Zone1 Five Major Problems With The Trinity - by Sean Finnegan

[onefour1]

LDS and JW's are Christians as much as Gnostic Christians were Christian, which they weren't.

The article Nontrinitarianism does a decent job of describing The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints view of the Godhead.

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) teaches that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct beings that are not united in substance, a view sometimes called social trinitarianism. They believe the three individual deities are "one" in will or purpose, as Jesus was "one" with his disciples, and that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit constitute a single godhead united in purpose.[31] Latter-day Saints believe that Christ is the Firstborn of the Father,[32] that he is subordinate to God the Father (Matthew 26:39),[33] and that Christ created the universe.[33][34] Latter-day Saints do not subscribe to the ideas that Christ was unlike the Father in substance[35] and that the Father could not appear on earth,[36] or that Christ was adopted by the Father,[32] as presented in Arianism.[34][37] Latter-day Saints assert that both God and the resurrected Christ have perfected glorified, physical bodies,[38] but do not otherwise classify deity in terms of substance. While Latter-day Saints regard God the Father as the supreme being and literal father of the spirits of all humankind, they also teach that Christ and the Holy Spirit are equally divine and that they share in the Father's "comprehension of all things".[39]"

The church itself defines the Godhead as follows:

God, Godhead​

• See also Father in Heaven; Holy Ghost; Jesus Christ; Lord

There are three separate persons in the Godhead: God, the Eternal Father; His Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost. We believe in each of Them (A of F 1:1). From latter-day revelation we learn that the Father and the Son have tangible bodies of flesh and bone and that the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit, without flesh and bone (D&C 130:22–23). These three persons are one in perfect unity and harmony of purpose and doctrine (John 17:21–23; 2 Ne. 31:21; 3 Ne. 11:27, 36).

GOD THE FATHER​

It is generally the Father, or Elohim, who is referred to by the title God. He is called the Father because He is the father of our spirits (Num. 16:22; 27:16; Mal. 2:10; Matt. 6:9; Eph. 4:6; Heb. 12:9). God the Father is the supreme ruler of the universe. He is all powerful (Gen. 18:14; Alma 26:35; D&C 19:1–3), all knowing (Matt. 6:8; 2 Ne. 2:24), and everywhere present through His Spirit (Ps. 139:7–12; D&C 88:7–13, 41). Mankind has a special relationship to God that sets man apart from all other created things: men and women are God’s spirit children (Ps. 82:6; 1 Jn. 3:1–3; D&C 20:17–18).
There are few recorded instances of God the Father appearing to or speaking to man. The scriptures say that He spoke to Adam and Eve (Moses 4:14–31) and introduced Jesus Christ on several occasions (Matt. 3:17; 17:5; John 12:28–29; 3 Ne. 11:3–7). He appeared to Stephen (Acts 7:55–56) and Joseph Smith (JS—H 1:17). Later He appeared to both Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon (D&C 76:20, 23). To those who love God and purify themselves before Him, God sometimes grants the privilege of seeing and knowing for themselves that He is God (Matt. 5:8; 3 Ne. 12:8; D&C 76:116–118; 93:1).

• My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me, Mark 15:34.
• These men are the servants of the most high God, Acts 16:17.
• We are the offspring of God, Acts 17:28–29.
• Thou shalt offer thy sacraments unto the Most High, D&C 59:10–12.
• Enoch beheld the spirits that God had created, Moses 6:36.
• Man of Holiness is his name, Moses 6:57.

GOD THE SON​

The God known as Jehovah is the Son, Jesus Christ (Isa. 12:2; 43:11; 49:26; 1 Cor. 10:1–4; 1 Tim. 1:1; Rev. 1:8; 2 Ne. 22:2). Jesus works under the direction of the Father and is in complete harmony with Him. All mankind are His brothers and sisters, for He is the eldest of the spirit children of Elohim. Some scripture references refer to Him by the word God. For example, the scripture says that “God created the heaven and the earth” (Gen. 1:1), but it was actually Jesus who was the Creator under the direction of God the Father (John 1:1–3, 10, 14; Heb. 1:1–2).

• The Lord identified himself as I AM, Ex. 3:13–16.
• I am the Lord [Jehovah], and beside me there is no savior, Isa. 43:11 (Isa. 45:21).
• I am the light of the world, John 8:12.
• Before Abraham was, I am, John 8:58.
• The Lord shall minister among men in a tabernacle of clay, Mosiah 3:5–10.
• Abinadi explained how Christ is the Father and the Son, Mosiah 15:1–4 (Ether 3:14).
• The Lord appeared to the brother of Jared, Ether 3.
• Listen to the words of Christ your Lord and your God, Moro. 8:8.
• Jehovah is the judge of the quick and the dead, Moro. 10:34.
• Jesus appeared to Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon, D&C 76:20, 23.
• The Lord Jehovah appeared in the Kirtland Temple, D&C 110:1–4.
• Jehovah spoke to Abraham, Abr. 1:16–19.
• Jesus appeared to Joseph Smith, JS—H 1:17.

GOD THE HOLY GHOST​

The Holy Ghost is also a God and is called the Holy Spirit, the Spirit, and the Spirit of God, among other similar names and titles. With the aid of the Holy Ghost, man can know the will of God the Father and know that Jesus is the Christ (1 Cor. 12:3).

• The Holy Ghost will teach you what you should say, Luke 12:12.
• The Holy Ghost is the Comforter, John 14:26 (John 16:7–15).
• Jesus gave commandments to the Apostles through the Holy Ghost, Acts 1:2.
• The Holy Ghost bears witness of God and Christ, Acts 5:29–32 (1 Cor. 12:3).
• The Holy Ghost also is a witness to us, Heb. 10:10–17.
• By the power of the Holy Ghost you may know the truth of all things, Moro. 10:5.
• The Holy Ghost is the spirit of revelation, D&C 8:2–3 (D&C 68:4).

 

[ding]

The article Nontrinitarianism does a decent job of describing The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints view of the Godhead.

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) teaches that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct beings that are not united in substance, a view sometimes called social trinitarianism. They believe the three individual deities are "one" in will or purpose, as Jesus was "one" with his disciples, and that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit constitute a single godhead united in purpose.[31] Latter-day Saints believe that Christ is the Firstborn of the Father,[32] that he is subordinate to God the Father (Matthew 26:39),[33] and that Christ created the universe.[33][34] Latter-day Saints do not subscribe to the ideas that Christ was unlike the Father in substance[35] and that the Father could not appear on earth,[36] or that Christ was adopted by the Father,[32] as presented in Arianism.[34][37] Latter-day Saints assert that both God and the resurrected Christ have perfected glorified, physical bodies,[38] but do not otherwise classify deity in terms of substance. While Latter-day Saints regard God the Father as the supreme being and literal father of the spirits of all humankind, they also teach that Christ and the Holy Spirit are equally divine and that they share in the Father's "comprehension of all things".[39]"

The church itself defines the Godhead as follows:

God, Godhead​

• See also Father in Heaven; Holy Ghost; Jesus Christ; Lord

There are three separate persons in the Godhead: God, the Eternal Father; His Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost. We believe in each of Them (A of F 1:1). From latter-day revelation we learn that the Father and the Son have tangible bodies of flesh and bone and that the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit, without flesh and bone (D&C 130:22–23). These three persons are one in perfect unity and harmony of purpose and doctrine (John 17:21–23; 2 Ne. 31:21; 3 Ne. 11:27, 36).

GOD THE FATHER​

It is generally the Father, or Elohim, who is referred to by the title God. He is called the Father because He is the father of our spirits (Num. 16:22; 27:16; Mal. 2:10; Matt. 6:9; Eph. 4:6; Heb. 12:9). God the Father is the supreme ruler of the universe. He is all powerful (Gen. 18:14; Alma 26:35; D&C 19:1–3), all knowing (Matt. 6:8; 2 Ne. 2:24), and everywhere present through His Spirit (Ps. 139:7–12; D&C 88:7–13, 41). Mankind has a special relationship to God that sets man apart from all other created things: men and women are God’s spirit children (Ps. 82:6; 1 Jn. 3:1–3; D&C 20:17–18).
There are few recorded instances of God the Father appearing to or speaking to man. The scriptures say that He spoke to Adam and Eve (Moses 4:14–31) and introduced Jesus Christ on several occasions (Matt. 3:17; 17:5; John 12:28–29; 3 Ne. 11:3–7). He appeared to Stephen (Acts 7:55–56) and Joseph Smith (JS—H 1:17). Later He appeared to both Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon (D&C 76:20, 23). To those who love God and purify themselves before Him, God sometimes grants the privilege of seeing and knowing for themselves that He is God (Matt. 5:8; 3 Ne. 12:8; D&C 76:116–118; 93:1).

• My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me, Mark 15:34.
• These men are the servants of the most high God, Acts 16:17.
• We are the offspring of God, Acts 17:28–29.
• Thou shalt offer thy sacraments unto the Most High, D&C 59:10–12.
• Enoch beheld the spirits that God had created, Moses 6:36.
• Man of Holiness is his name, Moses 6:57.

GOD THE SON​

The God known as Jehovah is the Son, Jesus Christ (Isa. 12:2; 43:11; 49:26; 1 Cor. 10:1–4; 1 Tim. 1:1; Rev. 1:8; 2 Ne. 22:2). Jesus works under the direction of the Father and is in complete harmony with Him. All mankind are His brothers and sisters, for He is the eldest of the spirit children of Elohim. Some scripture references refer to Him by the word God. For example, the scripture says that “God created the heaven and the earth” (Gen. 1:1), but it was actually Jesus who was the Creator under the direction of God the Father (John 1:1–3, 10, 14; Heb. 1:1–2).

• The Lord identified himself as I AM, Ex. 3:13–16.
• I am the Lord [Jehovah], and beside me there is no savior, Isa. 43:11 (Isa. 45:21).
• I am the light of the world, John 8:12.
• Before Abraham was, I am, John 8:58.
• The Lord shall minister among men in a tabernacle of clay, Mosiah 3:5–10.
• Abinadi explained how Christ is the Father and the Son, Mosiah 15:1–4 (Ether 3:14).
• The Lord appeared to the brother of Jared, Ether 3.
• Listen to the words of Christ your Lord and your God, Moro. 8:8.
• Jehovah is the judge of the quick and the dead, Moro. 10:34.
• Jesus appeared to Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon, D&C 76:20, 23.
• The Lord Jehovah appeared in the Kirtland Temple, D&C 110:1–4.
• Jehovah spoke to Abraham, Abr. 1:16–19.
• Jesus appeared to Joseph Smith, JS—H 1:17.

GOD THE HOLY GHOST​

The Holy Ghost is also a God and is called the Holy Spirit, the Spirit, and the Spirit of God, among other similar names and titles. With the aid of the Holy Ghost, man can know the will of God the Father and know that Jesus is the Christ (1 Cor. 12:3).

• The Holy Ghost will teach you what you should say, Luke 12:12.
• The Holy Ghost is the Comforter, John 14:26 (John 16:7–15).
• Jesus gave commandments to the Apostles through the Holy Ghost, Acts 1:2.
• The Holy Ghost bears witness of God and Christ, Acts 5:29–32 (1 Cor. 12:3).
• The Holy Ghost also is a witness to us, Heb. 10:10–17.
• By the power of the Holy Ghost you may know the truth of all things, Moro. 10:5.
• The Holy Ghost is the spirit of revelation, D&C 8:2–3 (D&C 68:4).

It seems to me you wrote this thread to attack the beliefs of others, no?

 

[onefour1]

It seems to me you wrote this thread to attack the beliefs of others, no?

I wrote this thread because I came upon the video by Sean Finnegan and wondered how the Catholics would respond to it. Personally I don't agree with how the Trinity is defined in that I don't believe that God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are the same being. However, I am not in full agreement with Mr. Finnegan either. Mr. Finnegan presupposes that the Jews had the correct concept of God and that Jesus totally adhered to their belief because He agreed that God was one. I also don't agree with his "pronoun argument". In Genesis 1 God uses the pronouns "us" and "our" when describing how they would create mankind. Thus according to Genesis 1 and also John 1 there have always been more than one person and being in the Godhead. I bring all this up because I find it an interesting topic to discuss since many disagree on some of the points brought up in the creeds of the Catholic church. If you wish to describe it as an attack that is your perspective. I see a religious board as a place to discuss the differences all people have in their religions. I am curious how the Catholic Church came up with the idea that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are the same being.

 

[ding]

I wrote this thread because I came upon the video by Sean Finnegan and wondered how the Catholics would respond to it. Personally I don't agree with how the Trinity is defined in that I don't believe that God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are the same being. However, I am not in full agreement with Mr. Finnegan either. Mr. Finnegan presupposes that the Jews had the correct concept of God and that Jesus totally adhered to their belief because He agreed that God was one. I also don't agree with his "pronoun argument". In Genesis 1 God uses the pronouns "us" and "our" when describing how they would create mankind. Thus according to Genesis 1 and also John 1 there have always been more than one person and being in the Godhead. I bring all this up because I find it an interesting topic to discuss since many disagree on some of the points brought up in the creeds of the Catholic church. If you wish to describe it as an attack that is your perspective. I see a religious board as a place to discuss the differences all people have in their religions. I am curious how the Catholic Church came up with the idea that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are the same being.

Really? Because I think you posted it to build up your beliefs by attacking the beliefs of others.

 

[onefour1]

Really? Because I think you posted it to build up your beliefs by attacking the beliefs of others.

Well you can believe as you will. I do promote my own belief just as you do yours as you did in this statement: "LDS and JW's are Christians as much as Gnostic Christians were Christian, which they weren't." That sounds much more like an attack than asking how Catholics would respond to arguments against the Trinity.

 

[ding]

Well you can believe as you will. I do promote my own belief just as you do yours as you did in this statement: "LDS and JW's are Christians as much as Gnostic Christians were Christian, which they weren't." That sounds much more like an attack than asking how Catholics would respond to arguments against the Trinity.

Thank you. I will. As for my statement, that was a statement of fact. LDS, JW's and Gnostic Christians are not Christians. As for your argument for against believing in the Trinity, I really couldn't care less. Like I said before, the Trinity is not a mystery to be solved. It's a relationship to be entered into.

It's quite common for certain posters to tear down the beliefs of others to build their's up. It's called critical theory. Which is to criticize what you don't believe to arrive at what you do believe without ever having to examine what you believe. Most people don't even know they are doing it.

 

[onefour1]

Thank you. I will. As for my statement, that was a statement of fact. LDS, JW's and Gnostic Christians are not Christians. As for your argument for against believing in the Trinity, I really couldn't care less. Like I said before, the Trinity is not a mystery to be solved. It's a relationship to be entered into.

It's quite common for certain posters to tear down the beliefs of others to build their's up. It's called critical theory. Which is to criticize what you don't believe to arrive at what you do believe without ever having to examine what you believe. Most people don't even know they are doing it.

So this is your defense for believing that God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are the same being? Your hypocrisy is shining bright! You justify your attack on me by saying THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS is not Christian because it doesn't match your belief and then in the next breath you say, "It's quite common for certain posters to tear down the beliefs of others to build their's up." That is exactly what you are doing!!!!!

 

[ding]

So this is your defense for believing that God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are the same being? Your hypocrisy is shining bright! You justify your attack on me by saying THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS is not Christian because it doesn't match your belief and then in the next breath you say, "It's quite common for certain posters to tear down the beliefs of others to build their's up." That is exactly what you are doing!!!!!

I don't need a defense for my beliefs. Like I said before (twice) the Trinity is not a mystery to be solved. It's a relationship to be entered into. You seem to be hung up on the form of religion rather than the spirit of God.

I'm not tearing down your religion. If I were to do that you would know. Trust me... you don't want to see what that would look like. It wouldn't go well for you. I'm defending my faith. Your OP was an attack on the belief in the Trinity. So I think you should remove that log from your eye.

 

[onefour1]

If I were asked how I would respond to someone elses attack on my belief I would respond with a valid answer to the attack and and not feel offended that someone asked me to respond. I find it strange that one would attack the one asking what their response is and not respond to the actual attacker.

 

[Libby von H]

So you basically don't have a response regarding his 5 major problems.

Lady, the way to have a conversation is for the one complaining to state the complaint.
I am waiting.

 

[onefour1]

Lady, the way to have a conversation is for the one complaining to state the complaint.
I am waiting.

read all my posts!

 

[ding]

If I were asked how I would respond to someone elses attack on my belief I would respond with a valid answer to the attack and and not feel offended that someone asked me to respond. I find it strange that one would attack the one asking what their response is and not respond to the actual attacker.

My beliefs don't need defending. Why do you need to attack them?

Do you feel the same way about this?

Zone1 - Annihilating the Church of J.C. of LDS

https://cesletter.org/CES-Letter.pdf I have a perverse hobby, and I've indulged in it for many years. I enjoy reading about Joseph Smith, LDS history, and the LDS church (whatever it chooses to be called this week). Basically, I find it entertaining that so many apparently intelligent people...

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