God is necessary for morality to survive | Polichickster v Dante

[Procrustes Stretched]

yes god is necessary for morality to survive.

And people who do not believe in god?

 

[yidnar]

yes god is necessary for morality to survive.

And people who do not believe in god?

the moral foundations have already been laid and written into law for them by religious people in the past.

 

[Vandalshandle]

yes god is necessary for morality to survive.

And people who do not believe in god?

Then it stands to reason that we are not moral. However, the religious are moral, which makes them rightous. And since only they are rightous, and we are not, it makes them self rightous.

Somehow, I knew this all along.

 

[yidnar]

yes god is necessary for morality to survive.

And people who do not believe in god?

Then it stands to reason that we are not moral. However, the religious are moral, which makes them rightous. And since only they are rightous, and we are not, it makes them self rightous.

Somehow, I knew this all along.

thats not what i am saying at all.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

yes god is necessary for morality to survive.

And people who do not believe in god?

the moral foundations have already been laid and written into law for them by religious people in the past.

a lot of the moral foundations were written into law by religious people who changed gods like we today change sock puppets.

what constituted religion as tribes laid down laws? human sacrifice? eating bark off of trees n order to communicate with the gods?

 

[yidnar]

And people who do not believe in god?

the moral foundations have already been laid and written into law for them by religious people in the past.

a lot of the moral foundations were written into law by religious people who changed gods like we today change sock puppets.

what constituted religion as tribes laid down laws? human sacrifice? eating bark off of trees n order to communicate with the gods?

religion may have started that way to appease an angry god ,but most beliefs in god have evolved which helped lead to the betterment of society.

 

[yidnar]

the moral foundations have already been laid and written into law for them by religious people in the past.

a lot of the moral foundations were written into law by religious people who changed gods like we today change sock puppets.

what constituted religion as tribes laid down laws? human sacrifice? eating bark off of trees n order to communicate with the gods?

religion may have started that way to appease an angry god ,but most beliefs in god have evolved which helped lead to the betterment of society.

............

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

the moral foundations have already been laid and written into law for them by religious people in the past.

a lot of the moral foundations were written into law by religious people who changed gods like we today change sock puppets.

what constituted religion as tribes laid down laws? human sacrifice? eating bark off of trees n order to communicate with the gods?

religion may have started that way to appease an angry god ,but most beliefs in god have evolved which helped lead to the betterment of society.

Most of the time the state religion have different duties. Ethics and morals as human constructs evolved out of the minds of man. Societies develop codes and laws in order to survive and flourish. Putting lipstick on a pig or putting human ideas on a god...same thing

 

[UKRider]

yes god is necessary for morality to survive.

And people who do not believe in god?

They must find the morality from within. That where the religion came from imho.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

yes god is necessary for morality to survive.

And people who do not believe in god?

They must find the morality from within. That where the religion came from imho.

Spirituality and dreams, myths and mythology, symbolism, metaphor all come from within. Religion comes from outside.

When god is mistaken as being out there, you get religion. When god is recognized as being within...no more hocus pocus and societal controls

 

[UKRider]

And people who do not believe in god?

They must find the morality from within. That where the religion came from imho.

Spirituality and dreams, myths and mythology, symbolism, metaphor all come from within. Religion comes from outside.

When god is mistaken as being out there, you get religion. When god is recognized as being within...no more hocus pocus and societal controls

I think it's all man made. There's too many non-believers worldwide who have their own cultural conceptions of morality for me to accept an either or philosophy. So I attribute it all to man, both secularism and spirituality.

It's all one and the same to me.

 

[Dot Com]

i think "organized" religion such as monotheism, the way it has evolved into its present hierarchical structure, is a ponzi scheme/power grab but thats just me.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

great minds agree

 

[UKRider]

Yes. Organization is the word I'd go with as well.

 

[Michelle420]

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

Some people are sensitive about God, maybe if you choose a different topic she would accept the debate challenge.

Dear Dante and Drifter:
I think we could reword the issue being debated and the context
where we could engage in meaningful exchange.
See my previous message to WryCatcher.

If we can't reach an agreement as to the connection
between God/nature ie the thing BEING represented
and the multiple representations in man's systems
used to reflect nature/God/whatever universal laws.

Could we focus on the factor that either allows
or doesn't allow people to reconcile
as being "forgiveness/unforgiveness"

And then it could lead to a debate if thiso
level of forgiveness for all humanity
is what Jesus/God's grace is about.
Some Christians may say no, you have to
call it by the name JESUS or it's not the same thing.
Other Christians have already decided that God/Jesus
is manifesting and governing all things whether you
call it by those names or not, it is one and the same.

If PC is willing to explore some other framework
for setting up the debate about God or Jesus
being essential and central to humanity's survival,
I am willing to help interpret or reword it so it
can be debated or possibly resolved with others
coming from a nontheistic or liberal viewpoint.

There are ways to work around the language
so we make the same or related points without
getting caught up in differences in how we
see and say things, the concepts can still be parallel.

Can you read the longer msg to WC and
tell me what you think?

I will see if PC responds with any further
comments or suggestions how to approach this!

Thank you,
Emily

I like the thought you put into your posts, thanks for the shout out

 

[emilynghiem]

yes god is necessary for morality to survive.

And people who do not believe in god?

Then it stands to reason that we are not moral. However, the religious are moral, which makes them rightous. And since only they are rightous, and we are not, it makes them self rightous.

Somehow, I knew this all along.

Dear VS and Dante:
I don't feel nontheists are left out of this.
Natural laws are self-existing also, and can be included as part of the divine laws
attributed to God's creation.
So people's natural conscience is based on this level, which I find to be universal
with people regardless of theistic or nontheistic, political religious or secular views.

And also Constitutional laws were derived from natural laws,
so anyone who is trying to live by those principles in whatever form or variation is included
in humanity's moral compass.

I would say both natural laws and the derivative or statutory Constitutional laws,
which I find people naturally defend and believe in as human beings who
want their free will, free speech, right to security and due process etc
just by our human nature and conscience alone,
ARE given by teh same God or universal source
as the other representations of universal laws
from Buddhism to Christianity and even social sciences and secular humanist
philosophy.

Just because the moral codes of individuals are diversified in expression
does not mean they do not reflect the same universal laws that
apply to all humanity. You can say this comes from nature or God
or say that those are the same thing anyway. The laws are still
universally affecting and motivating all people regardless if we
express these using religion or secular terms and principles.

Do you want to debate that?
If the natural laws that Gentiles and nontheists follow
align with the divine laws that Jews/Muslims/Christians are under?
And if these things are universal they can be attributed to the
same source or God?

I am happy to debate that Gentiles under natural laws
are included in salvation in Christ who governs both paths.

I can cite some Bible passages, but most of the proof is
really in the mind of the perceiver who would have to
be equally forgiving of both the Christians and the
Atheists who have been rejecting each other in order
to accept this interpretation of inclusion in Christ Jesus.

Most of the objection to this interpretation is
due to unforgiveness of one side by the other
due to past rejection that would have to be resolved
in order to let that part go and see what is
really possible in reaching an agreement when
that resentment and hostile division is removed first.

 

[emilynghiem]

i think "organized" religion such as monotheism, the way it has evolved into its present hierarchical structure, is a ponzi scheme/power grab but thats just me.

Don't forget political parties, that sell all kinds of propaganda to their followers for votes and money and then don't solve any of the problems those resources could have gone toward.

Aside from the cultish bad side of large collective organizations that get too bureaucratic and lose accountability to the people and purposes they are supposed to be representing

I find the GOOD use of religious and political affiliations is to organize people by
issue and approach and cultural language so they have as direct representation as possible on a local scale, and still connect globally with others. So these huge collective groups can still be used to delegate different issues to organize people and resources around
so each group can focus on developing, refining and implementing
solutions in an area they specialize in. Like if Greens work on environment issues,
Buddhists and Christians work on spiritual healing of generational suffering and
sickness, Democrats work on converting prisons into schools and health care
facilities where public services are provided as part of medical education to cut costs, Republicans work on securing the border by building military teaching hospitals and work-study programs for restitution for trafficking crimes, etc.

 

[Foxfyre]

They must find the morality from within. That where the religion came from imho.

Spirituality and dreams, myths and mythology, symbolism, metaphor all come from within. Religion comes from outside.

When god is mistaken as being out there, you get religion. When god is recognized as being within...no more hocus pocus and societal controls

I think it's all man made. There's too many non-believers worldwide who have their own cultural conceptions of morality for me to accept an either or philosophy. So I attribute it all to man, both secularism and spirituality.

It's all one and the same to me.

Some of it is for sure. But I have to believe that some force greater than ourselves is driving the process. Otherwise there would be no incentive to be unselfish, selfless, or care about anything other than our own benefit.

I am convinced that most religion is manmade. I am equally convinced that God is not.

 

[Vandalshandle]

God talks to me on a regular basis. He told me that he never much cared for Falwell, but really liked Elvis. He thinks Mormons are nuts, but has really kind of gotten in to a lot of the Oriental meditation stuff. In fact, he said that the reason that people don't hear from him very much is because he is busy meditating. He does make time for me, however, because he considers me special. He wants you to send your money to me at P. O. box 39901, Tucson, AZ.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Some people are sensitive about God, maybe if you choose a different topic she would accept the debate challenge.

Dear Dante and Drifter:...
Thank you,
Emily

I like the thought you put into your posts, thanks for the shout out

but she seems oblivious to replies.