to Palestine to take over the country?

Wow such Palestinian propaganda. Why do you always bring that it was the Zionists that came to Palestine?? What does that matter, specially since you dont know why they came???
Again, they were invited and their immigration fascilitated by the British because of them potentially having their own country one day. They were suffering severe anti Semitism in Europe and needed to get out of there. Thank goodness the Brits recognized this.
Also, there was no country to take over, that is just a lie you keep repeating because even though you know Im right, without the 'taking over their country' propaganda lie, your whole agenda is shattered.

 

[toastman]

A century ago, clearly the "Zionist" were not the aggressor.

Bullcrap, Rocco.

Did the Palestinians go to Europe and attack the Zionists?

Or...

Did the Zionists go to Palestine to take over the country?

Or...

Is Tinny a Revisionist?

Im starting to believe hes getting paid to spread anti Zionist lies. There's no way someone could make up the crap that he has and parrot it so many times

 

[toastman]

You hit the nail on the head...I argue on these boards that only a real amicable peace deal blessed by the Arab League that has offered full recognition and trade can save Israel...Israel ignores the long term threat of attritional wars that have thus far been successful against all previous invaders.

Sure, Rocco, Toast, and the rest of the Zionuts prefer walls and war. The Christian Crusaders tried this, they lost in 300 years of constant vigilance and cold wars.

If Israel controls E. Jerusalem, there will never be peace...

They can wait and die fighting, they have done that because their Religion is their guide...

They will never bow!!!

I dont prefer walls liar, I prefer peace AND security for Israel.

The problem with leftytards like you is that you could care less about Israels security and that you underestimate the true intentions of many Palestinians and the Arab world.

Jerusalem will never be divided again.

Comprende??

The problem with dummies like you is how invincible Israel is: Just keep a ticket read for a quick escape...before a nuke befalls you on your self-created Armageddon.

Yes, nuking Israel is the only way to get then to comply with what is being asked of them.
How desperate and angry do you have to be Pbel to bring that up the way you did. I didnt mean to get under your skin, relax dummie

And I never said Israel in invincible nor do I believe that. Nice try.
Actually, it was pretty pathetic.
Now, where were we??
Oh Ya!

JERUSALEM WILL NEVER BE DIVIDED AGAIN.

NOW do you understand?????

 

[toastman]

P F Tinmore, et al,

A misinterpretation of the obvious. The Treaty of Lausanne does not mention Palestine even once. It does not alter the Palestine Order in Council or the Mandate, or the interpretation of Article 22 of the LoN Covenant.

The status of Palestine and the nationality of its inhabitants were finally settled by the Treaty of Lausanne from the perspective of public international law. In a report submitted to the League of Nations, the British government pointed out: “The ratification of the Treaty of Lausanne in Aug., 1924, finally regularised the international status of Palestine.”123 And, thereafter, “Palestine could, at last, obtain a separate nationality.”124

Genesis of Citizenship in Palestine and Israel

(COMMENT)

Under the Treaty of Lausanne, the territory now discussed, formerly the Mandate of Palestine, as designated in Part I, Paragraph 1 of the Palestine Order in Council, was under the general heading of SECTION I, PART I, TERRITORIAL CLAUSES, ARTICLE 3 - From the Mediterranean to the frontier of Persia, the frontier of Turkey is laid down as follows:

• (1) With Syria:
• (2) With Iraq:

This Palestinian fallacy was discussed at length in Post #87 (U.N. rights inquiry says Israel must remove settlers). And the issue of "nationality" was laid down in the Treaty of Lausanne in SECTION II - NATIONALITY - ARTICLES 30 thru 36. Yes there was a choice to be made, but "Palestinian" was not one of the choices. Hence, the need for Order in Council clarification:

And in reading the order, one must remember what is being said when they use the word "Palestine."


Finally, it is important to remember the 1948 interpretation of Palestine:

"Palestine is today a legal entity but it is not a sovereign state. Palestine is a territory administered under mandate by His Majesty (in respect of the United Kingdom), who is entirely responsible both for its internal administration and for its foreign affairs.

"After the 15th May, 1948, Palestine will continue to be a legal entity but it will still not be a sovereign state because it will not be immediately self-governing. The authority responsible for its administration will, however, have changed. -

SOURCE: PAL/138 27 February 1948

From beginning to end - Palestine (which describes the Mandate for Palestine as the assigned interpretation) was nothing more than a "legal entity" and never a sovereign state until its Declaration of Independence in 1988; and even then, as a self-governing institution, under a stable government, able to stand alone, it is still arguable.

Most Respectfully,
R

Rocco,

Are you trying to say that the Palestinians, the native citizens of Palestine, living on their own land inside their own international borders do not have the right to self determination without external interference?

Holy deflection Spiderman!!! (You can use Batman).

What Rocco is 'saying' is pretty clear. I fail to see how he could have posted what he did more clearly

 

[toastman]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I thought you knew! Magic --- You have to rub the lamp.

​

How is it supposed to do that when a bunch of assholes have it under illegal military occupation?

(COMMENT)

Sorry --- I just couldn't pass that up.

Neither side can magically go back in the past and fix the mistakes they have made. All the people of Palestine (West Bank and Gaza Strip) can do now is move forward in terms of peace. That means dismantling their terrorist arms associations and establish normal relations; seriously considering the faithful observance of the principles of international law concerning friendly relations and co-operation among States and the fulfillment in good faith of the obligations assumed by States, in accordance with the Charter. These are the cornerstones of greatest importance to the Arab Palestinians in the maintenance of regional and international peace.

It is that simple. You would be surprised at how many nations would chip in to help if the Arab Palestinian abandon the HAMAS Covenant and Palestinian National Charter; divesting themselves of all forms of aggression and dropping the attitude that "by any means necessary" is an appropriate political posture.

Of course, if that were to happen, someone would be canonized.

Most Respectfully,
R

Rocco,

Are you saying that the Palestinians who were attacked by the Zionists a hundred years ago should surrender, disarm, and hold their hand out to Israel for whatever few crumbs of their own country they might get?

How can one person be so full of shit???
What attack are you talking about? Got a link??

 

[Billo_Really]

Wow such Palestinian propaganda.

It's not propaganda.

Why do you always bring that it was the Zionists that came to Palestine??

Because that's exactly what they did.

What does that matter, specially since you dont know why they came???

That's personal! What matters, is what they did when they got here.

Again, they were invited and their immigration fascilitated by the British because of them potentially having their own country one day.

And they constantly violated immigration levels set by the British.

They were suffering severe anti Semitism in Europe and needed to get out of there.

That doesn't justify making the Pals suffer when they got here.

Thank goodness the Brits recognized this.

They also recognized the jewish terrorist group that bombed their hotel.

Also, there was no country to take over, that is just a lie you keep repeating because even though you know Im right, without the 'taking over their country' propaganda lie, your whole agenda is shattered.

No takeover?

Tell that to the over 700,000 indigenous arabs that were driven from their homes by jewish terrorist groups like Irgun.

 

[toastman]

Wow such Palestinian propaganda.

It's not propaganda.

Why do you always bring that it was the Zionists that came to Palestine??

Because that's exactly what they did.

That's personal! What matters, is what they did when they got here.

And they constantly violated immigration levels set by the British.

So? Irrevant
That doesn't justify making the Pals suffer when they got here.
I never said it did. Irrelevant

Thank goodness the Brits recognized this.

They also recognized the jewish terrorist group that bombed their hotel.
Irrelevant to what we are discussing.

Also, there was no country to take over, that is just a lie you keep repeating because even though you know Im right, without the 'taking over their country' propaganda lie, your whole agenda is shattered.

No takeover?

Tell that to the over 700,000 indigenous arabs that were driven from their homes by jewish terrorist groups like Irgun

Learn to read I said there was no COUNTRY to take over. Taking over villages during a war where the Palestinians joined the the Arabs to destroy Israel and push the Jews to the sea is not taking over a mythical country. BOTH sides were trying to push eachother out, but the Jews won so get over it and stop whining.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Wow such Palestinian propaganda.

It's not propaganda.

Because that's exactly what they did.

That's personal! What matters, is what they did when they got here.

And they constantly violated immigration levels set by the British.

So? Irrevant
That doesn't justify making the Pals suffer when they got here.
I never said it did. Irrelevant
They also recognized the jewish terrorist group that bombed their hotel.
Irrelevant to what we are discussing.

Also, there was no country to take over, that is just a lie you keep repeating because even though you know Im right, without the 'taking over their country' propaganda lie, your whole agenda is shattered.

No takeover?

Tell that to the over 700,000 indigenous arabs that were driven from their homes by jewish terrorist groups like Irgun

Learn to read I said there was no COUNTRY to take over. Taking over villages during a war where the Palestinians joined the the Arabs to destroy Israel and push the Jews to the sea is not taking over a mythical country. BOTH sides were trying to push eachother out, but the Jews won so get over it and stop whining.

Now all you have to do is get millions of Palestinians to believe that load of crap.

Good luck with that.