How Lucky Are Humans, and the World, for that Matter?

[Hollie]

I’m not ignoring the “scientific evidence” you’re posting. I’m challenging you to identify how any of it supports your claims to partisan gods.

The majority of your “scientific evidence” is boilerplate from any of the fundamentalist Christian ministries. Creationists like to use to "support" their claims. Aren't selective quoting and argumentum ad verecundiam fun?

The existence of various parameters in nature being in such a state to produce life is well known among the physics community, but surely you realize (although refuse to accept), that there is a world of difference between natural forces and "intelligent design", and that the latter does not logically follow from the former?

The intelligent design / creationist argument simply states that “if things were different, things would be different”. Well, yeah. If today was Tuesday, it wouldn’t be Monday.

Even if we acknowledge that parameters are godly “fine-tuned”, why should anyone accept that it is your gods are the fine tuners? Your gods are only three assertions of the gods so you might want to present evidence for your gods before insisting that your gods are the only fine tuning gods.

The universe could fine-tune itself. Self-organizing critical systems (Ecosystem as self-organizing critical systems) are capable of fine-tuning all by themselves, following only a simple set of physical laws -- thus making it likely that the parameters are "fine-tuned" the way we see them by purely natural mechanisms.

 

[Hollie]

The next fine tuning point #s are from our article here:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

Note the following point #'s 1-4 are points 3 - 6 in my list of fine tuning of the earth:

[Note: the SETI search for earthlike planets only considers a couple of the fine tuned properties for a planet to have a surface environment conducive to life - none of these planets would actually allow life as we know it to survive]

"1. Earth’s location in the Milky Way galaxy and the solar system, as well as the planet’s orbit, tilt, rotational speed, and moon

2. A magnetic field and atmosphere that serve as a dual shield

3. An abundance of water

4. Natural cycles that replenish and cleanse the biosphere"

So, #1 is #3 in my list:

3A - Earth's location in Milky Way galaxy:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

"

Could the earth be located in a better position to host life?

When you write down your address, what do you include? You might put in your country, city, and street. By way of comparison, let’s call the Milky Way galaxy earth’s “country,” the solar system—that is, the sun and its planets—earth’s “city,” and earth’s orbit within the solar system earth’s “street.” Thanks to advances in astronomy and physics, scientists have gained deep insights into the merits of our special spot in the universe.

To begin with, our “city,” or solar system, is located in the ideal region of the Milky Way galaxy—not too close to the center and not too far from it. This “habitable zone,” as scientists call it, contains just the right concentrations of the chemical elements needed to support life. Farther out, those elements are too scarce; farther in, the neighborhood is too dangerous because of the greater abundance of potentially lethal radiation and other factors. “We live in prime real estate,” says Scientific American magazine.1"

Reference 1 -

Bibliography — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

1. Scientific American, Special Issue 2008 entitled “Majestic Universe,” p. 11.

It’s entirely predictable that the JW’s would use the falsely labeled “fine tuning” argument to prove their gods but the chaos and violence of the universe doesn’t support a “fine tuning” claim and nothing about the universe supports any notions of gods.

Chaos?

I'm not sure what you are referring to - perhaps you could clarify.

One example of fine-tuned violence is Supernovas. Without supernovas the only elements that would have come into existence would have been Lithium and Hydrogen to Helium (which is inert), You cannot have life as we know it with just those elements present in the universe.

Further, no stars would have even existed in our universe without the fine tuned expansion rate of our universe (involving gravity, dark energy, and the cause of the labelled "big bang.").

The fine tuned ratios of the 4 force of physics also were required. (electromagnetic, gravity, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force).

The Bible simplifies this in Job 38:33 which refers to the laws governing our universe. Far from chaos, the universe obeys laws and also has fine tuned properties. I will continue my list later - offline for awhile.

You all; shelter in ;place! You can't catch viruses ln the internet!

Supernova are good examples of chaos as they obliterate nearby (in galactic terms), objects. Galaxies collide and black holes swallow regions of space, comets bombard planets and cosmic radiation can destroy biological life.

So I’m not seeing the “fine tuning” you claim your gods have performed.

Maybe if you first offered some evidence for your gods, you could then offer some evidence they “fine tuned” something.

 

[james bond]

Its billions, not millions, of years.
Also, it didnt wipe out life in an instant.
JS

Both billions and millions years would be impossible. We would've been wiped out by an asteroid or multiple hits from space. Furthermore, the rocks and fossils would've cracked, crumbled, and turned back to carbon. It would be due to weathering, chemical processes, and mechanical processes. We used to believe the universe was eternal, but that turned out to be pseudoscience. We see galaxies, suns, planets, moons, and other bodies collide, explode, speed away from us never to be seen again, etc. Even our galaxy would not last that long. We know now that there are no multiverses, so our theoretical physicists claim there are multidimensions based on their string theory.

 

[james bond]

Extinction is the only other option. I'm an optimist so I say it is inevitable.

You have been watching too many sci-fi movies.

Elon Musk has said the same. See my sign. He's got more science cred than you.

 

[ding]

Extinction is the only other option. I'm an optimist so I say it is inevitable.

You have been watching too many sci-fi movies.

Elon Musk has said the same. See my sign. He's got more science cred than you.

No doubt.

 

[Bruce Daniels]

That we're able to exist even now, at this instant that I type this.

Based on the belief of atheists, this earth, has been in existence for millions, and millions of years now, starting w/of course, the Big Bang.

That there's all types of gargantuan stars, suns, meteors, planets etc, all around the universe swirling around and that could ultimately, at one point smash in to us.

Remember, that's what they claimed happened to make the dinosaurs go extinct and caused the Ice Age. A giant meteor that all but destroyed all life on earth...in an instant.

So that was millions of years ago, aren't we due for another one right about now?

What's stopping us from being destroyed by a super meteor at any point? And how do you feel w/the knowledge that this can happen at any instant?

I'd like to hear from our resident atheists on this.

What are your thoughts?

I am an atheist, or as I like to call myself, a Realist. (Why should I define myself by something I DON'T believe in? A-theist = No god) And yes, there is lots of evidence that the Earth is millions of years old, and the Big Bang has been deduced from various observable facts. And yes, the universe seems to be a chaotic, dangerous place -- as we're finding out right now with Covid-19. And unfortunately, the only thing that's stopping us from being destroyed by a "super meteor" is luck (or God, if you want to go that route).

Part of the reason that I hate religion is that it gives people false hope. Even if their lives in this world are terrible, they're promised a better one in the "next world." There isn't any next world. This is it. This is all we get. And you know what? For all its sorrows, this world is pretty great. A beautiful sunset, an inspiring piece of music, a delicious meal, or the love of someone -- you really should appreciate them while you have them. Because that's all you get. But it's enough.

Faith isn’t about the destination. It’s about the journey. And understanding how things are connected and work for good increases one’s enjoyment of the journey.

If you want to put your "faith" in a nonexistent being, go right ahead. My only regret is that after we're all dead, I'll never get to say, "I told you so!" (Oh, wait -- I just did!)

 

[Bruce Daniels]

That we're able to exist even now, at this instant that I type this.

Based on the belief of atheists, this earth, has been in existence for millions, and millions of years now, starting w/of course, the Big Bang.

That there's all types of gargantuan stars, suns, meteors, planets etc, all around the universe swirling around and that could ultimately, at one point smash in to us.

Remember, that's what they claimed happened to make the dinosaurs go extinct and caused the Ice Age. A giant meteor that all but destroyed all life on earth...in an instant.

So that was millions of years ago, aren't we due for another one right about now?

What's stopping us from being destroyed by a super meteor at any point? And how do you feel w/the knowledge that this can happen at any instant?

I'd like to hear from our resident atheists on this.

What are your thoughts?

I am an atheist, or as I like to call myself, a Realist. (Why should I define myself by something I DON'T believe in? A-theist = No god) And yes, there is lots of evidence that the Earth is millions of years old, and the Big Bang has been deduced from various observable facts. And yes, the universe seems to be a chaotic, dangerous place -- as we're finding out right now with Covid-19. And unfortunately, the only thing that's stopping us from being destroyed by a "super meteor" is luck (or God, if you want to go that route).

Part of the reason that I hate religion is that it gives people false hope. Even if their lives in this world are terrible, they're promised a better one in the "next world." There isn't any next world. This is it. This is all we get. And you know what? For all its sorrows, this world is pretty great. A beautiful sunset, an inspiring piece of music, a delicious meal, or the love of someone -- you really should appreciate them while you have them. Because that's all you get. But it's enough.

Well, we believe righteous mankind will live on the earth forever and that earth will be a paradise forever. (Psalms 37:29) We were not created to live in heaven - see 1 Corinthians 15:50.

K-40 dating of Earth's shield rock puts the age of earth's solid crust at c. 4.4 billion years. That being said, with all the CO2 in earth's crustal carbonates - why didn't we end up with an atmosphere of mostly CO2 and an extreme greenhouse effect like on Venus? Why, instead, did earth's primordial waters/oceans remove this CO2 and lock it in earth's crust by the geologic carbon cycle?

All of the many ways that make earth the beautiful home that it still is (though man is ruining it) is reason to praise Jehovah! Who else could have fine tuned our earth so lovingly? (1 John 4:8)

Its not luck - its love - God's love! For other examples of how the earth and universe has been fine tuned, see this article for starters:

Purposeful Design or Mindless Process? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Believe whatever nonsense you want.

 

[Bruce Daniels]

That we're able to exist even now, at this instant that I type this.

Based on the belief of atheists, this earth, has been in existence for millions, and millions of years now, starting w/of course, the Big Bang.

That there's all types of gargantuan stars, suns, meteors, planets etc, all around the universe swirling around and that could ultimately, at one point smash in to us.

Remember, that's what they claimed happened to make the dinosaurs go extinct and caused the Ice Age. A giant meteor that all but destroyed all life on earth...in an instant.

So that was millions of years ago, aren't we due for another one right about now?

What's stopping us from being destroyed by a super meteor at any point? And how do you feel w/the knowledge that this can happen at any instant?

I'd like to hear from our resident atheists on this.

What are your thoughts?

It was an inevitability that we exist. No luck about it.

No, it wasn't inevitable. It was chance. If the dinosaurs hadn't been wiped out by a meteor 65 million years ago, we wouldn't exist. But we DO exist. And that's a good thing, right?

No. It is inevitable that intelligence will arise. Since the very beginning energy has complexified and has not ceased. In fact, SETI searches for intelligent life for this very reason. They literally expect to find it because the nature of the universe is to create beings that know and create.

The evidence shows that for more than 3 BILLION years, life on Earth was single-celled. If it's inevitable that intelligence will arise, it sure took its sweet time about it. And your evidence for "the nature of the universe is to create beings that know and create" is what?

 

[Bruce Daniels]

That we're able to exist even now, at this instant that I type this.

Based on the belief of atheists, this earth, has been in existence for millions, and millions of years now, starting w/of course, the Big Bang.

That there's all types of gargantuan stars, suns, meteors, planets etc, all around the universe swirling around and that could ultimately, at one point smash in to us.

Remember, that's what they claimed happened to make the dinosaurs go extinct and caused the Ice Age. A giant meteor that all but destroyed all life on earth...in an instant.

So that was millions of years ago, aren't we due for another one right about now?

What's stopping us from being destroyed by a super meteor at any point? And how do you feel w/the knowledge that this can happen at any instant?

I'd like to hear from our resident atheists on this.

What are your thoughts?

It was an inevitability that we exist. No luck about it.

No, it wasn't inevitable. It was chance. If the dinosaurs hadn't been wiped out by a meteor 65 million years ago, we wouldn't exist. But we DO exist. And that's a good thing, right?

No. It is inevitable that intelligence will arise. Since the very beginning energy has complexified and has not ceased. In fact, SETI searches for intelligent life for this very reason. They literally expect to find it because the nature of the universe is to create beings that know and create.

Informational molecules do not arise by chance - only statistical molecules arise by chance - and even they are due to the fine tuning of our universe.

"Informational molecules do not arise by chance - only statistical molecules arise by chance - and even they are due to the fine tuning of our universe." First, what does that even mean? And second, what's your evidence?

 

[Bruce Daniels]

That we're able to exist even now, at this instant that I type this.

Based on the belief of atheists, this earth, has been in existence for millions, and millions of years now, starting w/of course, the Big Bang.

That there's all types of gargantuan stars, suns, meteors, planets etc, all around the universe swirling around and that could ultimately, at one point smash in to us.

Remember, that's what they claimed happened to make the dinosaurs go extinct and caused the Ice Age. A giant meteor that all but destroyed all life on earth...in an instant.

So that was millions of years ago, aren't we due for another one right about now?

What's stopping us from being destroyed by a super meteor at any point? And how do you feel w/the knowledge that this can happen at any instant?

I'd like to hear from our resident atheists on this.

What are your thoughts?

It was an inevitability that we exist. No luck about it.

No, it wasn't inevitable. It was chance. If the dinosaurs hadn't been wiped out by a meteor 65 million years ago, we wouldn't exist. But we DO exist. And that's a good thing, right?

No. It is inevitable that intelligence will arise. Since the very beginning energy has complexified and has not ceased. In fact, SETI searches for intelligent life for this very reason. They literally expect to find it because the nature of the universe is to create beings that know and create.

Informational molecules do not arise by chance - only statistical molecules arise by chance - and even they are due to the fine tuning of our universe.

I don’t understand what you are trying to get at. What are you trying to say?

See the article I linked to.

Bottom line - the fine tuning of our universe, star, magnetic field, ozone layer, and earth as a whole is due to God's love - not luck.

Would you like me to list in detail some of these examples of fine tuning?

Or were you referring to my reference to informational vs. statistical molecules?

That would be a chemistry tangent - for starters DNA would be useless for life if it was not precisely coded in a chemical language (cp. a book). Not to mention the need for a messenger molecule (RNA) to read this information and use it in one of the many processes required for life.

And that is just one of the many informational molecules required for life.

It boils down to the difference between life and death. One cause for death is the second law of thermodynamics and specifically the principle of entropy which causes informational molecules to decay to their most stable state - which is non-living matter. It doesn't go the other way - from death to life - without informational molecules in living things. See the many aspects of the origin of life by chemistry directed by information/intelligence vs. statistical molecules.

A simple example - in origin of life experiments many amino acids are produced by chance + an environment produced by intelligent creators (humans). But the primary product is formic acid - this fact is usually omitted by chemical evolutionists. And besides that many amino acids useless for life are produced - another fact covered over by chemical evolutionists (and popular media programs).

And, of course, chirality - but that is just left or right hand polarization of molecules.

Also usually ignored is the precise 3-d shape of molecules required for life - such as enzymes and receptor molecules.

Would you like me to post more detail on this?

If you presuppose the existence of a Divine Being in control of the universe, of course it follows that everything that happens is the result of Its actions. But if you make no such supposition, then everything that has happened is the result of chance, and/or is simply the way of the universe. The proof is that THIS is the universe which exists. That explanation makes just as much sense as yours, and it doesn't require the intervention of a supernatural being.

 

[MarcATL]

Its billions, not millions, of years.
Also, it didnt wipe out life in an instant.
JS

Go on...tell me all the details you know of what occurred, uhm, billions of years ago.

What else?

 

[there4eyeM]

The very presence of creatures such as we is so impressive that searching for the "why" and "wherefore" seems natural. We must, nonetheless, be prepared for questions that are impossible to answer. That is so profoundly disappointing for some of us that false certainty is interposed. We have to be prepared for that, too.

 

[alang1216]

Extinction is the only other option. I'm an optimist so I say it is inevitable.

You have been watching too many sci-fi movies.

It's only fiction until it is not. How many things we have today first appeared in sci-fi?

 

[james bond]

If you want to put your "faith" in a nonexistent being, go right ahead. My only regret is that after we're all dead, I'll never get to say, "I told you so!" (Oh, wait -- I just did!)

"Then our mouth was filled with laughter, and our tongue with shouts of joy; then they said among the nations, “The Lord has done great things for them.” Psalm 126:2

If you are wrong and atheists are usually wrong, he who laughs last, laughs best.

 

[Hollie]

If you want to put your "faith" in a nonexistent being, go right ahead. My only regret is that after we're all dead, I'll never get to say, "I told you so!" (Oh, wait -- I just did!)

"Then our mouth was filled with laughter, and our tongue with shouts of joy; then they said among the nations, “The Lord has done great things for them.” Psalm 126:2

If you are wrong and atheists are usually wrong, he who laughs last, laughs best.

If you are wrong and religious extremists are typically wrong then Blaise Pascal (and everyone else) will laugh at you.

“If there were a verb meaning "to believe falsely," it would not have any significant first person, present indicative.”
― Ludwig Wittgenstein

 

[ding]

That we're able to exist even now, at this instant that I type this.

Based on the belief of atheists, this earth, has been in existence for millions, and millions of years now, starting w/of course, the Big Bang.

That there's all types of gargantuan stars, suns, meteors, planets etc, all around the universe swirling around and that could ultimately, at one point smash in to us.

Remember, that's what they claimed happened to make the dinosaurs go extinct and caused the Ice Age. A giant meteor that all but destroyed all life on earth...in an instant.

So that was millions of years ago, aren't we due for another one right about now?

What's stopping us from being destroyed by a super meteor at any point? And how do you feel w/the knowledge that this can happen at any instant?

I'd like to hear from our resident atheists on this.

What are your thoughts?

I am an atheist, or as I like to call myself, a Realist. (Why should I define myself by something I DON'T believe in? A-theist = No god) And yes, there is lots of evidence that the Earth is millions of years old, and the Big Bang has been deduced from various observable facts. And yes, the universe seems to be a chaotic, dangerous place -- as we're finding out right now with Covid-19. And unfortunately, the only thing that's stopping us from being destroyed by a "super meteor" is luck (or God, if you want to go that route).

Part of the reason that I hate religion is that it gives people false hope. Even if their lives in this world are terrible, they're promised a better one in the "next world." There isn't any next world. This is it. This is all we get. And you know what? For all its sorrows, this world is pretty great. A beautiful sunset, an inspiring piece of music, a delicious meal, or the love of someone -- you really should appreciate them while you have them. Because that's all you get. But it's enough.

Faith isn’t about the destination. It’s about the journey. And understanding how things are connected and work for good increases one’s enjoyment of the journey.

If you want to put your "faith" in a nonexistent being, go right ahead. My only regret is that after we're all dead, I'll never get to say, "I told you so!" (Oh, wait -- I just did!)

The definition of faith is complete trust in something or someone. I don’t put complete trust in something or someone without good reason, Bruce.

 

[ding]

That we're able to exist even now, at this instant that I type this.

Based on the belief of atheists, this earth, has been in existence for millions, and millions of years now, starting w/of course, the Big Bang.

That there's all types of gargantuan stars, suns, meteors, planets etc, all around the universe swirling around and that could ultimately, at one point smash in to us.

Remember, that's what they claimed happened to make the dinosaurs go extinct and caused the Ice Age. A giant meteor that all but destroyed all life on earth...in an instant.

So that was millions of years ago, aren't we due for another one right about now?

What's stopping us from being destroyed by a super meteor at any point? And how do you feel w/the knowledge that this can happen at any instant?

I'd like to hear from our resident atheists on this.

What are your thoughts?

It was an inevitability that we exist. No luck about it.

No, it wasn't inevitable. It was chance. If the dinosaurs hadn't been wiped out by a meteor 65 million years ago, we wouldn't exist. But we DO exist. And that's a good thing, right?

No. It is inevitable that intelligence will arise. Since the very beginning energy has complexified and has not ceased. In fact, SETI searches for intelligent life for this very reason. They literally expect to find it because the nature of the universe is to create beings that know and create.

The evidence shows that for more than 3 BILLION years, life on Earth was single-celled. If it's inevitable that intelligence will arise, it sure took its sweet time about it. And your evidence for "the nature of the universe is to create beings that know and create" is what?

The physical, biological and moral laws of nature.

It should be obvious that if the material world were not created by spirit that everything that has unfolded in the evolution of space and time would have no intentional purpose. That it is just matter and energy doing what matter and energy do. Conversely, if the material world were created by spirit it should be obvious that the creation of the material world was intentional. After all in my perception of God, God is no thing and the closest thing I can relate to is a mind with no body. Using our own experiences as creators as a proxy, we know that when we create things we create them for a reason and that reason is to serve some purpose. So it would be no great leap of logic to believe that something like a mind with no body would do the same. We also know from our experiences that intelligence tends to create intelligence. We are obsessed with making smart things. So what better thing for a mind with no body to do than create a universe where beings with bodies can create smart things too.

We have good reason to believe that we find ourselves in a universe permeated with life, in which life arises inevitably, given enough time, wherever the conditions exist that make it possible. Yet were any one of a number of the physical properties of our universe otherwise - some of them basic, others seemingly trivial, almost accidental - that life, which seems now to be so prevalent, would become impossible, here or anywhere. It takes no great imagination to conceive of other possible universes, each stable and workable in itself, yet lifeless. How is it that, with so many other apparent options, we are in a universe that possesses just that peculiar nexus of properties that breeds beings that know and create.

The biological laws are such that life is programmed to survive and multiply which is a requisite for intelligence to arise. If the purpose of the universe was to create intelligence then a preference in nature for it had to exist. The Laws of Nature are such that the potential for intelligence to existed the moment space and time were created. One can argue that given the laws of nature and the size of the universe that intelligence arising was inevitable. One can also argue that creating intelligence from nothing defies the Second Law of Entropy. That creating intelligence from nothing increases order within the universe. It actually doesn't because usable energy was lost along the way as a cost of creating order from disorder. But it is nature overriding it's tendency for ever increasing disorder that interests me and raises my suspicions to look deeper and to take seriously the proposition that a mind without a body created the material world so that minds with bodies could create too.

If we examine the physical laws we discover that we live in a logical universe governed by rules, laws and information. Rules laws and information are a signs of intelligence. Intentionality and purpose are signs of intelligence. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. The consequence of a logical universe is that every cause has an effect. Which means that everything happens for a reason and serves a purpose. The very nature of our physical laws point to reason and purpose.

All we have done so far is to make a logical argument for spirit creating the material world. Certainly not an argument built of fairy tales that's for sure. So going back to the two possibilities; spirit creating the material world versus everything proceeding from the material, the key distinction is no thing versus thing. So if we assume that everything I have described was just an accidental coincidence of the properties of matter, the logical conclusion is that matter and energy are just doing what matter and energy do which makes sense. The problem is that for matter and energy to do what matter and energy do, there has to be rules in place for matter and energy to obey. The formation of space and time followed rules. Specifically the law of conservation and quantum mechanics. These laws existed before space and time and defined the potential of everything which was possible. These laws are no thing. So we literally have an example of no thing existing before the material world. The creation of space and time from nothing is literally correct. Space and time were created from no thing. Spirit is no thing. No thing created space and time.

If the universe were created through natural process and we are an accidental happenstance of matter and energy doing what matter and energy do, then there should be no expectation for absolute morals. Morals can be anything we want them to be. The problem is that nature does have a preference for an outcome. Societies and people which behave with virtue experience order and harmony. Societies and people which behave without virtue experience disorder and chaos. So we can see from the outcomes that not all behaviors have equal outcomes. That some behaviors have better outcomes and some behaviors have worse outcomes. This is the moral law at work. If the universe was created by spirit for the express purpose of creating beings that know and create we would expect that we would receive feedback on how we behave. The problem is that violating moral laws are not like violating physical laws. When we violate a physical law the consequences are immediate. If you try to defy gravity by jumping off a roof you will fall. Whereas the consequences for violating a moral law are more probabilistic in nature; many times we get away with it.

Morals are effectively standards. For any given thing there exists a standard which is the highest possible standard. This standard exists independent of anything else. It is in effect a universal standard. It exists for a reason. When we deviate from this standard and normalize our deviance from the standard, eventually the reason the standard exists will be discovered. The reason this happens is because error cannot stand. Eventually error will fail and the truth will be discovered. Thus proving that morals cannot be anything we want them to be but are indeed based upon some universal code of common decency that is independent of man.

So the question that naturally begs to be asked is if there is a universal code of common decency that is independent of man how come we all don't behave the same way when it comes to right and wrong? The reason man doesn't behave the same way is because of subjectivity. The difference between being objective and being subjective is bias. Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. To eliminate a preference for an outcome one must have no thought of the consequences to one's self. If one does not practice this they will see subjective truth instead of objective truth. Subjective truth leads to moral relativism. Where consequences to self and preferences for an outcome leads to rationalizations of right and wrong.

Man does know right from wrong and when he violates it rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he did not violate it. You can see this behavior in almost all quarrels and disagreements. At the heart of every quarrel and disagreement is a belief in a universal right and wrong. So even though each side believes right to be different each side expects the other to believe their side should be universally known and accepted. It is this behavior which tells us there is an expectation for an absolute truth.

If there were never a universal truth that existed man would never have an expectation of fairness to begin with because fairness would have no meaning. The fact that each of us has an expectation of fairness and that we expect everyone else to follow ought to raise our suspicion on the origin of that expectation.

 

[Likkmee]

That we're able to exist even now, at this instant that I type this.

Based on the belief of atheists, this earth, has been in existence for millions, and millions of years now, starting w/of course, the Big Bang.

That there's all types of gargantuan stars, suns, meteors, planets etc, all around the universe swirling around and that could ultimately, at one point smash in to us.

Remember, that's what they claimed happened to make the dinosaurs go extinct and caused the Ice Age. A giant meteor that all but destroyed all life on earth...in an instant.

So that was millions of years ago, aren't we due for another one right about now?

What's stopping us from being destroyed by a super meteor at any point? And how do you feel w/the knowledge that this can happen at any instant?

I'd like to hear from our resident atheists on this.

What are your thoughts?

I am an atheist, or as I like to call myself, a Realist. (Why should I define myself by something I DON'T believe in? A-theist = No god) And yes, there is lots of evidence that the Earth is millions of years old, and the Big Bang has been deduced from various observable facts. And yes, the universe seems to be a chaotic, dangerous place -- as we're finding out right now with Covid-19. And unfortunately, the only thing that's stopping us from being destroyed by a "super meteor" is luck (or God, if you want to go that route).

Part of the reason that I hate religion is that it gives people false hope. Even if their lives in this world are terrible, they're promised a better one in the "next world." There isn't any next world. This is it. This is all we get. And you know what? For all its sorrows, this world is pretty great. A beautiful sunset, an inspiring piece of music, a delicious meal, or the love of someone -- you really should appreciate them while you have them. Because that's all you get. But it's enough.

WATCHOUTBRUCE>>>>>>>>>>QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ>ISWATCHINGYOU24/7>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Who is watching me? Q? The guy from Star Trek: The Next Generation?

QQQQQQQQQ>>>>>>>>>>>>ISWATCHINGYOU>>>>>>>>>>THEONEFROMABOVE..................

Most don't believe a Being above can be watching us. Just Goofle and Farcebook scare them to death. A being that can create everything we currently know ? Not so much.That's why the majority of these idiots are right. " It's all THEY got.

 

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of course it follows that everything that happens is the result of Its actions.

False

 

[ding]

Extinction is the only other option. I'm an optimist so I say it is inevitable.

You have been watching too many sci-fi movies.

It's only fiction until it is not. How many things we have today first appeared in sci-fi?

You mean like warp drive or teleporters