How Lucky Are Humans, and the World, for that Matter?

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I’m not ignoring the “scientific evidence” you’re posting. I’m challenging you to identify how any of it supports your claims to partisan gods.

The majority of your “scientific evidence” is boilerplate from any of the fundamentalist Christian ministries. Creationists like to use to "support" their claims. Aren't selective quoting and argumentum ad verecundiam fun?

The existence of various parameters in nature being in such a state to produce life is well known among the physics community, but surely you realize (although refuse to accept), that there is a world of difference between natural forces and "intelligent design", and that the latter does not logically follow from the former?

The intelligent design / creationist argument simply states that “if things were different, things would be different”. Well, yeah. If today was Tuesday, it wouldn’t be Monday.

Even if we acknowledge that parameters are godly “fine-tuned”, why should anyone accept that it is your gods are the fine tuners? Your gods are only three assertions of the gods so you might want to present evidence for your gods before insisting that your gods are the only fine tuning gods.

The universe could fine-tune itself. Self-organizing critical systems (Ecosystem as self-organizing critical systems) are capable of fine-tuning all by themselves, following only a simple set of physical laws -- thus making it likely that the parameters are "fine-tuned" the way we see them by purely natural mechanisms.
Their is no Gods, just one.


The next fine tuning point #s are from our article here:


Note the following point #'s 1-4 are points 3 - 6 in my list of fine tuning of the earth:

[Note: the SETI search for earthlike planets only considers a couple of the fine tuned properties for a planet to have a surface environment conducive to life - none of these planets would actually allow life as we know it to survive]

"1. Earth’s location in the Milky Way galaxy and the solar system, as well as the planet’s orbit, tilt, rotational speed, and moon

2. A magnetic field and atmosphere that serve as a dual shield

3. An abundance of water

4. Natural cycles that replenish and cleanse the biosphere"

So, #1 is #3 in my list:

3A - Earth's location in Milky Way galaxy:


"
Location of the earth and the solar system in the Milky Way galaxy

Could the earth be located in a better position to host life?

When you write down your address, what do you include? You might put in your country, city, and street. By way of comparison, let’s call the Milky Way galaxy earth’s “country,” the solar system—that is, the sun and its planets—earth’s “city,” and earth’s orbit within the solar system earth’s “street.” Thanks to advances in astronomy and physics, scientists have gained deep insights into the merits of our special spot in the universe.

To begin with, our “city,” or solar system, is located in the ideal region of the Milky Way galaxy—not too close to the center and not too far from it. This “habitable zone,” as scientists call it, contains just the right concentrations of the chemical elements needed to support life. Farther out, those elements are too scarce; farther in, the neighborhood is too dangerous because of the greater abundance of potentially lethal radiation and other factors. “We live in prime real estate,” says Scientific American magazine.1"

Reference 1 -


1. Scientific American, Special Issue 2008 entitled “Majestic Universe,” p. 11.
It’s entirely predictable that the JW’s would use the falsely labeled “fine tuning” argument to prove their gods but the chaos and violence of the universe doesn’t support a “fine tuning” claim and nothing about the universe supports any notions of gods.
Chaos?

I'm not sure what you are referring to - perhaps you could clarify.

One example of fine-tuned violence is Supernovas. Without supernovas the only elements that would have come into existence would have been Lithium and Hydrogen to Helium (which is inert), You cannot have life as we know it with just those elements present in the universe.

Further, no stars would have even existed in our universe without the fine tuned expansion rate of our universe (involving gravity, dark energy, and the cause of the labelled "big bang.").

The fine tuned ratios of the 4 force of physics also were required. (electromagnetic, gravity, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force).

The Bible simplifies this in Job 38:33 which refers to the laws governing our universe. Far from chaos, the universe obeys laws and also has fine tuned properties. I will continue my list later - offline for awhile.

You all; shelter in ;place! You can't catch viruses ln the internet!
Supernova are good examples of chaos as they obliterate nearby (in galactic terms), objects. Galaxies collide and black holes swallow regions of space, comets bombard planets and cosmic radiation can destroy biological life.

So I’m not seeing the “fine tuning” you claim your gods have performed.

Maybe if you first offered some evidence for your gods, you could then offer some evidence they “fine tuned” something.

Their is no Gods, just one


Curses for Disobedience
15 However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you:

16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.
17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.
18 The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.
19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out.
20 The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him.[a] 21 The Lord will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish. 23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron. 24 The Lord will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed.

25 The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth. 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds and the wild animals, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 The Lord will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind person in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.

30 You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and rape her. You will build a house, but you will not live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit. 31 Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will eat none of it. Your donkey will be forcibly taken from you and will not be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will rescue them. 32 Your sons and daughters will be given to another nation, and you will wear out your eyes watching for them day after day, powerless to lift a hand. 33 A people that you do not know will eat what your land and labor produce, and you will have nothing but cruel oppression all your days. 34 The sights you see will drive you mad. 35 The Lord will afflict your knees and legs with painful boils that cannot be cured, spreading from the soles of your feet to the top of your head.

36 The Lord will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your ancestors. There you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone. 37 You will become a thing of horror, a byword and an object of ridicule among all the peoples where the Lord will drive you.

38 You will sow much seed in the field but you will harvest little, because locusts will devour it. 39 You will plant vineyards and cultivate them but you will not drink the wine or gather the grapes, because worms will eat them. 40 You will have olive trees throughout your country but you will not use the oil, because the olives will drop off. 41 You will have sons and daughters but you will not keep them, because they will go into captivity. 42 Swarms of locusts will take over all your trees and the crops of your land.

43 The foreigners who reside among you will rise above you higher and higher, but you will sink lower and lower. 44 They will lend to you, but you will not lend to them. They will be the head, but you will be the tail.

45 All these curses will come on you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the Lord your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you. 46 They will be a sign and a wonder to you and your descendants forever. 47 Because you did not serve the Lord your God joyfully and gladly in the time of prosperity, 48 therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the Lord sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you.

49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young. 51 They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or olive oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. 52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the Lord your God is giving you.

53 Because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you. 54 Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, 55 and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. 56 The most gentle and sensitive woman among you—so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot—will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter 57 the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For in her dire need she intends to eat them secretly because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of your cities.

58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the Lord your God— 59 the Lord will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring on you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62 You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the Lord your God. 63 Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.
Other religions disagree about the number and efficacy of the gods.

Obviously, they're right and you're wrong.
You mean like Judaism?
 

Newtonian

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That we're able to exist even now, at this instant that I type this.

Based on the belief of atheists, this earth, has been in existence for millions, and millions of years now, starting w/of course, the Big Bang.

That there's all types of gargantuan stars, suns, meteors, planets etc, all around the universe swirling around and that could ultimately, at one point smash in to us.

Remember, that's what they claimed happened to make the dinosaurs go extinct and caused the Ice Age. A giant meteor that all but destroyed all life on earth...in an instant.

So that was millions of years ago, aren't we due for another one right about now?

What's stopping us from being destroyed by a super meteor at any point? And how do you feel w/the knowledge that this can happen at any instant?

I'd like to hear from our resident atheists on this.

What are your thoughts?
It was an inevitability that we exist. No luck about it.
No, it wasn't inevitable. It was chance. If the dinosaurs hadn't been wiped out by a meteor 65 million years ago, we wouldn't exist. But we DO exist. And that's a good thing, right?
No. It is inevitable that intelligence will arise. Since the very beginning energy has complexified and has not ceased. In fact, SETI searches for intelligent life for this very reason. They literally expect to find it because the nature of the universe is to create beings that know and create.
Informational molecules do not arise by chance - only statistical molecules arise by chance - and even they are due to the fine tuning of our universe.
I don’t understand what you are trying to get at. What are you trying to say?
See the article I linked to.

Bottom line - the fine tuning of our universe, star, magnetic field, ozone layer, and earth as a whole is due to God's love - not luck.

Would you like me to list in detail some of these examples of fine tuning?

Or were you referring to my reference to informational vs. statistical molecules?

That would be a chemistry tangent - for starters DNA would be useless for life if it was not precisely coded in a chemical language (cp. a book). Not to mention the need for a messenger molecule (RNA) to read this information and use it in one of the many processes required for life.

And that is just one of the many informational molecules required for life.

It boils down to the difference between life and death. One cause for death is the second law of thermodynamics and specifically the principle of entropy which causes informational molecules to decay to their most stable state - which is non-living matter. It doesn't go the other way - from death to life - without informational molecules in living things. See the many aspects of the origin of life by chemistry directed by information/intelligence vs. statistical molecules.

A simple example - in origin of life experiments many amino acids are produced by chance + an environment produced by intelligent creators (humans). But the primary product is formic acid - this fact is usually omitted by chemical evolutionists. And besides that many amino acids useless for life are produced - another fact covered over by chemical evolutionists (and popular media programs).

And, of course, chirality - but that is just left or right hand polarization of molecules.

Also usually ignored is the precise 3-d shape of molecules required for life - such as enzymes and receptor molecules.

Would you like me to post more detail on this?
If you presuppose the existence of a Divine Being in control of the universe, of course it follows that everything that happens is the result of Its actions. But if you make no such supposition, then everything that has happened is the result of chance, and/or is simply the way of the universe. The proof is that THIS is the universe which exists. That explanation makes just as much sense as yours, and it doesn't require the intervention of a supernatural being.
That’s really a great point. The argument from the Christian religious perspective is that life can’t come from non-life and that inevitably rolls into the question of abiogenesis. We know with absolute certainty
I’m not ignoring the “scientific evidence” you’re posting. I’m challenging you to identify how any of it supports your claims to partisan gods.

The majority of your “scientific evidence” is boilerplate from any of the fundamentalist Christian ministries. Creationists like to use to "support" their claims. Aren't selective quoting and argumentum ad verecundiam fun?

The existence of various parameters in nature being in such a state to produce life is well known among the physics community, but surely you realize (although refuse to accept), that there is a world of difference between natural forces and "intelligent design", and that the latter does not logically follow from the former?

The intelligent design / creationist argument simply states that “if things were different, things would be different”. Well, yeah. If today was Tuesday, it wouldn’t be Monday.

Even if we acknowledge that parameters are godly “fine-tuned”, why should anyone accept that it is your gods are the fine tuners? Your gods are only three assertions of the gods so you might want to present evidence for your gods before insisting that your gods are the only fine tuning gods.

The universe could fine-tune itself. Self-organizing critical systems (Ecosystem as self-organizing critical systems) are capable of fine-tuning all by themselves, following only a simple set of physical laws -- thus making it likely that the parameters are "fine-tuned" the way we see them by purely natural mechanisms.
Yes, you are ignoring the scientific evidence and you also have not explained what you believe caused all this 'fine tuning.'

On your off topic tangent - we only worship one God: Jehovah. That name means "He causes to be." So, how do you explain how all of these examples of fine tuning came to be?
I'm not ignoring scientific evidence, I'm requiring you to substantiate your claims that anything you supplied from the JW website requires supernatural intervention from a unique set of gods as opposed to natural mechanisms. When you write "we only worship one god", you are only one subset of one religion "worshipping" one version of the gods. I see your gods as no more demonstrated than the earlier gods your gods derived from.

I don't explain your claims to "fine tuning" of anything because your insistence that "fine tuning" is the product of your gods is absent any measurable standard which applies to your gods, also. Nothing about the workings of the universe or the laws of nature require your gods or anyone else's gods.
Fine tuning is not dependent on the cause. You are simply using an excuse to ignore the scientific evidence of fine tuning and you also fail to post any cause you think more likely.

For me, I believe in cause and effect (as in the primary definition of the Divine Name Jehovah) and the law of conservation of matter and energy.

What was the cause of fine tuning, and where did the energy come from that caused the energy first and then later the matter in our universe?

Or do you have the blind faith of some that claim the origin of our universe had no cause and was produced from nothing?

I will be offline until tomorrow probably - so you will once again have time to examine the evidence I have posted.

Or, you can continue to make excuses to ignore the scientific evidence.
I understand why you insist on promoting the “fine tuning” meme but we still have nothing to support your claim that anything is “fine tuned” and still nothing that connects your gods to the existence of any fine tuned universe.

Once again, to support your “fine tuned” position for supernatural intervention you need to:

1) provide credible evidence for one or more of your gawds, and then,

2) provide credible evidence that one or more of your gawds had direct involvement with the implementation of the “fine tuning that explains the diversity of biological life on the planet.

When will you provide such evidence?

Unfortunately for the religions, there is an inherent hopelessness of ID/creationism as a means to explain anything. Firstly, it has been demonstrated that there is nothing in ID/ creationism that can be used as a reliable or even useful way to detect ‘super-magical design’. Secondly, nothing in ID/creationism can exclude Darwinian evolution ie:, natural selection as a mechanism even when designer gods are presumed as the cause of existence. Thirdly ID/creationism has failed as a mechanism to make predictions based upon the extant theory (as science does) leaving ID/creationism to be useful only as a trivial, non-scientific claim.
I will start a separate thread on that. On this thread I will stick with topic - the evidence that we are here due to fine tuned properties which are evidence of love not luck. Meanwhile you continue to ignore the scientific evidence I have posted, and you have not posted any cause for these laws and properties.

On the last point, remember that earth's rotation rate was fine tuned so that life as we know it on the surface of the earth is not only possible (evidence of ID) but also enjoyable which is evidence of love.

Continuing my list which you invited me to post (and you said you would post your points) here is where I left off:

3D(1)(e) Skipping to 2,000 hour rotation speed (about 80 days), night would be 1,000 hours long. In continental climates with a mean of 50 degrees, the low would be about -950 degrees and the high would be about 1,050 degrees. But that would not actually happen because of earth's oceans which would greatly reduce the high to about 400 degrees - now the difference between continental and maritime climates would be a minor factor.

in case you all think this is not possible - try studying the rotation speeds of other planets in our solar system - I will detail this later.

It is this example that would be absolutely catastrophic to life on earth's surface - though deep in ocean depths life could still survive.

In 80 day rotation speed you could actually hear the sunrise and sunset! I will detail this in my next post:
 
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Bruce Daniels

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That we're able to exist even now, at this instant that I type this.

Based on the belief of atheists, this earth, has been in existence for millions, and millions of years now, starting w/of course, the Big Bang.

That there's all types of gargantuan stars, suns, meteors, planets etc, all around the universe swirling around and that could ultimately, at one point smash in to us.

Remember, that's what they claimed happened to make the dinosaurs go extinct and caused the Ice Age. A giant meteor that all but destroyed all life on earth...in an instant.

So that was millions of years ago, aren't we due for another one right about now?

What's stopping us from being destroyed by a super meteor at any point? And how do you feel w/the knowledge that this can happen at any instant?

I'd like to hear from our resident atheists on this.

What are your thoughts?
I am an atheist, or as I like to call myself, a Realist. (Why should I define myself by something I DON'T believe in? A-theist = No god) And yes, there is lots of evidence that the Earth is millions of years old, and the Big Bang has been deduced from various observable facts. And yes, the universe seems to be a chaotic, dangerous place -- as we're finding out right now with Covid-19. And unfortunately, the only thing that's stopping us from being destroyed by a "super meteor" is luck (or God, if you want to go that route).

Part of the reason that I hate religion is that it gives people false hope. Even if their lives in this world are terrible, they're promised a better one in the "next world." There isn't any next world. This is it. This is all we get. And you know what? For all its sorrows, this world is pretty great. A beautiful sunset, an inspiring piece of music, a delicious meal, or the love of someone -- you really should appreciate them while you have them. Because that's all you get. But it's enough.
Faith isn’t about the destination. It’s about the journey. And understanding how things are connected and work for good increases one’s enjoyment of the journey.
If you want to put your "faith" in a nonexistent being, go right ahead. My only regret is that after we're all dead, I'll never get to say, "I told you so!" (Oh, wait -- I just did!)
The definition of faith is complete trust in something or someone. I don’t put complete trust in something or someone without good reason, Bruce.
Oh, apparently you put your complete trust in some amorphous promise of... something. What was that complete trust? Or was it a promise? I'm not sure. And what was the "good reason" that you did that for? I'm not sure.
 

Newtonian

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As I posted, if earth's rotation rate had been much slower (3D(1)(e) - 80 day [nearly 2,000 hour] rotation rate) you could hear sunrise and sunset because of the abundance of water on our planet and the fact that the temperature would go from way below the freezing point of water (though not actually -950 degrees F - more likely c. -300 F) to way above the boiling point of water (though not actually 1,050 F - more likely about 400 degrees F) during the violent sunrise.

This is because the thousands of feet of snow on land - less over frozen oceans with ice hundreds of feet thick on its surface - would be melted. Of course, this would only be minor the first few days of all day sunlight - the sun angle would still be low - but after a few more days, the temp would go above freezing and continue to rise towards the boiling point of water.

At the boundary of hot and cold during sunrise, as posted, thousands of feet of cold water would come crashing into the much lower (perhaps 1,000 feet lower) hot sun-baked oceans in a violent c. 1,000 foot wave.

But this is just my ballpark estimates. What do you all think would result if earth had 40 days of night and 40 days of daylight with a rotation rate of 80 days or 2,000 hours? I will await your posts on what would happen if earth's rotation rate was much slower than our fine tuned rate of 24 hours?

Meanwhile, I will document the fact that the planets in our solar system have widely variant rotation rates. For starters, enjoy these links:



 

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That we're able to exist even now, at this instant that I type this.

Based on the belief of atheists, this earth, has been in existence for millions, and millions of years now, starting w/of course, the Big Bang.

That there's all types of gargantuan stars, suns, meteors, planets etc, all around the universe swirling around and that could ultimately, at one point smash in to us.

Remember, that's what they claimed happened to make the dinosaurs go extinct and caused the Ice Age. A giant meteor that all but destroyed all life on earth...in an instant.

So that was millions of years ago, aren't we due for another one right about now?

What's stopping us from being destroyed by a super meteor at any point? And how do you feel w/the knowledge that this can happen at any instant?

I'd like to hear from our resident atheists on this.

What are your thoughts?
I am an atheist, or as I like to call myself, a Realist. (Why should I define myself by something I DON'T believe in? A-theist = No god) And yes, there is lots of evidence that the Earth is millions of years old, and the Big Bang has been deduced from various observable facts. And yes, the universe seems to be a chaotic, dangerous place -- as we're finding out right now with Covid-19. And unfortunately, the only thing that's stopping us from being destroyed by a "super meteor" is luck (or God, if you want to go that route).

Part of the reason that I hate religion is that it gives people false hope. Even if their lives in this world are terrible, they're promised a better one in the "next world." There isn't any next world. This is it. This is all we get. And you know what? For all its sorrows, this world is pretty great. A beautiful sunset, an inspiring piece of music, a delicious meal, or the love of someone -- you really should appreciate them while you have them. Because that's all you get. But it's enough.
Faith isn’t about the destination. It’s about the journey. And understanding how things are connected and work for good increases one’s enjoyment of the journey.
If you want to put your "faith" in a nonexistent being, go right ahead. My only regret is that after we're all dead, I'll never get to say, "I told you so!" (Oh, wait -- I just did!)
The definition of faith is complete trust in something or someone. I don’t put complete trust in something or someone without good reason, Bruce.
Oh, apparently you put your complete trust in some amorphous promise of... something. What was that complete trust? Or was it a promise? I'm not sure. And what was the "good reason" that you did that for? I'm not sure.
Please note that I posted the Biblical definition of faith at Hebrews 11:1 which literally from the Greek and Latin is based on "substantial" "convincing evidence." That would be the reason for the trust in promises. The latter would be the proverbial 'putting the cart before the horse.' The evidence is required first - which is why I have been posting evidence of fine tuning of our earth as evidence of love and evidence against luck or chance.

[Note: there is also evidence of fine tuning of our universe - haven't go to that yet!]
 

Newtonian

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On the latter link:


The influence of clouds are oversimplified to result in a oooler planet - but the article goes on to show it it is much more complex than that since Venus' clouds also produce a greenhouse effect - which makes it hotter rather than cooler from what would be expected on the simple basis of distance from the sun (our main sequence star).

As I posted, the boiling oceans on the hot side of a slower rotation rate of an earth-like planet would cause much more than simply clouds. From the link concerning "Hadley cells" (planetary wind cylces - see Ecclesiates 1:6):

"If, on the other hand, the planet is a slow rotator, then the Hadley cells can expand to encompass the entire world. This is because the atmospheric circulation is enhanced due to the difference in temperature between the day and night side of the planet. The days and nights are very long, so that the half of the planet that is bathed in light from the star has plenty of time to soak up the Sun. In contrast, the night side of the planet is much cooler, as it has been shaded from the star for some time.

Caption for the following picture:
"A Hadley cell is created when warm air rises at the equator and moves to the poles. The air then cools, sinks, and heads back towards the equator. Credit: Lyndon State College Atmospheric Sciences"


A Hadley cell is created when warm air rises at the equator and moves to the poles. The air then cools, sinks, and heads back towards the equator. Credit: Lyndon State College Atmospheric Sciences
 

Newtonian

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I should note that Ecclesiastes 1:6 refers to earth's wind cycles as going north to south and vice versa:

"The wind goes south and circles around to the north;
Round and round it continuously circles; the wind keeps making its rounds."

One might ask why East and West are not mentioned since clearly Solomon (the writer but not the author) was aware surface winds also blow east and west.

The reason is that our Creator (the author) was aware that while earth's surface winds cycle north east south west (and vice versa) earth's much larger vertical wind cycles (Hadley, mid latitude and polar cells) go up North down South (and vice versa).

Our Creator was/is aware that ALL of earth's wind cycles go north and south!
 
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Bruce Daniels

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That we're able to exist even now, at this instant that I type this.

Based on the belief of atheists, this earth, has been in existence for millions, and millions of years now, starting w/of course, the Big Bang.

That there's all types of gargantuan stars, suns, meteors, planets etc, all around the universe swirling around and that could ultimately, at one point smash in to us.

Remember, that's what they claimed happened to make the dinosaurs go extinct and caused the Ice Age. A giant meteor that all but destroyed all life on earth...in an instant.

So that was millions of years ago, aren't we due for another one right about now?

What's stopping us from being destroyed by a super meteor at any point? And how do you feel w/the knowledge that this can happen at any instant?

I'd like to hear from our resident atheists on this.

What are your thoughts?
I am an atheist, or as I like to call myself, a Realist. (Why should I define myself by something I DON'T believe in? A-theist = No god) And yes, there is lots of evidence that the Earth is millions of years old, and the Big Bang has been deduced from various observable facts. And yes, the universe seems to be a chaotic, dangerous place -- as we're finding out right now with Covid-19. And unfortunately, the only thing that's stopping us from being destroyed by a "super meteor" is luck (or God, if you want to go that route).

Part of the reason that I hate religion is that it gives people false hope. Even if their lives in this world are terrible, they're promised a better one in the "next world." There isn't any next world. This is it. This is all we get. And you know what? For all its sorrows, this world is pretty great. A beautiful sunset, an inspiring piece of music, a delicious meal, or the love of someone -- you really should appreciate them while you have them. Because that's all you get. But it's enough.
Faith isn’t about the destination. It’s about the journey. And understanding how things are connected and work for good increases one’s enjoyment of the journey.
If you want to put your "faith" in a nonexistent being, go right ahead. My only regret is that after we're all dead, I'll never get to say, "I told you so!" (Oh, wait -- I just did!)
The definition of faith is complete trust in something or someone. I don’t put complete trust in something or someone without good reason, Bruce.
Oh, apparently you put your complete trust in some amorphous promise of... something. What was that complete trust? Or was it a promise? I'm not sure. And what was the "good reason" that you did that for? I'm not sure.
Please note that I posted the Biblical definition of faith at Hebrews 11:1 which literally from the Greek and Latin is based on "substantial" "convincing evidence." That would be the reason for the trust in promises. The latter would be the proverbial 'putting the cart before the horse.' The evidence is required first - which is why I have been posting evidence of fine tuning of our earth as evidence of love and evidence against luck or chance.

[Note: there is also evidence of fine tuning of our universe - haven't go to that yet!]
There isn't ANY convincing evidence of any scientific facts in the Bible. But believe whatever you want. That won't change reality, though.
 

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That we're able to exist even now, at this instant that I type this.

Based on the belief of atheists, this earth, has been in existence for millions, and millions of years now, starting w/of course, the Big Bang.

That there's all types of gargantuan stars, suns, meteors, planets etc, all around the universe swirling around and that could ultimately, at one point smash in to us.

Remember, that's what they claimed happened to make the dinosaurs go extinct and caused the Ice Age. A giant meteor that all but destroyed all life on earth...in an instant.

So that was millions of years ago, aren't we due for another one right about now?

What's stopping us from being destroyed by a super meteor at any point? And how do you feel w/the knowledge that this can happen at any instant?

I'd like to hear from our resident atheists on this.

What are your thoughts?
It was an inevitability that we exist. No luck about it.
No, it wasn't inevitable. It was chance. If the dinosaurs hadn't been wiped out by a meteor 65 million years ago, we wouldn't exist. But we DO exist. And that's a good thing, right?
No. It is inevitable that intelligence will arise. Since the very beginning energy has complexified and has not ceased. In fact, SETI searches for intelligent life for this very reason. They literally expect to find it because the nature of the universe is to create beings that know and create.
Informational molecules do not arise by chance - only statistical molecules arise by chance - and even they are due to the fine tuning of our universe.
I don’t understand what you are trying to get at. What are you trying to say?
See the article I linked to.

Bottom line - the fine tuning of our universe, star, magnetic field, ozone layer, and earth as a whole is due to God's love - not luck.

Would you like me to list in detail some of these examples of fine tuning?

Or were you referring to my reference to informational vs. statistical molecules?

That would be a chemistry tangent - for starters DNA would be useless for life if it was not precisely coded in a chemical language (cp. a book). Not to mention the need for a messenger molecule (RNA) to read this information and use it in one of the many processes required for life.

And that is just one of the many informational molecules required for life.

It boils down to the difference between life and death. One cause for death is the second law of thermodynamics and specifically the principle of entropy which causes informational molecules to decay to their most stable state - which is non-living matter. It doesn't go the other way - from death to life - without informational molecules in living things. See the many aspects of the origin of life by chemistry directed by information/intelligence vs. statistical molecules.

A simple example - in origin of life experiments many amino acids are produced by chance + an environment produced by intelligent creators (humans). But the primary product is formic acid - this fact is usually omitted by chemical evolutionists. And besides that many amino acids useless for life are produced - another fact covered over by chemical evolutionists (and popular media programs).

And, of course, chirality - but that is just left or right hand polarization of molecules.

Also usually ignored is the precise 3-d shape of molecules required for life - such as enzymes and receptor molecules.

Would you like me to post more detail on this?
If you presuppose the existence of a Divine Being in control of the universe, of course it follows that everything that happens is the result of Its actions. But if you make no such supposition, then everything that has happened is the result of chance, and/or is simply the way of the universe. The proof is that THIS is the universe which exists. That explanation makes just as much sense as yours, and it doesn't require the intervention of a supernatural being.
That’s really a great point. The argument from the Christian religious perspective is that life can’t come from non-life and that inevitably rolls into the question of abiogenesis. We know with absolute certainty
I’m not ignoring the “scientific evidence” you’re posting. I’m challenging you to identify how any of it supports your claims to partisan gods.

The majority of your “scientific evidence” is boilerplate from any of the fundamentalist Christian ministries. Creationists like to use to "support" their claims. Aren't selective quoting and argumentum ad verecundiam fun?

The existence of various parameters in nature being in such a state to produce life is well known among the physics community, but surely you realize (although refuse to accept), that there is a world of difference between natural forces and "intelligent design", and that the latter does not logically follow from the former?

The intelligent design / creationist argument simply states that “if things were different, things would be different”. Well, yeah. If today was Tuesday, it wouldn’t be Monday.

Even if we acknowledge that parameters are godly “fine-tuned”, why should anyone accept that it is your gods are the fine tuners? Your gods are only three assertions of the gods so you might want to present evidence for your gods before insisting that your gods are the only fine tuning gods.

The universe could fine-tune itself. Self-organizing critical systems (Ecosystem as self-organizing critical systems) are capable of fine-tuning all by themselves, following only a simple set of physical laws -- thus making it likely that the parameters are "fine-tuned" the way we see them by purely natural mechanisms.
Yes, you are ignoring the scientific evidence and you also have not explained what you believe caused all this 'fine tuning.'

On your off topic tangent - we only worship one God: Jehovah. That name means "He causes to be." So, how do you explain how all of these examples of fine tuning came to be?
I'm not ignoring scientific evidence, I'm requiring you to substantiate your claims that anything you supplied from the JW website requires supernatural intervention from a unique set of gods as opposed to natural mechanisms. When you write "we only worship one god", you are only one subset of one religion "worshipping" one version of the gods. I see your gods as no more demonstrated than the earlier gods your gods derived from.

I don't explain your claims to "fine tuning" of anything because your insistence that "fine tuning" is the product of your gods is absent any measurable standard which applies to your gods, also. Nothing about the workings of the universe or the laws of nature require your gods or anyone else's gods.
Fine tuning is not dependent on the cause. You are simply using an excuse to ignore the scientific evidence of fine tuning and you also fail to post any cause you think more likely.

For me, I believe in cause and effect (as in the primary definition of the Divine Name Jehovah) and the law of conservation of matter and energy.

What was the cause of fine tuning, and where did the energy come from that caused the energy first and then later the matter in our universe?

Or do you have the blind faith of some that claim the origin of our universe had no cause and was produced from nothing?

I will be offline until tomorrow probably - so you will once again have time to examine the evidence I have posted.

Or, you can continue to make excuses to ignore the scientific evidence.
I understand why you insist on promoting the “fine tuning” meme but we still have nothing to support your claim that anything is “fine tuned” and still nothing that connects your gods to the existence of any fine tuned universe.

Once again, to support your “fine tuned” position for supernatural intervention you need to:

1) provide credible evidence for one or more of your gawds, and then,

2) provide credible evidence that one or more of your gawds had direct involvement with the implementation of the “fine tuning that explains the diversity of biological life on the planet.

When will you provide such evidence?

Unfortunately for the religions, there is an inherent hopelessness of ID/creationism as a means to explain anything. Firstly, it has been demonstrated that there is nothing in ID/ creationism that can be used as a reliable or even useful way to detect ‘super-magical design’. Secondly, nothing in ID/creationism can exclude Darwinian evolution ie:, natural selection as a mechanism even when designer gods are presumed as the cause of existence. Thirdly ID/creationism has failed as a mechanism to make predictions based upon the extant theory (as science does) leaving ID/creationism to be useful only as a trivial, non-scientific claim.
I will start a separate thread on that. On this thread I will stick with topic - the evidence that we are here due to fine tuned properties which are evidence of love not luck. Meanwhile you continue to ignore the scientific evidence I have posted, and you have not posted any cause for these laws and properties.

On the last point, remember that earth's rotation rate was fine tuned so that life as we know it on the surface of the earth is not only possible (evidence of ID) but also enjoyable which is evidence of love.

Continuing my list which you invited me to post (and you said you would post your points) here is where I left off:

3D(1)(e) Skipping to 2,000 hour rotation speed (about 80 days), night would be 1,000 hours long. In continental climates with a mean of 50 degrees, the low would be about -950 degrees and the high would be about 1,050 degrees. But that would not actually happen because of earth's oceans which would greatly reduce the high to about 400 degrees - now the difference between continental and maritime climates would be a minor factor.

in case you all think this is not possible - try studying the rotation speeds of other planets in our solar system - I will detail this later.

It is this example that would be absolutely catastrophic to life on earth's surface - though deep in ocean depths life could still survive.

In 80 day rotation speed you could actually hear the sunrise and sunset! I will detail this in my next post:
I’m afraid you insist on pursuing the notion of “if things were different, things would be different”. For example; if the chemical composition of water was different, it wouldn’t be water. See, I just proved that the gods made water and water was “fine tuned” for humans by the gods.

I think most people can see I’m being facetious but the above is the basic premise of the “fine tuning” argument meant to support the gods.

Without the laws of physics as we know them, life on earth as we know it would not have evolved in the span of a few billion years. The nuclear force was needed to bind neutrons and protons in the nuclei of atoms; electromagnetism was needed to bind molecules and atoms together; and gravity was needed to keep the resulting ingredients for life bound to the surface of the earth. Oddly, I find nothing in any of the Bibles describing any of the above.

As science has demonstrated, these forces have been in operation within seconds of the start of the big bang, (Planck Time), and the expansion of the universe.

I do find it interesting that your links reference discoveries of science and not of the Christian Church.

As to the planet being “fine tuned” for love, let’s more fully examine the rotation of the planet in your earlier comment, shall we? If we are to believe the “love gods” were responsible for the “fine tuning” of the planet, we might want to ask why gods established the laws of convection and rotation of planets when those two elements together create swirling whirlwinds we call twisters.

That seems like a rather careless “fine tuning” of the planet by the “love gods”. Care to explain?
 

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I should note that Ecclesiastes 1:6 refers to earth's wind cycles as going north to south and vice versa:

"The wind goes south and circles around to the north;
Round and round it continuously circles; the wind keeps making its rounds."

One might ask why East and West are not mentioned since clearly Solomon (the writer but not the author) was aware surface winds also blow east and west.

The reason is that our Creator (the author) was aware that while earth's surface winds cycle north east south west (and vice versa) earth's much larger vertical wind cycles (Hadley, mid latitude and polar cells) go up North down South (and vice versa).

Our Creator was/is aware that ALL of earth's wind cycles go north and south!
“Our Creator was/is aware that ALL of earth's wind cycles go north and south!”

The image in your earlier post shows otherwise. The trade winds near the equator move predominately east to west. Have the gods played a cruel joke on you?
 

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I should note that Ecclesiastes 1:6 refers to earth's wind cycles as going north to south and vice versa:

"The wind goes south and circles around to the north;
Round and round it continuously circles; the wind keeps making its rounds."

One might ask why East and West are not mentioned since clearly Solomon (the writer but not the author) was aware surface winds also blow east and west.

The reason is that our Creator (the author) was aware that while earth's surface winds cycle north east south west (and vice versa) earth's much larger vertical wind cycles (Hadley, mid latitude and polar cells) go up North down South (and vice versa).

Our Creator was/is aware that ALL of earth's wind cycles go north and south!
“Our Creator was/is aware that ALL of earth's wind cycles go north and south!”

The image in your earlier post shows otherwise. The trade winds near the equator move predominately east to west. Have the gods played a cruel joke on you?
There is no need of a God or gods in anything. Reality is what it is. If things had turned out differently, we would live in a different world (or maybe we wouldn't live at all). The proof that things worked out is that we're here now.
 

Hollie

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That we're able to exist even now, at this instant that I type this.

Based on the belief of atheists, this earth, has been in existence for millions, and millions of years now, starting w/of course, the Big Bang.

That there's all types of gargantuan stars, suns, meteors, planets etc, all around the universe swirling around and that could ultimately, at one point smash in to us.

Remember, that's what they claimed happened to make the dinosaurs go extinct and caused the Ice Age. A giant meteor that all but destroyed all life on earth...in an instant.

So that was millions of years ago, aren't we due for another one right about now?

What's stopping us from being destroyed by a super meteor at any point? And how do you feel w/the knowledge that this can happen at any instant?

I'd like to hear from our resident atheists on this.

What are your thoughts?
I am an atheist, or as I like to call myself, a Realist. (Why should I define myself by something I DON'T believe in? A-theist = No god) And yes, there is lots of evidence that the Earth is millions of years old, and the Big Bang has been deduced from various observable facts. And yes, the universe seems to be a chaotic, dangerous place -- as we're finding out right now with Covid-19. And unfortunately, the only thing that's stopping us from being destroyed by a "super meteor" is luck (or God, if you want to go that route).

Part of the reason that I hate religion is that it gives people false hope. Even if their lives in this world are terrible, they're promised a better one in the "next world." There isn't any next world. This is it. This is all we get. And you know what? For all its sorrows, this world is pretty great. A beautiful sunset, an inspiring piece of music, a delicious meal, or the love of someone -- you really should appreciate them while you have them. Because that's all you get. But it's enough.
Faith isn’t about the destination. It’s about the journey. And understanding how things are connected and work for good increases one’s enjoyment of the journey.
If you want to put your "faith" in a nonexistent being, go right ahead. My only regret is that after we're all dead, I'll never get to say, "I told you so!" (Oh, wait -- I just did!)
The definition of faith is complete trust in something or someone. I don’t put complete trust in something or someone without good reason, Bruce.
Oh, apparently you put your complete trust in some amorphous promise of... something. What was that complete trust? Or was it a promise? I'm not sure. And what was the "good reason" that you did that for? I'm not sure.
Please note that I posted the Biblical definition of faith at Hebrews 11:1 which literally from the Greek and Latin is based on "substantial" "convincing evidence." That would be the reason for the trust in promises. The latter would be the proverbial 'putting the cart before the horse.' The evidence is required first - which is why I have been posting evidence of fine tuning of our earth as evidence of love and evidence against luck or chance.

[Note: there is also evidence of fine tuning of our universe - haven't go to that yet!]
We seem to be on the horns of a dilemma, here. “Fine tuning” of the planet by the “love gods” seems to be rather hazardous to animal and human life.





The gods did it for “love”?
 

Hollie

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I should note that Ecclesiastes 1:6 refers to earth's wind cycles as going north to south and vice versa:

"The wind goes south and circles around to the north;
Round and round it continuously circles; the wind keeps making its rounds."

One might ask why East and West are not mentioned since clearly Solomon (the writer but not the author) was aware surface winds also blow east and west.

The reason is that our Creator (the author) was aware that while earth's surface winds cycle north east south west (and vice versa) earth's much larger vertical wind cycles (Hadley, mid latitude and polar cells) go up North down South (and vice versa).

Our Creator was/is aware that ALL of earth's wind cycles go north and south!
“Our Creator was/is aware that ALL of earth's wind cycles go north and south!”

The image in your earlier post shows otherwise. The trade winds near the equator move predominately east to west. Have the gods played a cruel joke on you?
There is no need of a God or gods in anything. Reality is what it is. If things had turned out differently, we would live in a different world (or maybe we wouldn't live at all). The proof that things worked out is that we're here now.
Yes, agreed.
 

Hollie

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That we're able to exist even now, at this instant that I type this.

Based on the belief of atheists, this earth, has been in existence for millions, and millions of years now, starting w/of course, the Big Bang.

That there's all types of gargantuan stars, suns, meteors, planets etc, all around the universe swirling around and that could ultimately, at one point smash in to us.

Remember, that's what they claimed happened to make the dinosaurs go extinct and caused the Ice Age. A giant meteor that all but destroyed all life on earth...in an instant.

So that was millions of years ago, aren't we due for another one right about now?

What's stopping us from being destroyed by a super meteor at any point? And how do you feel w/the knowledge that this can happen at any instant?

I'd like to hear from our resident atheists on this.

What are your thoughts?
I am an atheist, or as I like to call myself, a Realist. (Why should I define myself by something I DON'T believe in? A-theist = No god) And yes, there is lots of evidence that the Earth is millions of years old, and the Big Bang has been deduced from various observable facts. And yes, the universe seems to be a chaotic, dangerous place -- as we're finding out right now with Covid-19. And unfortunately, the only thing that's stopping us from being destroyed by a "super meteor" is luck (or God, if you want to go that route).

Part of the reason that I hate religion is that it gives people false hope. Even if their lives in this world are terrible, they're promised a better one in the "next world." There isn't any next world. This is it. This is all we get. And you know what? For all its sorrows, this world is pretty great. A beautiful sunset, an inspiring piece of music, a delicious meal, or the love of someone -- you really should appreciate them while you have them. Because that's all you get. But it's enough.
Faith isn’t about the destination. It’s about the journey. And understanding how things are connected and work for good increases one’s enjoyment of the journey.
If you want to put your "faith" in a nonexistent being, go right ahead. My only regret is that after we're all dead, I'll never get to say, "I told you so!" (Oh, wait -- I just did!)
The definition of faith is complete trust in something or someone. I don’t put complete trust in something or someone without good reason, Bruce.
Oh, apparently you put your complete trust in some amorphous promise of... something. What was that complete trust? Or was it a promise? I'm not sure. And what was the "good reason" that you did that for? I'm not sure.
Please note that I posted the Biblical definition of faith at Hebrews 11:1 which literally from the Greek and Latin is based on "substantial" "convincing evidence." That would be the reason for the trust in promises. The latter would be the proverbial 'putting the cart before the horse.' The evidence is required first - which is why I have been posting evidence of fine tuning of our earth as evidence of love and evidence against luck or chance.

[Note: there is also evidence of fine tuning of our universe - haven't go to that yet!]
Your definitions seem a bit, oh, how shall we say, contrived?

 

ding

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That we're able to exist even now, at this instant that I type this.

Based on the belief of atheists, this earth, has been in existence for millions, and millions of years now, starting w/of course, the Big Bang.

That there's all types of gargantuan stars, suns, meteors, planets etc, all around the universe swirling around and that could ultimately, at one point smash in to us.

Remember, that's what they claimed happened to make the dinosaurs go extinct and caused the Ice Age. A giant meteor that all but destroyed all life on earth...in an instant.

So that was millions of years ago, aren't we due for another one right about now?

What's stopping us from being destroyed by a super meteor at any point? And how do you feel w/the knowledge that this can happen at any instant?

I'd like to hear from our resident atheists on this.

What are your thoughts?
I am an atheist, or as I like to call myself, a Realist. (Why should I define myself by something I DON'T believe in? A-theist = No god) And yes, there is lots of evidence that the Earth is millions of years old, and the Big Bang has been deduced from various observable facts. And yes, the universe seems to be a chaotic, dangerous place -- as we're finding out right now with Covid-19. And unfortunately, the only thing that's stopping us from being destroyed by a "super meteor" is luck (or God, if you want to go that route).

Part of the reason that I hate religion is that it gives people false hope. Even if their lives in this world are terrible, they're promised a better one in the "next world." There isn't any next world. This is it. This is all we get. And you know what? For all its sorrows, this world is pretty great. A beautiful sunset, an inspiring piece of music, a delicious meal, or the love of someone -- you really should appreciate them while you have them. Because that's all you get. But it's enough.
Faith isn’t about the destination. It’s about the journey. And understanding how things are connected and work for good increases one’s enjoyment of the journey.
If you want to put your "faith" in a nonexistent being, go right ahead. My only regret is that after we're all dead, I'll never get to say, "I told you so!" (Oh, wait -- I just did!)
The definition of faith is complete trust in something or someone. I don’t put complete trust in something or someone without good reason, Bruce.
Oh, apparently you put your complete trust in some amorphous promise of... something. What was that complete trust? Or was it a promise? I'm not sure. And what was the "good reason" that you did that for? I'm not sure.
I explained the good reasons in my other post to you. Did you miss it? Do you need for me re-post it?

I put complete trust in simple things really. That error eventually fails. That normalization of deviance will eventually lead to predictable surprises. That failed behaviors naturally lead to failure. That successful behaviors naturally lead to success. That virtue is the greatest organizing principle known to man. That there is a final state of fact for all things. That truth is discovered through a conflict and confusion process. And once discovered it is known that it was always that way and will always be that way. That truth is eternal and unchanging. That man knows right from wrong and when he violates it, rather than abandoning the concept he rationalizes he didn’t. That man has an expectation of fairness and believes in a universal truth despite his arguments against it. But most of all I have complete trust that everything works for good even when it’s not obvious to us that it does.

I don’t know what you think God promised us. I believe we were given a precious and rare gift. What we do with it is up to us.
 

Bruce Daniels

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That we're able to exist even now, at this instant that I type this.

Based on the belief of atheists, this earth, has been in existence for millions, and millions of years now, starting w/of course, the Big Bang.

That there's all types of gargantuan stars, suns, meteors, planets etc, all around the universe swirling around and that could ultimately, at one point smash in to us.

Remember, that's what they claimed happened to make the dinosaurs go extinct and caused the Ice Age. A giant meteor that all but destroyed all life on earth...in an instant.

So that was millions of years ago, aren't we due for another one right about now?

What's stopping us from being destroyed by a super meteor at any point? And how do you feel w/the knowledge that this can happen at any instant?

I'd like to hear from our resident atheists on this.

What are your thoughts?
I am an atheist, or as I like to call myself, a Realist. (Why should I define myself by something I DON'T believe in? A-theist = No god) And yes, there is lots of evidence that the Earth is millions of years old, and the Big Bang has been deduced from various observable facts. And yes, the universe seems to be a chaotic, dangerous place -- as we're finding out right now with Covid-19. And unfortunately, the only thing that's stopping us from being destroyed by a "super meteor" is luck (or God, if you want to go that route).

Part of the reason that I hate religion is that it gives people false hope. Even if their lives in this world are terrible, they're promised a better one in the "next world." There isn't any next world. This is it. This is all we get. And you know what? For all its sorrows, this world is pretty great. A beautiful sunset, an inspiring piece of music, a delicious meal, or the love of someone -- you really should appreciate them while you have them. Because that's all you get. But it's enough.
Faith isn’t about the destination. It’s about the journey. And understanding how things are connected and work for good increases one’s enjoyment of the journey.
If you want to put your "faith" in a nonexistent being, go right ahead. My only regret is that after we're all dead, I'll never get to say, "I told you so!" (Oh, wait -- I just did!)
The definition of faith is complete trust in something or someone. I don’t put complete trust in something or someone without good reason, Bruce.
Oh, apparently you put your complete trust in some amorphous promise of... something. What was that complete trust? Or was it a promise? I'm not sure. And what was the "good reason" that you did that for? I'm not sure.
I explained the good reasons in my other post to you. Did you miss it? Do you need for me re-post it?

I put complete trust in simple things really. That error eventually fails. That normalization of deviance will eventually lead to predictable surprises. That failed behaviors naturally lead to failure. That successful behaviors naturally lead to success. That virtue is the greatest organizing principle known to man. That there is a final state of fact for all things. That truth is discovered through a conflict and confusion process. And once discovered it is known that it was always that way and will always be that way. That truth is eternal and unchanging. That man knows right from wrong and when he violates it, rather than abandoning the concept he rationalizes he didn’t. That man has an expectation of fairness and believes in a universal truth despite his arguments against it. But most of all I have complete trust that everything works for good even when it’s not obvious to us that it does.

I don’t know what you think God promised us. I believe we were given a precious and rare gift. What we do with it is up to us.
I agree that LIFE is a precious gift, and what we do with it is up to us. I disagree with pretty much everything else you wrote. But if it makes you feel better to believe it, what do I care? What you believe (or what I believe, for that matter) won't change reality. It is what it is. But I do think that when people do things in this life, whether it's denying something for themselves or engineering a terrorist attack, because they believe that it's what God wants or demands, that's tragic. But I learned a long time ago that I'll never convince anyone about religion. "I know what I believe, don't confuse me with the facts."
 

ding

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That we're able to exist even now, at this instant that I type this.

Based on the belief of atheists, this earth, has been in existence for millions, and millions of years now, starting w/of course, the Big Bang.

That there's all types of gargantuan stars, suns, meteors, planets etc, all around the universe swirling around and that could ultimately, at one point smash in to us.

Remember, that's what they claimed happened to make the dinosaurs go extinct and caused the Ice Age. A giant meteor that all but destroyed all life on earth...in an instant.

So that was millions of years ago, aren't we due for another one right about now?

What's stopping us from being destroyed by a super meteor at any point? And how do you feel w/the knowledge that this can happen at any instant?

I'd like to hear from our resident atheists on this.

What are your thoughts?
I am an atheist, or as I like to call myself, a Realist. (Why should I define myself by something I DON'T believe in? A-theist = No god) And yes, there is lots of evidence that the Earth is millions of years old, and the Big Bang has been deduced from various observable facts. And yes, the universe seems to be a chaotic, dangerous place -- as we're finding out right now with Covid-19. And unfortunately, the only thing that's stopping us from being destroyed by a "super meteor" is luck (or God, if you want to go that route).

Part of the reason that I hate religion is that it gives people false hope. Even if their lives in this world are terrible, they're promised a better one in the "next world." There isn't any next world. This is it. This is all we get. And you know what? For all its sorrows, this world is pretty great. A beautiful sunset, an inspiring piece of music, a delicious meal, or the love of someone -- you really should appreciate them while you have them. Because that's all you get. But it's enough.
Faith isn’t about the destination. It’s about the journey. And understanding how things are connected and work for good increases one’s enjoyment of the journey.
If you want to put your "faith" in a nonexistent being, go right ahead. My only regret is that after we're all dead, I'll never get to say, "I told you so!" (Oh, wait -- I just did!)
The definition of faith is complete trust in something or someone. I don’t put complete trust in something or someone without good reason, Bruce.
Oh, apparently you put your complete trust in some amorphous promise of... something. What was that complete trust? Or was it a promise? I'm not sure. And what was the "good reason" that you did that for? I'm not sure.
I explained the good reasons in my other post to you. Did you miss it? Do you need for me re-post it?

I put complete trust in simple things really. That error eventually fails. That normalization of deviance will eventually lead to predictable surprises. That failed behaviors naturally lead to failure. That successful behaviors naturally lead to success. That virtue is the greatest organizing principle known to man. That there is a final state of fact for all things. That truth is discovered through a conflict and confusion process. And once discovered it is known that it was always that way and will always be that way. That truth is eternal and unchanging. That man knows right from wrong and when he violates it, rather than abandoning the concept he rationalizes he didn’t. That man has an expectation of fairness and believes in a universal truth despite his arguments against it. But most of all I have complete trust that everything works for good even when it’s not obvious to us that it does.

I don’t know what you think God promised us. I believe we were given a precious and rare gift. What we do with it is up to us.
I agree that LIFE is a precious gift, and what we do with it is up to us. I disagree with pretty much everything else you wrote. But if it makes you feel better to believe it, what do I care? What you believe (or what I believe, for that matter) won't change reality. It is what it is. But I do think that when people do things in this life, whether it's denying something for themselves or engineering a terrorist attack, because they believe that it's what God wants or demands, that's tragic. But I learned a long time ago that I'll never convince anyone about religion. "I know what I believe, don't confuse me with the facts."
It doesn’t make me feel better. It makes me do better. So it does change reality.

as for you disagreeing with concepts like normalization of deviance, locus of control, discovery of truth, etc, that’s your mistake to make.

when it comes to religion, seems you want to throw the baby out with the bath water.
 
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Newtonian

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That we're able to exist even now, at this instant that I type this.

Based on the belief of atheists, this earth, has been in existence for millions, and millions of years now, starting w/of course, the Big Bang.

That there's all types of gargantuan stars, suns, meteors, planets etc, all around the universe swirling around and that could ultimately, at one point smash in to us.

Remember, that's what they claimed happened to make the dinosaurs go extinct and caused the Ice Age. A giant meteor that all but destroyed all life on earth...in an instant.

So that was millions of years ago, aren't we due for another one right about now?

What's stopping us from being destroyed by a super meteor at any point? And how do you feel w/the knowledge that this can happen at any instant?

I'd like to hear from our resident atheists on this.

What are your thoughts?
I am an atheist, or as I like to call myself, a Realist. (Why should I define myself by something I DON'T believe in? A-theist = No god) And yes, there is lots of evidence that the Earth is millions of years old, and the Big Bang has been deduced from various observable facts. And yes, the universe seems to be a chaotic, dangerous place -- as we're finding out right now with Covid-19. And unfortunately, the only thing that's stopping us from being destroyed by a "super meteor" is luck (or God, if you want to go that route).

Part of the reason that I hate religion is that it gives people false hope. Even if their lives in this world are terrible, they're promised a better one in the "next world." There isn't any next world. This is it. This is all we get. And you know what? For all its sorrows, this world is pretty great. A beautiful sunset, an inspiring piece of music, a delicious meal, or the love of someone -- you really should appreciate them while you have them. Because that's all you get. But it's enough.
Faith isn’t about the destination. It’s about the journey. And understanding how things are connected and work for good increases one’s enjoyment of the journey.
If you want to put your "faith" in a nonexistent being, go right ahead. My only regret is that after we're all dead, I'll never get to say, "I told you so!" (Oh, wait -- I just did!)
The definition of faith is complete trust in something or someone. I don’t put complete trust in something or someone without good reason, Bruce.
Oh, apparently you put your complete trust in some amorphous promise of... something. What was that complete trust? Or was it a promise? I'm not sure. And what was the "good reason" that you did that for? I'm not sure.
Please note that I posted the Biblical definition of faith at Hebrews 11:1 which literally from the Greek and Latin is based on "substantial" "convincing evidence." That would be the reason for the trust in promises. The latter would be the proverbial 'putting the cart before the horse.' The evidence is required first - which is why I have been posting evidence of fine tuning of our earth as evidence of love and evidence against luck or chance.

[Note: there is also evidence of fine tuning of our universe - haven't go to that yet!]
There isn't ANY convincing evidence of any scientific facts in the Bible. But believe whatever you want. That won't change reality, though.
I had lost track of this thread - sorry about that.

Hi Bruce Daniels! Scientific facts in the Bible would be a good thread - is there already a thread on that topic? For this post, Genesis 1:1 that heavens and earth had a beginning is one such fact.
 

Bruce Daniels

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That we're able to exist even now, at this instant that I type this.

Based on the belief of atheists, this earth, has been in existence for millions, and millions of years now, starting w/of course, the Big Bang.

That there's all types of gargantuan stars, suns, meteors, planets etc, all around the universe swirling around and that could ultimately, at one point smash in to us.

Remember, that's what they claimed happened to make the dinosaurs go extinct and caused the Ice Age. A giant meteor that all but destroyed all life on earth...in an instant.

So that was millions of years ago, aren't we due for another one right about now?

What's stopping us from being destroyed by a super meteor at any point? And how do you feel w/the knowledge that this can happen at any instant?

I'd like to hear from our resident atheists on this.

What are your thoughts?
I am an atheist, or as I like to call myself, a Realist. (Why should I define myself by something I DON'T believe in? A-theist = No god) And yes, there is lots of evidence that the Earth is millions of years old, and the Big Bang has been deduced from various observable facts. And yes, the universe seems to be a chaotic, dangerous place -- as we're finding out right now with Covid-19. And unfortunately, the only thing that's stopping us from being destroyed by a "super meteor" is luck (or God, if you want to go that route).

Part of the reason that I hate religion is that it gives people false hope. Even if their lives in this world are terrible, they're promised a better one in the "next world." There isn't any next world. This is it. This is all we get. And you know what? For all its sorrows, this world is pretty great. A beautiful sunset, an inspiring piece of music, a delicious meal, or the love of someone -- you really should appreciate them while you have them. Because that's all you get. But it's enough.
Faith isn’t about the destination. It’s about the journey. And understanding how things are connected and work for good increases one’s enjoyment of the journey.
If you want to put your "faith" in a nonexistent being, go right ahead. My only regret is that after we're all dead, I'll never get to say, "I told you so!" (Oh, wait -- I just did!)
The definition of faith is complete trust in something or someone. I don’t put complete trust in something or someone without good reason, Bruce.
Oh, apparently you put your complete trust in some amorphous promise of... something. What was that complete trust? Or was it a promise? I'm not sure. And what was the "good reason" that you did that for? I'm not sure.
Please note that I posted the Biblical definition of faith at Hebrews 11:1 which literally from the Greek and Latin is based on "substantial" "convincing evidence." That would be the reason for the trust in promises. The latter would be the proverbial 'putting the cart before the horse.' The evidence is required first - which is why I have been posting evidence of fine tuning of our earth as evidence of love and evidence against luck or chance.

[Note: there is also evidence of fine tuning of our universe - haven't go to that yet!]
There isn't ANY convincing evidence of any scientific facts in the Bible. But believe whatever you want. That won't change reality, though.
I had lost track of this thread - sorry about that.

Hi Bruce Daniels! Scientific facts in the Bible would be a good thread - is there already a thread on that topic? For this post, Genesis 1:1 that heavens and earth had a beginning is one such fact.
The heavens and earth had a beginning. I agree, but that might be the only scientific fact in the Bible. Did that beginning happen 6,000 years ago or 4.6 billion years ago? That's the real issue. And there isn't any real debate. If you look at the evidence without the rose-colored glasses of religion, it's clear that the Earth is very, very old.

There is some history in the Bible, although it needs to be treated with caution.
 

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That we're able to exist even now, at this instant that I type this.

Based on the belief of atheists, this earth, has been in existence for millions, and millions of years now, starting w/of course, the Big Bang.

That there's all types of gargantuan stars, suns, meteors, planets etc, all around the universe swirling around and that could ultimately, at one point smash in to us.

Remember, that's what they claimed happened to make the dinosaurs go extinct and caused the Ice Age. A giant meteor that all but destroyed all life on earth...in an instant.

So that was millions of years ago, aren't we due for another one right about now?

What's stopping us from being destroyed by a super meteor at any point? And how do you feel w/the knowledge that this can happen at any instant?

I'd like to hear from our resident atheists on this.

What are your thoughts?
I am an atheist, or as I like to call myself, a Realist. (Why should I define myself by something I DON'T believe in? A-theist = No god) And yes, there is lots of evidence that the Earth is millions of years old, and the Big Bang has been deduced from various observable facts. And yes, the universe seems to be a chaotic, dangerous place -- as we're finding out right now with Covid-19. And unfortunately, the only thing that's stopping us from being destroyed by a "super meteor" is luck (or God, if you want to go that route).

Part of the reason that I hate religion is that it gives people false hope. Even if their lives in this world are terrible, they're promised a better one in the "next world." There isn't any next world. This is it. This is all we get. And you know what? For all its sorrows, this world is pretty great. A beautiful sunset, an inspiring piece of music, a delicious meal, or the love of someone -- you really should appreciate them while you have them. Because that's all you get. But it's enough.
Faith isn’t about the destination. It’s about the journey. And understanding how things are connected and work for good increases one’s enjoyment of the journey.
If you want to put your "faith" in a nonexistent being, go right ahead. My only regret is that after we're all dead, I'll never get to say, "I told you so!" (Oh, wait -- I just did!)
The definition of faith is complete trust in something or someone. I don’t put complete trust in something or someone without good reason, Bruce.
Oh, apparently you put your complete trust in some amorphous promise of... something. What was that complete trust? Or was it a promise? I'm not sure. And what was the "good reason" that you did that for? I'm not sure.
Please note that I posted the Biblical definition of faith at Hebrews 11:1 which literally from the Greek and Latin is based on "substantial" "convincing evidence." That would be the reason for the trust in promises. The latter would be the proverbial 'putting the cart before the horse.' The evidence is required first - which is why I have been posting evidence of fine tuning of our earth as evidence of love and evidence against luck or chance.

[Note: there is also evidence of fine tuning of our universe - haven't go to that yet!]
There isn't ANY convincing evidence of any scientific facts in the Bible. But believe whatever you want. That won't change reality, though.
I had lost track of this thread - sorry about that.

Hi Bruce Daniels! Scientific facts in the Bible would be a good thread - is there already a thread on that topic? For this post, Genesis 1:1 that heavens and earth had a beginning is one such fact.
The heavens and earth had a beginning. I agree, but that might be the only scientific fact in the Bible. Did that beginning happen 6,000 years ago or 4.6 billion years ago? That's the real issue. And there isn't any real debate. If you look at the evidence without the rose-colored glasses of religion, it's clear that the Earth is very, very old.

There is some history in the Bible, although it needs to be treated with caution.
Every hair on our head is numbered.

Man came from dust.

And the material world that they saw was created in steps. In other words, they didn’t believe what they saw was created in one fell swoop.

But I wouldn’t call them scientific facts. I just call them truths.
 

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