Zone1 I haven't found many Churches (or "churches") that have much charity

[nomadic5]

Infallible? There is nothing that says Peter was infallible. Heck, Moses wasn’t infallible.

Protestants do not understand the Infallibility issue

Being infallible in faith and morals, a charism popes have, does not mean that the pope can never say anything imperfect. It just means that when he is teaching something to be accepted / lived by all Christians, he is not going to err.

That is not so hard to believe when you consider that when ANY human being is super-careful about what he or she isdoing/saying, and does not want to be misunderstood or whatever, that person can indeed say and do things that are flawless. It happens a lot.

This said, I do not claim that the way I have worded this Catholic teaching is... ha ha.. infallibly worded to the extent it can be guaranteed not to lead anyone .. where the Church doesn't want folks to go or what have you.. Theologians can and do find better ways of saying what I said... although I don't think I did too poorly

It is like a mechanic who knows engines. He knows cars and can be expected to fix your car properly (if he is honest and etc), be trusted to not make a big mistake.. because he knows the subject matter (not that that is the perfect analogy but whatever..)

 

[Cougarbear]

Protestants do not understand the Infallibility issue

Being infallible in faith and morals, a charism popes have, does not mean that the pope can never say anything imperfect. It just means that when he is teaching something to be accepted / lived by all Christians, he is not going to err.

That is not so hard to believe when you consider that when ANY human being is super-careful about what he or she isdoing/saying, and does not want to be misunderstood or whatever, that person can indeed say and do things that are flawless. It happens a lot.

This said, I do not claim that the way I have worded this Catholic teaching is... ha ha.. infallibly worded to the extent it can be guaranteed not to lead anyone .. where the Church doesn't want folks to go or what have you.. Theologians can and do find better ways of saying what I said... although I don't think I did too poorly

It is like a mechanic who knows engines. He knows cars and can be expected to fix your car properly (if he is honest and etc), be trusted to not make a big mistake.. because he knows the subject matter (not that that is the perfect analogy but whatever..)

I enjoy your posts. They are well thought out and expressed. I taught high school at a Catholic School for 16 years. I had many conversations with "Fathers", "priests" and religion teachers. As well as some science teachers too. In fact, one Father went to the University of Utah and I went to BYU. We had some fun conversations. I don't consider myself or our church, Protestant. We did not leave the RCC. Instead, Father and Son came to a boy and called him to be the Prophet and re-open the Heavens to prophecy, seers and revelations again after centuries of a closed off Heaven. When I mention Joseph Smith to protestants and others in here, their response is always to find some fallibility in Joseph to discredit him. Much like they do with Catholic Popes. And, we both know that there has been many immoral popes in the past and certainly unethical as well, questioning their "faith" in Christ as well. So, I don't use that sort of stuff to say that the Catholic Church doesn't have authority to administer ordinances. My simple reason is because the Church that has the true Gospel of Jesus Christ and authority to administer the ordinances must have apostles and prophets. Apostles and Prophets ceased to exist after John the Revelator died. There would need to be a restoration and restitution of all things pertaining to the Gospel, ordinances and the administration of the Church. A new prophet would be needed. Popes don't even claim to be prophets. My understanding is that popes have this internal like computer chip in them that has all that Christ wants to be done. That's not how prophets and apostles work with revelation. Here is what I'm talking about that we can debate a little from Acts 3:19-23, "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people."
My take is:
1. There will be a time after Jesus Christ was here of refreshing and restitution of "all" things (Ordinances)
2. Must be like a Prophet like unto Moses
3. Shall be raised up in the latter days (our days)

 

[Cougarbear]

Neither government, charities, nor churches can keep up with the self-inflicted needs of the people.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has done a very good job with their extensive welfare program and "Just Serve" and "Helping Hands" programs to serve the people they are responsible for and now beyond to all of the world. The RCC does a very good job getting food and necessities through their transportation methods to the people intended. The LDS Church uses their transportation in many cases around the world.

 

[nomadic5]

I enjoy your posts. They are well thought out and expressed. I taught high school at a Catholic School for 16 years. I had many conversations with "Fathers", "priests" and religion teachers. As well as some science teachers too. In fact, one Father went to the University of Utah and I went to BYU. We had some fun conversations. I don't consider myself or our church, Protestant. We did not leave the RCC. Instead, Father and Son came to a boy and called him to be the Prophet and re-open the Heavens to prophecy, seers and revelations again after centuries of a closed off Heaven. When I mention Joseph Smith to protestants and others in here, their response is always to find some fallibility in Joseph to discredit him. Much like they do with Catholic Popes. And, we both know that there has been many immoral popes in the past and certainly unethical as well, questioning their "faith" in Christ as well. So, I don't use that sort of stuff to say that the Catholic Church doesn't have authority to administer ordinances. My simple reason is because the Church that has the true Gospel of Jesus Christ and authority to administer the ordinances must have apostles and prophets. Apostles and Prophets ceased to exist after John the Revelator died. There would need to be a restoration and restitution of all things pertaining to the Gospel, ordinances and the administration of the Church. A new prophet would be needed. Popes don't even claim to be prophets. My understanding is that popes have this internal like computer chip in them that has all that Christ wants to be done. That's not how prophets and apostles work with revelation. Here is what I'm talking about that we can debate a little from Acts 3:19-23, "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people."
My take is:
1. There will be a time after Jesus Christ was here of refreshing and restitution of "all" things (Ordinances)
2. Must be like a Prophet like unto Moses
3. Shall be raised up in the latter days (our days)

I don't see how you mormons get around this very important historical FACT

that their church (so called) did not begin until something like the 19th century!

That means that you think the Church went off the rails and there was a need for this prophet dude... J Smith

Well, that is erroneous. Jesus promised that the Church (THE Church He founded... He didnt found Church-ES, just ONE)

would not fail

"I will build My Church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it." Mt 16:18

There has never been and never will be a reason to start another "church"...

 

[Cougarbear]

I don't see how you mormons get around this very important historical FACT

that their church (so called) did not begin until something like the 19th century!

That means that you think the Church went off the rails and there was a need for this prophet dude... J Smith

Well, that is erroneous. Jesus promised that the Church (THE Church He founded... He didnt found Church-ES, just ONE)

would not fail

"I will build My Church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it." Mt 16:18

There has never been and never will be a reason to start another "church"...

No, he did not. He said that "His" Church would not lose to Satan. But, in order for that to happen, Jesus took His kingdom back to Heaven until the time was right to restore His Church again in the days of restitution of all things. The Bible is really clear that apostles must be able to testify and witness to the slain Christ that he atoned for our sins and was resurrected as well. Apostles are Prophets. And, there were none after John the Revelator. So, the Church no longer existed on the Earth, only in Heaven. Thus, Satan could not prevail against His Church. The good news is that Christ brought it back by first establishing apostles and prophets. Acts 19 proved my point as it was given by Paul himself.
Here's another prophecy for the latter days: Isaiah chapter 29. Here, an unlearned person was given a book that was sealed for centuries to do a Marvellous work and wonder in our latter days that would take your prudent )Learned) men and cause their understanding to perish. You can focus in on verses 11 through 14. Then 18 through 24 and learn true doctrine.

 

[Captain Caveman]

Wow - People demanding charity from churches

Get off your backsides and work harder

 

[nomadic5]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has done a very good job with their extensive welfare program and "Just Serve" and "Helping Hands" programs to serve the people they are responsible for and now beyond to all of the world. The RCC does a very good job getting food and necessities through their transportation methods to the people intended. The LDS Church uses their transportation in many cases around the world.

well, one of the only times in the New T where Jesus mentioned Heaven and Hell was in Mt 25:31

about helping the needy

Those who don't... "eternal punishment"

 

[nomadic5]

Wow - People demanding charity from churches

Get off your backsides and work harder

Please.

Eveyrone cannot easily get a job

What happens when one cannot?

I guess you'd say Tough... you can just die

???

 

[Cougarbear]

well, one of the only times in the New T where Jesus mentioned Heaven and Hell was in Mt 25:31

about helping the needy

Those who don't... "eternal punishment"

There were a lot of letters and books discarded over the millenniums. Jesus even said that all the things he taught the apostles could not be contained in all the books in the world. You must have wrote the wrong scripture down.
Well, the Lord said in Malachi 3:8, if tithes and offerings (for the poor and needy) aren't paid (1/10 of annual increase) we are robbing God. We rob the poor and the church, we rob God.

 

[Captain Caveman]

Please.

Eveyrone cannot easily get a job

What happens when one cannot?

I guess you'd say Tough... you can just die

???

Self employment, go cut grass, go wash a car, go clean windows, go sell window blinds, go do something.

 

[nomadic5]

Self employment, go cut grass, go wash a car, go clean windows, go sell window blinds, go do something.

good answer but some people can't even do that... debilitated by.. well, I've known people throughout the years who have very debilitating mental/psych issues... one of the most serious being they distrust EVERYONE...(severe ptsd) which would mean they may be afraid of --say-- mowing someone's grass.. What if the resident was some perv.. or whatever. That may sound like irrational fear to YOU but not to some...

I'm just saying, you can never know what is going on inside someone.. NEVER. And you shouldn't just ASSUME that that person who doesn't work doesn't want to..

Also, I know of a person who wanted to do the lawn mowing thing but had no place to store a lawn mower... I mean, you know, when you don't even have a place to store yourself....

 

[Captain Caveman]

good answer but some people can't even do that... debilitated by.. well, I've known people throughout the years who have very debilitating mental/psych issues... one of the most serious being they distrust EVERYONE...(severe ptsd) which would mean they may be afraid of --say-- mowing someone's grass.. What if the resident was some perv.. or whatever. That may sound like irrational fear to YOU but not to some...

I'm just saying, you can never know what is going on inside someone.. NEVER. And you shouldn't just ASSUME that that person who doesn't work doesn't want to..

Also, I know of a person who wanted to do the lawn mowing thing but had no place to store a lawn mower... I mean, you know, when you don't even have a place to store yourself....

Home based work.

 

[nomadic5]

Well, the Lord said in Malachi 3:8, if tithes and offerings (for the poor and needy) aren't paid (1/10 of annual increase) we are robbing God. We rob the poor and the church, we rob God.

What?!

Jesus said that whatever we do to the least of His people, we do to HIM

and He said that HE is God ("If you have seen Me you have seen the Father"... etc)

so whatever you do to the least of Christ's people, you do to GOD

 

[Cougarbear]

What?!

Jesus said that whatever we do to the least of His people, we do to HIM

and He said that HE is God ("If you have seen Me you have seen the Father"... etc)

so whatever you do to the least of Christ's people, you do to GOD

You have a comprehension issue again? If we do not pay or tithes and offerings, we are robbing God. That means that we are not giving to the church to be used for the poor and the needy. So, pay your tithes and offerings to the poor and the needy or you are robbing God and will go to hell.