How much do extremely wealthy people owe to the society that gave them the chance to prosper so much?

[Blues Man]

Not at all. Just because you are unable to identify evil when you see it, that doesn't mean nobody can.

I can identify what I think is evil. That's all you can do too.

Wrong, idiot. Evil can be demonstrated with logic.

you still need to define evil and unless you can point to a universal authority that everyone can agree on to provide that definition you cannot argue that evil is not subjective.

Does physics have a universal authority?

I rest my case.

no it doesn't our so called laws of physics only apply to the 5% of the matter and energy we understand we have no idea if they hold up for the 95% we don't understand

Non sequitur. The fact that we don't know all the laws of physics only demonstrates that ethics are basic principles of reality. We don't know all the laws of physics so why should we know all the laws of ethics?

"Blues Man, post: 26228957, member: 59019"]and morals and ethics aren't physics.

Neither are chemistry and biology.

Man defines what is good and evil right or wrong whereas a planet will orbit a star the same way no matter what a person says.
[/QUOTE]

Man defines what is wrong or right only in the same sense that he "defines" the law of gravity.

If you believe ethics and morality are arbitrary, just try building a society where murder and theft are defined as "good."
[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

Ethics and morals did not exist before man.

Ethics and morals are societal evaluations on behavior as to what is acceptable or not or in other words what is right or wrong.

Those have evolved over time as societies have evolved. If there were no humans there would be no societies and hence there would be be no morals or ethics no right and wrong.

But the earth would still orbit the sun and the solar system would still be part of the milky way galaxy.

and no one set out to "build a society" societies evolved as people evolved from nomadic tribes to larger and larger communities

 

[Anomalism]

evil can be measured,,

You are suggesting that evil can be measured and defined in an objective way? How?

 

[bripat9643]

Non sequitur. The fact that we don't know all the laws of physics only demonstrates that ethics are basic principles of reality. We don't know all the laws of physics so why should we know all the laws of ethics?

Physics can be measured. Subjective concepts cannot.

evil can be measured,,

The body count is one way to measure them. For communist "ethics" it was over 100 million.

 

[Anomalism]

Ethics and morals did not exist before man.

Ethics and morals are societal evaluations on behavior as to what is acceptable or not or in other words what is right or wrong.

Those have evolved over time as societies have evolved. If there were no humans there would be no societies and hence there would be be no morals or ethics no right and wrong.

But the earth would still orbit the sun and the solar system would still be part of the milky way galaxy.

I wonder if these people even understand objective vs subjective.

 

[progressive hunter]

But most of what the government does is done badly and ineffectively. Take your example of public schools. I certainly agree that a nation is better off having an educated populace. But public schools are a lot more than simply "not perfect"; they, like all bloated government bureaucracies, are serving every goal and interest EXCEPT the education of the students. The United States spends on average $12,800 per student for education. Our annual education spending is higher than the GDP of many countries. Do we have the best-educated students in the world? Does anyone really think having the best-educated students in the world is the primary goal of public school systems?

How do we make public schools better? I rarely hear anything but vague or ridiculous answers to that question.

There are many ideas presented for making government schools better. Throwing more money at them, however, is not a true solution, because we spend so much for mediocre returns.

the only way schools will ever get better is if the feds get out and the parents get in,,,

anything else is a waste of time and money,,

This is true. The strongest indicator of a successful education system is involved and motivated parents, and that applies to all forms of schooling, whether government, private, or homeschooling.

By "involved and motivated parents," you mean parants that actually do the teaching. Government schools don't actually teach jack shit. All they do is administer tests and record the score.

theres a lot of teaching going on up til 6th grade,, after that there used to be a lot of trades being taught, not sure whats going on now, the parents job is to keep the kids motivated and involved in their lessons and add to them when the kids start to flounder,,

no, actually there isn't. Like I said, I taught my stepson how to read and write. I taught him math. The government schools don't teach jack. They never taught me anything. Government schools are geared towards the dumbest kids in the class. That means smarter kids are left to daydream while the teacher concentrate on the dumbasses who endup getting degrees in black studies.

youre using a pretty broad brush there,, fact is youre an exception and not a rule,,,if what you said is even true,,

It's a rule for about 2/3ds of the class. The rest are hopeless.

better you dont speak of things you cant possibly know about,,

You must be a public school teacher.

not at all,,, just like you cant possibly know whats happening in every school in the country,,

 

[Cecilie1200]

I'm sure they did . . . for you. It's my KNOWLEDGE that every kid on Earth is not exactly like you. Humans are unique individuals, not interchangeable widgets.

Do you think there's a single student in the whole world that might benefit more from the divided attention of their educators?

I think you vastly overvalue "undivided attention" in the learning process. It's not uncommon for sheltered, spoiled children to be unable to comprehend functioning without being the center of everything.

 

[hadit]

Surely something, right? I see a lot of people talk like taxes are theft. Is it not just our obligation?

You won’t get many if any serious answers.
I feel they should pay at least the same percentage of income as the bulk of Americans pay. Unfortunately though our current system makes it cheaper for them to pay experts to avoid taxes altogether in some cases. See Trump.

See every multi-millionaire and billionaire and stop pretending it's something unique to TRUMP!. Why do you think Warren Buffet complains about the income tax being too low? He does it because most of his income is in capital gains, not regular income and he knows if it gets raised it won't effect him very much.

 

[Blues Man]

Surely something, right? I see a lot of people talk like taxes are theft. Is it not just our obligation?

You won’t get many if any serious answers.
I feel they should pay at least the same percentage of income as the bulk of Americans pay. Unfortunately though our current system makes it cheaper for them to pay experts to avoid taxes altogether in some cases. See Trump.

See every multi-millionaire and billionaire and stop pretending it's something unique to TRUMP!. Why do you think Warren Buffet complains about the income tax being too low? He does it because most of his income is in capital gains, not regular income and he knows if it gets raised it won't effect him very much.

Buffet is a hypocrite.

If he wants to pay more in taxes all he has to do stop paying himself 100K a year and raise his own salary to 10 million a year.

 

[bripat9643]

Surely something, right? I see a lot of people talk like taxes are theft. Is it not just our obligation?

You won’t get many if any serious answers.
I feel they should pay at least the same percentage of income as the bulk of Americans pay. Unfortunately though our current system makes it cheaper for them to pay experts to avoid taxes altogether in some cases. See Trump.

See every multi-millionaire and billionaire and stop pretending it's something unique to TRUMP!. Why do you think Warren Buffet complains about the income tax being too low? He does it because most of his income is in capital gains, not regular income and he knows if it gets raised it won't effect him very much.

Buffet is a hypocrite.

If he wants to pay more in taxes all he has to do stop paying himself 100K a year and raise his own salary to 10 million a year.

All he realy has to do is write a check to the U.S. Treasury for $30 billion

 

[Cecilie1200]

Some might call that "privilege"

That's exactly what it is.

and resent your family for its success and wealth.

Yeah...

Jealousy is a powerful emotion. I wish more people could have a more optimal education. There are some very bright people that just don't have that option.

On the other hand, people who aren't as pampered and privileged as you have been learned a great deal that you aren't even aware exists. It's not an accident that so many really successful people in this country did not come from easy, privileged childhoods.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Ethics and morals did not exist before man.

Ethics and morals are societal evaluations on behavior as to what is acceptable or not or in other words what is right or wrong.

Those have evolved over time as societies have evolved. If there were no humans there would be no societies and hence there would be be no morals or ethics no right and wrong.

But the earth would still orbit the sun and the solar system would still be part of the milky way galaxy.

I wonder if these people even understand objective vs subjective.

We do. You'll stop wondering when YOU understand them from the perspective of experience, rather than the perspective of "I've sat in my room and thought a whole bunch about this." It's very easy to say, "Evil is just subjective, it doesn't really exist" as a theoretical abstract; it's impossible once you encounter it.

 

[Cecilie1200]

But most of what the government does is done badly and ineffectively. Take your example of public schools. I certainly agree that a nation is better off having an educated populace. But public schools are a lot more than simply "not perfect"; they, like all bloated government bureaucracies, are serving every goal and interest EXCEPT the education of the students. The United States spends on average $12,800 per student for education. Our annual education spending is higher than the GDP of many countries. Do we have the best-educated students in the world? Does anyone really think having the best-educated students in the world is the primary goal of public school systems?

How do we make public schools better? I rarely hear anything but vague or ridiculous answers to that question.

There are many ideas presented for making government schools better. Throwing more money at them, however, is not a true solution, because we spend so much for mediocre returns.

And just because you give a school district more money doesn't mean any of it's going to make its way to the classroom.

 

[Cecilie1200]

That's like saying the concept of gravity was created by man.

Gravity can be measured and it existed long before we did. It's not some subjective concept like evil.

So in your mind, the litmus test between objective and subjective is measurement?

 

[Orangecat]

That’s because you’re only looking at the economy from a micro level and thinking yourself and the individual

You have to create a straw man and tell me what perspective is? You haven't a clue about how I'm looking at this issue..
And "thinking myself and the individual'? At least try to sound coherent in your BS.

 

[Cecilie1200]

But most of what the government does is done badly and ineffectively. Take your example of public schools. I certainly agree that a nation is better off having an educated populace. But public schools are a lot more than simply "not perfect"; they, like all bloated government bureaucracies, are serving every goal and interest EXCEPT the education of the students. The United States spends on average $12,800 per student for education. Our annual education spending is higher than the GDP of many countries. Do we have the best-educated students in the world? Does anyone really think having the best-educated students in the world is the primary goal of public school systems?

How do we make public schools better? I rarely hear anything but vague or ridiculous answers to that question.

There are many ideas presented for making government schools better. Throwing more money at them, however, is not a true solution, because we spend so much for mediocre returns.

the only way schools will ever get better is if the feds get out and the parents get in,,,

anything else is a waste of time and money,,

This is true. The strongest indicator of a successful education system is involved and motivated parents, and that applies to all forms of schooling, whether government, private, or homeschooling.

If only because it's much harder for schools to ignore involved and motivated parents in order to serve their own ends.

 

[Orangecat]

I’m not a Marxist

I didn't say you were. I said you espouse marxist views, like wealth redistribution, which are easily verifiable by reading your posts. Own it.

 

[Anomalism]

I think you vastly overvalue "undivided attention" in the learning process. It's not uncommon for sheltered, spoiled children to be unable to comprehend functioning without being the center of everything.

You seem to like anecdotes a lot.

 

[Cecilie1200]

But most of what the government does is done badly and ineffectively. Take your example of public schools. I certainly agree that a nation is better off having an educated populace. But public schools are a lot more than simply "not perfect"; they, like all bloated government bureaucracies, are serving every goal and interest EXCEPT the education of the students. The United States spends on average $12,800 per student for education. Our annual education spending is higher than the GDP of many countries. Do we have the best-educated students in the world? Does anyone really think having the best-educated students in the world is the primary goal of public school systems?

How do we make public schools better? I rarely hear anything but vague or ridiculous answers to that question.

There are many ideas presented for making government schools better. Throwing more money at them, however, is not a true solution, because we spend so much for mediocre returns.

the only way schools will ever get better is if the feds get out and the parents get in,,,

anything else is a waste of time and money,,

This is true. The strongest indicator of a successful education system is involved and motivated parents, and that applies to all forms of schooling, whether government, private, or homeschooling.

By "involved and motivated parents," you mean parants that actually do the teaching. Government schools don't actually teach jack shit. All they do is administer tests and record the score.

Sometimes. Sometimes, it just means parents who know what's going on in their kids' schools and are willing to make it clear to the teacher, administrators, and school board that they're not going to tolerate shenanigans.

 

[Orangecat]

We are about to waste a lot of resources and cost the common citizen a lot of his/her family or personal wealth for grandoise projects.

Don't forget the subtle marxism of raising the taxes on some and relieving the loan debt of others.

 

[Anomalism]

On the other hand, people who aren't as pampered and privileged as you have been learned a great deal that you aren't even aware exists. It's not an accident that so many really successful people in this country did not come from easy, privileged childhoods.

Your constant condescension and self-congratulating attitude make me wonder if you have a personality disorder.