Gun Daydreaming

[Mac1958]

If a 15 year old kid picks up a rock and throws it through a window, the parents are legally responsible for replacing the window.
If that same kid picks up a gun and kills 21 people at an elementary school, the onus for that is on him. What would you charge the parents with?

I surely don't know.

In a more civil, intelligent, constructive time, we'd discuss ideas and examine them. We'd encourage and take input from all corners. We'd weigh the positives and negatives. We'd ask many questions. Then we may decide on an answer, or we'd decide to toss that one idea from the mix, or change it to a better idea.

In a more civil, intelligent, constructive time.

 

[Canon Shooter]

If the school and parents know there's a major problem with the kid they should have made a case to have the kid seeking psychiatric help or committed and be held accountable if they did not.

Okay, so you do think they should be committed.

You sure took the long way around to come back to that point.

Question: What would you charge the parents with in such an instance?

Also, how are you going to prove that they knew there was a problem? Most parents aren't psychiatrists or psychologists, and maybe they can't recognize behavior which a professional would find troubling...

 

[Canon Shooter]

I surely don't know.

In a more civil, intelligent, constructive time, we'd discuss ideas and examine them. We'd encourage and take input from all corners. We'd weigh the positives and negatives. We'd ask many questions. Then we may decide on an answer, or we'd decide to toss that one idea from the mix, or change it to a better idea.

In a more civil, intelligent, constructive time.

Well, holding the parents responsible seems to be a swell idea to you. Surely you have some idea as to what they should be charged with?

Or is this just another example of wanting something to happen but not being willing to lift a finger to see that it happens?

 

[Darkwind]

Why weren't we arguing about arming teachers and fortifying schools 40 years ago, 30 years ago?

What has happened to this country in the interim?

Hate has happened. And a generation or two who have the mental maturity of six-year-olds.

No one can turn on any aspect of the corporate media without being inundated with hate.

 

[Damaged Eagle]

Okay, so you do think they should be committed.

You sure took the long way around to come back to that point.

Question: What would you charge the parents with in such an instance?

Also, how are you going to prove that they knew there was a problem? Most parents aren't psychiatrists or psychologists, and maybe they can't recognize behavior which a professional would find troubling...

If the parents were being informed by the school or law authorities that there's a problem and the school or law authorities documents that the parents refused to cooperate in assisting in correction of the problem I'd say there's documentation enough to prove the parents knew.

*****SMILE*****

 

[Canon Shooter]

...documents that the parents refused to cooperate in assisting in correction of the problem...

"Assisting"?

Who would they be assisting?

 

[Damaged Eagle]

"Assisting"?

Who would they be assisting?

If the school or law authorities suggest that the child be sent to a mental institution or some special educational facility for a while I would say the parents should be cooperative unless the parents can prove that the child is not a threat.

But of course this too is a slippery slope because then how far will they take that and what might be deemed a threat?

*****SMILE*****

 

[Muhammed]

Just belching a few thoughts onto the internet for me to look at in writing. I'm not expecting anything of interest or value to come from this thread.

So on a macro level, regarding guns, I'm seeing two distinct areas that we would need to address. Obviously this isn't going to happen, because neither end of the issue is willing to look in the mirror or give an inch. In other words, America can no longer fix problems. Anyway, the two distinct areas are statutory and cultural. If I had my way, which I don't, we'd run with the following:

Statutory
Start with the facts: There are nearly 400 million guns in this country, so the cat is out of the bag now and we have to deal with WHAT IS. The saying "if guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns" is absolutely true and perfectly reasonable, So on the statutory side, we have to be thoughtful and fair. So let's try:

• Increasing gun purchasing minimum age to 21
• Significantly increase security at schools, with the agreement that this is a band-aid, a shorter term fix, as we address the larger issues
• Tightening gun sales laws regarding background checks, closing loopholes as tightly as possible
• Connect gun background checks with something like "PsychPro", a national mental health registry
• Look at reviewing mental health status on a regular basis (an accurate and comprehensive national database would make that easy)
• Ideas we come up with together???

Cultural
We ache for the children who die in school shootings and pay nearly zero (0) attention to those who are dying every week on the streets of Chicago and LA. We have a culture that has been in decay for decades, to pretend that it is not is blatantly dishonest, and it's clearly only feeding on itself. As a nation, and hopefully with aggressive buy-in and leadership from top cultural figures, we would do all we could to address:

• Violence and gore on television and in movies
• Violent and gory video games
• Music that glamorizes violence, drugs, death, crime, rape and misogyny, among other things
• Maintaining expectations for communities and schools to raise standards
• Holding the purveyors of the above culturally and socially accountable
• Holding political leaders accountable when they don't press the issue with constituents
• Ideas we come up with together???

Then, we wait, see how things are going, and consider whether we should also:
Some ideas could be:

• Banning assault weapons, remembering with basic intellectual honesty that they are not the muskets to which the Founders referred
• Statutory controls on entertainment content (not fond of this one, but...)
• Assigning legal responsibility to parents for the actions of their children after a certain stage (ditto)
• Ideas we come up with together???

There. Again, this ain't gonna happen. We lack the ability now. Just daydreaming a bit.

Your fascist authoritarianism is showing again.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

If the school or law authorities suggest that the child be sent to a mental institution or some special educational facility for a while I would say the parents should be cooperative unless the parents can prove that the child is not a threat.

But of course this too is a slippery slope because then how far will they take that and what might be deemed a threat?

*****SMILE*****

For sure... "Mr. and Mrs. Smith, it is our opinion your son needs to be placed in a reeducation facility, he has been refusing to acknowledge gay pride month. We take homophobia very seriously and believe that this might lead to physical violence"

 

[WelfareQueen]

Just belching a few thoughts onto the internet for me to look at in writing. I'm not expecting anything of interest or value to come from this thread.

So on a macro level, regarding guns, I'm seeing two distinct areas that we would need to address. Obviously this isn't going to happen, because neither end of the issue is willing to look in the mirror or give an inch. In other words, America can no longer fix problems. Anyway, the two distinct areas are statutory and cultural. If I had my way, which I don't, we'd run with the following:

Statutory
Start with the facts: There are nearly 400 million guns in this country, so the cat is out of the bag now and we have to deal with WHAT IS. The saying "if guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns" is absolutely true and perfectly reasonable, So on the statutory side, we have to be thoughtful and fair. So let's try:

• Increasing gun purchasing minimum age to 21
• Significantly increase security at schools, with the agreement that this is a band-aid, a shorter term fix, as we address the larger issues
• Tightening gun sales laws regarding background checks, closing loopholes as tightly as possible
• Connect gun background checks with something like "PsychPro", a national mental health registry
• Look at reviewing mental health status on a regular basis (an accurate and comprehensive national database would make that easy)
• Ideas we come up with together???

Cultural
We ache for the children who die in school shootings and pay nearly zero (0) attention to those who are dying every week on the streets of Chicago and LA. We have a culture that has been in decay for decades, to pretend that it is not is blatantly dishonest, and it's clearly only feeding on itself. As a nation, and hopefully with aggressive buy-in and leadership from top cultural figures, we would do all we could to address:

• Violence and gore on television and in movies
• Violent and gory video games
• Music that glamorizes violence, drugs, death, crime, rape and misogyny, among other things
• Maintaining expectations for communities and schools to raise standards
• Holding the purveyors of the above culturally and socially accountable
• Holding political leaders accountable when they don't press the issue with constituents
• Ideas we come up with together???

Then, we wait, see how things are going, and consider whether we should also:
Some ideas could be:

• Banning assault weapons, remembering with basic intellectual honesty that they are not the muskets to which the Founders referred
• Statutory controls on entertainment content (not fond of this one, but...)
• Assigning legal responsibility to parents for the actions of their children after a certain stage (ditto)
• Ideas we come up with together???

There. Again, this ain't gonna happen. We lack the ability now. Just daydreaming a bit.

Some pretty good ideas. The mental health angle is the most overlooked imho. Mass shootings are increasing not due to the ready availability of guns (that has always been the case). It is a cultural phenomenon, and a generational issue. The question is why do so many young people desire to go out in a blaze of glory instead of just killing themselves?

Why isn't society and mental health experts looking more closely and studying the psychological make-up of these young people?

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Some pretty good ideas. The mental health angle is the most overlooked imho. Mass shootings are increasing not due to the ready availability of guns (that has always been the case). It is a cultural phenomenon, and a generational issue. The question is why do so many young people desire to go out in a blaze of glory instead of just killing themselves?

That is what I say.
Psychopaths, for instance, number about 6 out of every 1000 people. So every large school in the world will have at least one psychopath in the student body.
Only about 1 in 200 psychopaths historically ever hurt a single human being. But they are far-far-far more likely to commit violence than normative people if pushed.
My serious question is are we creating monsters? Is today's society of broken homes, social media, isolationist culture, outrage driven media... division... etc. etc. - is this the catalyst that is creating this relatively new phenomena?

 

[MarathonMike]

Just belching a few thoughts onto the internet for me to look at in writing. I'm not expecting anything of interest or value to come from this thread.

So on a macro level, regarding guns, I'm seeing two distinct areas that we would need to address. Obviously this isn't going to happen, because neither end of the issue is willing to look in the mirror or give an inch. In other words, America can no longer fix problems. Anyway, the two distinct areas are statutory and cultural. If I had my way, which I don't, we'd run with the following:

Statutory
Start with the facts: There are nearly 400 million guns in this country, so the cat is out of the bag now and we have to deal with WHAT IS. The saying "if guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns" is absolutely true and perfectly reasonable, So on the statutory side, we have to be thoughtful and fair. So let's try:

• Increasing gun purchasing minimum age to 21
• Significantly increase security at schools, with the agreement that this is a band-aid, a shorter term fix, as we address the larger issues
• Tightening gun sales laws regarding background checks, closing loopholes as tightly as possible
• Connect gun background checks with something like "PsychPro", a national mental health registry
• Look at reviewing mental health status on a regular basis (an accurate and comprehensive national database would make that easy)
• Ideas we come up with together???

Cultural
We ache for the children who die in school shootings and pay nearly zero (0) attention to those who are dying every week on the streets of Chicago and LA. We have a culture that has been in decay for decades, to pretend that it is not is blatantly dishonest, and it's clearly only feeding on itself. As a nation, and hopefully with aggressive buy-in and leadership from top cultural figures, we would do all we could to address:

• Violence and gore on television and in movies
• Violent and gory video games
• Music that glamorizes violence, drugs, death, crime, rape and misogyny, among other things
• Maintaining expectations for communities and schools to raise standards
• Holding the purveyors of the above culturally and socially accountable
• Holding political leaders accountable when they don't press the issue with constituents
• Ideas we come up with together???

Then, we wait, see how things are going, and consider whether we should also:
Some ideas could be:

• Banning assault weapons, remembering with basic intellectual honesty that they are not the muskets to which the Founders referred
• Statutory controls on entertainment content (not fond of this one, but...)
• Assigning legal responsibility to parents for the actions of their children after a certain stage (ditto)
• Ideas we come up with together???

There. Again, this ain't gonna happen. We lack the ability now. Just daydreaming a bit.

One of your better posts IMO for sure. Under "cultural" I would add a concerted effort to track exactly all HOW all the drugs and guns are getting into the inner cities and more importantly WHO is facilitating and benefiting from it. That is the driver behind the inner city shootings of Chicago, Pittsburgh, LA, Baltimore etc.

 

[Mac1958]

One of your better posts IMO for sure. Under "cultural" I would add a concerted effort to track exactly all HOW all the drugs and guns are getting into the inner cities and more importantly WHO is facilitating and benefiting from it. That is the driver behind the inner city shootings of Chicago, Pittsburgh, LA, Baltimore etc.

Definitely add that one to the list.

 

[Damaged Eagle]

Seems the whole Ramos family had...

Family of Uvalde school shooter Salvador Ramos have criminal records

Both parents and the grandma of the Texas school shooter Salvador Ramos had criminal records, including aggravated assault with a deadly weapon and trying to pass off a fake check.

nypost.com

...issues.

*****SMILE*****

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Increasing gun purchasing minimum age to 21

Currently subject to court challenges.

Tightening gun sales laws regarding background checks, closing loopholes as tightly as possible

That would be enacting a universal background check for private face-to-face intrastate firearm transactions between state residents – such transactions are currently not subject to a background check.

Connect gun background checks with something like "PsychPro", a national mental health registry

The NICS database currently documents those adjudicated to be mentally incompetent by a judge.

Look at reviewing mental health status on a regular basis (an accurate and comprehensive national database would make that easy)

But it wouldn’t survive a Fourth Amendment challenge absent due process.

And any serious discussion concerning mental health and gun crime and violence would require expanding Medicaid in all 50 states to ensure young adults have access to affordable mental healthcare.

We have a culture that has been in decay for decades

Disagree.

For thousands of years citizens of countless civilizations have decried that their culture has been ‘in decay for decades’ – it’s a cliché devoid of merit.

And American culture is inherently violent, we have always been a violent Nation; in the United States violence is seen as a legitimate form of conflict resolution, from corporal punishment in our schools to capital punishment in our prisons.

Addressing Americans’ propensity for gore and violence must be far more comprehensive than merely admonishing those who create television shows, movies, and video games – they’re only reflections of the violence that is American culture.

Firearm manufacturers clearly need to stop using aggressive advertising schemes targeting young men with images of military war and violence.

Banning assault weapons

Likely wouldn’t survive a Second Amendment challenge; bans are infamous for not working and would be unwarranted government excess and overreach.

Statutory controls on entertainment content (not fond of this one, but...)

Appropriately so, given it wouldn’t survive a First Amendment challenge.

Assigning legal responsibility to parents for the actions of their children after a certain stage

This depends on what constitutes ‘legal responsibility’ – Anglo-American judicial tradition has long been hostile to holding family members accountable for the actions of other family members, and for obvious reasons.

 

[Mac1958]

Not one single point you made doesn't deserve to be on the discussion table.
All of it is worthy of genuine discussion.
It's called compromise and solving problems.

Well, that appears to be the problem. I don't think that solving problems is our top priority any more. Literally.

Our top priority is "beating" the other tribe. Then the heavy intellectual lifting of compromise, collaboration and innovation can be completely avoided.

So with an idea like this, if a tribe member doesn't like it top to bottom, they can just toss the whole thing out without any further thought or effort.

America has become intellectually lazy in the extreme. We can barely move at this point. And the decay continues.

 

[Devils_Advocate]

I'd like to see it made standard that ALL congresspeople pass a firearms safety class.

At least then, they'd have a clue about what they're talking about.

And a Psychological Evaluation…

Why?

Show me one sane person in Government then you have my vote on making those that want to own guns go through that evaluation…

Just belching a few thoughts onto the internet for me to look at in writing. I'm not expecting anything of interest or value to come from this thread.

So on a macro level, regarding guns, I'm seeing two distinct areas that we would need to address. Obviously this isn't going to happen, because neither end of the issue is willing to look in the mirror or give an inch. In other words, America can no longer fix problems. Anyway, the two distinct areas are statutory and cultural. If I had my way, which I don't, we'd run with the following:

Statutory
Start with the facts: There are nearly 400 million guns in this country, so the cat is out of the bag now and we have to deal with WHAT IS. The saying "if guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns" is absolutely true and perfectly reasonable, So on the statutory side, we have to be thoughtful and fair. So let's try:

• Increasing gun purchasing minimum age to 21
• Significantly increase security at schools, with the agreement that this is a band-aid, a shorter term fix, as we address the larger issues
• Tightening gun sales laws regarding background checks, closing loopholes as tightly as possible
• Connect gun background checks with something like "PsychPro", a national mental health registry
• Look at reviewing mental health status on a regular basis (an accurate and comprehensive national database would make that easy)
• Ideas we come up with together???

Cultural
We ache for the children who die in school shootings and pay nearly zero (0) attention to those who are dying every week on the streets of Chicago and LA. We have a culture that has been in decay for decades, to pretend that it is not is blatantly dishonest, and it's clearly only feeding on itself. As a nation, and hopefully with aggressive buy-in and leadership from top cultural figures, we would do all we could to address:

• Violence and gore on television and in movies
• Violent and gory video games
• Music that glamorizes violence, drugs, death, crime, rape and misogyny, among other things
• Maintaining expectations for communities and schools to raise standards
• Holding the purveyors of the above culturally and socially accountable
• Holding political leaders accountable when they don't press the issue with constituents
• Ideas we come up with together???

Then, we wait, see how things are going, and consider whether we should also:
Some ideas could be:

• Banning assault weapons, remembering with basic intellectual honesty that they are not the muskets to which the Founders referred
• Statutory controls on entertainment content (not fond of this one, but...)
• Assigning legal responsibility to parents for the actions of their children after a certain stage (ditto)
• Ideas we come up with together???

There. Again, this ain't gonna happen. We lack the ability now. Just daydreaming a bit.

If we raise the age to own a firearm then we must raise the age for voting also and serving in the military.

I am extreme on this and believe the adult age should be twenty-five ( the age to run for Congress )…

Gun training, insurance and so on isn’t going to fly with the NRA and it lobbyist’s.

Focusing on the culture of violence for Movies to Games to Music will not do anything because of the First Amendment.

Where all this need to be focus on is the Parents and Schooling and how we as a society have failed.

I agree Schools need more securing and I believe nothing will be done except for some Window Dressing…

We ain’t becoming Sweden but if I had my way I would move there than stay here in America…

Then again I am moving to the Philippines, so what goes on here will no longer bother me once I leave…

 

[Mac1958]

And a Psychological Evaluation…

Why?

Show me one sane person in Government then you have my vote on making those that want to own guns go through that evaluation…

If we raise the age to own a firearm then we must raise the age for voting also and serving in the military.

I am extreme on this and believe the adult age should be twenty-five ( the age to run for Congress )…

Gun training, insurance and so on isn’t going to fly with the NRA and it lobbyist’s.

Focusing on the culture of violence for Movies to Games to Music will not do anything because of the First Amendment.

Where all this need to be focus on is the Parents and Schooling and how we as a society have failed.

I agree Schools need more securing and I believe nothing will be done except for some Window Dressing…

We ain’t becoming Sweden but if I had my way I would move there than stay here in America…

Then again I am moving to the Philippines, so what goes on here will no longer bother me once I leave…

My thought on being in the military is that, for the first three years, they're just not given a gun. There are other things they can do during that time.

I'm sure as hell no military expert, but maybe they could spend that time getting both generalized education and specific military tech/strategy/etc. training, not to mention administrative and maintenance crap.

 

[Devils_Advocate]

My thought on being in the military is that, for the first three years, they're just not given a gun. There are other things they can do during that time.

I'm sure as hell no military expert, but maybe they could spend that time getting both generalized education and specific military tech/strategy/etc. training, not to mention administrative and maintenance crap.

I see no reason to have a kid in the military unless we are at war and need bodies to fill body bags with.

Here is the issue Mac and it is a sad day when I admit you and I can come to some sort of agreement before our elected leaders can.

Do I believe people should be able to own AR-15’s?

No, but I do digress it is protected under the second amendment but I feel it should be put on the same list as the UZI and Tommy Gun.

Mac I have to be truthful of America adopted a more Swedish way of thinking things would change but we must remember America was built on violence ( like another poster wrote ) and it is in the blood and teaching of this society, so how do you change the minds of many?

It has to start in the Schooling and will take decades and even then it might never happen…

I don’t know Max but all you wrote isn’t really something people should oppose but they will oppose because the media they are watching will tell them to oppose it…

Maybe I am wired differently and believe the violence is killing this great nation and drastic measures should be taken to teach the children to play nicely but again it ain’t happening…

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Just belching a few thoughts onto the internet for me to look at in writing. I'm not expecting anything of interest or value to come from this thread.

So on a macro level, regarding guns, I'm seeing two distinct areas that we would need to address. Obviously this isn't going to happen, because neither end of the issue is willing to look in the mirror or give an inch. In other words, America can no longer fix problems. Anyway, the two distinct areas are statutory and cultural. If I had my way, which I don't, we'd run with the following:

Statutory
Start with the facts: There are nearly 400 million guns in this country, so the cat is out of the bag now and we have to deal with WHAT IS. The saying "if guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns" is absolutely true and perfectly reasonable, So on the statutory side, we have to be thoughtful and fair. So let's try:

• Increasing gun purchasing minimum age to 21
• Significantly increase security at schools, with the agreement that this is a band-aid, a shorter term fix, as we address the larger issues
• Tightening gun sales laws regarding background checks, closing loopholes as tightly as possible
• Connect gun background checks with something like "PsychPro", a national mental health registry
• Look at reviewing mental health status on a regular basis (an accurate and comprehensive national database would make that easy)
• Ideas we come up with together???

Cultural
We ache for the children who die in school shootings and pay nearly zero (0) attention to those who are dying every week on the streets of Chicago and LA. We have a culture that has been in decay for decades, to pretend that it is not is blatantly dishonest, and it's clearly only feeding on itself. As a nation, and hopefully with aggressive buy-in and leadership from top cultural figures, we would do all we could to address:

• Violence and gore on television and in movies
• Violent and gory video games
• Music that glamorizes violence, drugs, death, crime, rape and misogyny, among other things
• Maintaining expectations for communities and schools to raise standards
• Holding the purveyors of the above culturally and socially accountable
• Holding political leaders accountable when they don't press the issue with constituents
• Ideas we come up with together???

Then, we wait, see how things are going, and consider whether we should also:
Some ideas could be:

• Banning assault weapons, remembering with basic intellectual honesty that they are not the muskets to which the Founders referred
• Statutory controls on entertainment content (not fond of this one, but...)
• Assigning legal responsibility to parents for the actions of their children after a certain stage (ditto)
• Ideas we come up with together???

There. Again, this ain't gonna happen. We lack the ability now. Just daydreaming a bit.

You're day dreaming? Kind of hard to do while cut and paste this article with no link.