Zone1 Mary's sinlessness

[ding]

Is that what I said? No.

Ding, you are a time wasting troll.

Actually I'm trying to show you to look at the full picture.

 

[Meriweather]

But for now I quickly looked up the original word translated as "highly favored" in most translations, in Strong's Concordance, and nowhere did it say sinless, or even imply sinlessness.

Kecharitōmenē, whose root is the verb (past perfect tense) charitoo, meaning the action of giving grace has already occurred. In the Bible, kecharitōmenē was applied to one person, Mary. Further, ‘kecharitōmenē’ was not giving a description of Mary, but the title of Mary.

Translations into another language are always difficult, not to mention awkward. A title of highly favored/one who in the past perfect sense has been endued with grace (full of grace), is not merely a description, but her title.

The best argument is, “Luke got it wrong.”

To sum up the rest of thread was a discussion whether someone filled with grace is capable of sin. hadit was saying that since sins are forgiven, based on forgiveness, people can stand before God filled with grace. The rebuttal is that one full of grace would reject sin instead of committing sin.

 

[BreezeWood]

If she wasn't raped, then she lied.

You do have a problem with basic logic, from time to time.

she was not raped and did not deny their pregnancy made through their own decision is the true opening scene of the 1st century, the repudiation of judaism and their false commandments.

the christian bible distorts the characterization for their own narrative in the 4th century and use throughout their bible for their own purposes.

 

[Mashmont]

Highly favored does not mean sinless.

And how can you even ask that question? The bible is crystal clear that ALL have sinned. Mary was not a deity, she was a human being. Highly favored because of her strong faith, yes. But that is not the same thing as perfect and sinless! Only God is.

Certainly highly favored, coming from God, means sinless. Anyhow, the RCC declared it so as a matter of faith and morals. That edict was verified by Mary herself at Lourdes.

 

[Dr.Destructo]

Some people seem to think that Mary was permiscuous.
In order to hide the fact, she made up a crazy story that some god came down and made her pregnant, when, in fact, it was just another man that was NOT her husband.

So, with this in mind, I'd say she was a HUGE sinner.

 

[BreezeWood]

Highly favored because of her strong faith, yes. But that is not the same thing as perfect and sinless! Only God is.

there is nothing perfect, those in the heavens are pure ...

mary's faith in herself not false judaism led to her pregnancy is the reason they were chosen by the heavens as examples of the true religion and goal reiterated at the time of noah reset from the very beginning.

 

[ninja007]

Once Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden; everyone born of man's seed is born in sin with a sin nature. Therefore they must be born again.

Mary was born in sin with a sin nature being born of man's seed.
Jesus was not born in sin with a sin nature, nor was he born of man's seed.

i know.

 

[ninja007]

Certainly highly favored, coming from God, means sinless. Anyhow, the RCC declared it so as a matter of faith and morals. That edict was verified by Mary herself at Lourdes.

Romans 3:23

New King James Version

​

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

doesnt say all but mary.

 

[ninja007]

Going to later translations, I note. Let's go with that. How does a sinful soul magnify the Lord?

Romans 3:23

King James Version

​

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

 

[Meriweather]

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

I understand. You give Paul's Biblical words more weight than you give the Biblical words of an angel and Mary. Yes, no debate that Mary, too, comes short of the glory of God.

 

[BreezeWood]

Yes, no debate that Mary, too, comes short of the glory of God.

and that is accomplished by a spirit ... by becoming pure is what jesus claimed as sinning no more - being sinless is the gory of the heavens and necessary for remission to the everlasting.

sadly for them what no christian, desert dweller will ever accomplish.

 

[hadit]

Kecharitōmenē, whose root is the verb (past perfect tense) charitoo, meaning the action of giving grace has already occurred. In the Bible, kecharitōmenē was applied to one person, Mary. Further, ‘kecharitōmenē’ was not giving a description of Mary, but the title of Mary.

Translations into another language are always difficult, not to mention awkward. A title of highly favored/one who in the past perfect sense has been endued with grace (full of grace), is not merely a description, but her title.

The best argument is, “Luke got it wrong.”

To sum up the rest of thread was a discussion whether someone filled with grace is capable of sin. hadit was saying that since sins are forgiven, based on forgiveness, people can stand before God filled with grace. The rebuttal is that one full of grace would reject sin instead of committing sin.

No, that does not rebut the condition of the person standing before God, fully forgiven. Is that person full of grace or not? You have not dealt with it, only kept going on about sins recently committed. Remember, I said consider the situation that doesn't matter how the sin was forgiven, whether immediately through grace (the Biblical position) or through several lifetimes of self-improvement in purgatory (the Catholic position). Either way, the person stands before God fully forgiven. Is that person full of grace?

If not, why not?
If so, Mary could have been a normal person devoted to God but a sinner who required a savior (that she said she had) and who was full of grace, forgiven because of faith.

 

[Meriweather]

No, that does not rebut the condition of the person standing before God, fully forgiven. Is that person full of grace or not? You have not dealt with it, only kept going on about sins recently committed. Remember, I said consider the situation that doesn't matter how the sin was forgiven, whether immediately through grace (the Biblical position) or through several lifetimes of self-improvement in purgatory (the Catholic position). Either way, the person stands before God fully forgiven. Is that person full of grace?

If not, why not?
If so, Mary could have been a normal person devoted to God but a sinner who required a savior (that she said she had) and who was full of grace, forgiven because of faith.

That belief puzzles me, most likely because I do not have a correct understanding of it?

What I am hearing (again, perhaps incorrectly?) that you sin, that sin is covered in Jesus blood due to your faith, God forgives it and you are full of grace. The sin is committed again, so rinse and repeat. All is covered up, all is forgiven, and you are full of grace.

Catholic teaching is that it is repentance for the forgiveness of sin. Repentance is defined as having changed one's heart and mind about repeating the sin, and one is contrite that sin was ever committed in the first place. God accepts the offering of a contrite heart. As you know, Catholic belief and teaching is that Jesus is fully present in the Eucharist, body, blood, and divinity. Just as physically, we are what we eat, spiritually, we are also we are what we eat. Through the Eucharist we are in Jesus and Jesus is in us. His healing power in the Eucharist forgives and brings healing power of our venial sins, is our strength to prevent their occurrence, and is also the power within so that, with his strength, we might avoid mortal sin. In and through the Eucharist, we become more like Jesus (our change of heart) resulting in less sin and fewer incidents of those sins we will be working on overcoming throughout our entire lives. It is through God's grace that these sins are corrected and avoided--not simply covered up. It is by God's grace we are sanctified and purified to the point we avoid sin before the fact.

It appears what you are saying to me is that Mary had to sin in order to receive any grace at all, because grace only comes through forgiveness? Meanwhile, I am saying to you, God filling Mary's soul with his grace at her conception, had her avoiding sin throughout her entire life.

 

[hadit]

That belief puzzles me, most likely because I do not have a correct understanding of it?

What I am hearing (again, perhaps incorrectly?) that you sin, that sin is covered in Jesus blood due to your faith, God forgives it and you are full of grace. The sin is committed again, so rinse and repeat. All is covered up, all is forgiven, and you are full of grace.

Catholic teaching is that it is repentance for the forgiveness of sin. Repentance is defined as having changed one's heart and mind about repeating the sin, and one is contrite that sin was ever committed in the first place. God accepts the offering of a contrite heart. As you know, Catholic belief and teaching is that Jesus is fully present in the Eucharist, body, blood, and divinity. Just as physically, we are what we eat, spiritually, we are also we are what we eat. Through the Eucharist we are in Jesus and Jesus is in us. His healing power in the Eucharist forgives and brings healing power of our venial sins, is our strength to prevent their occurrence, and is also the power within so that, with his strength, we might avoid mortal sin. In and through the Eucharist, we become more like Jesus (our change of heart) resulting in less sin and fewer incidents of those sins we will be working on overcoming throughout our entire lives. It is through God's grace that these sins are corrected and avoided--not simply covered up. It is by God's grace we are sanctified and purified to the point we avoid sin before the fact.

It appears what you are saying to me is that Mary had to sin in order to receive any grace at all, because grace only comes through forgiveness? Meanwhile, I am saying to you, God filling Mary's soul with his grace at her conception, had her avoiding sin throughout her entire life.

I am saying that person can be full of grace, even if they had sinned previously, that the verse you cite as proof of Mary's sinlessness doesn't have to mean that she was.

Romans 5-6:

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Once again, I ask, is the person standing before God who is fully forgiven of all sin full of grace or not?

 

[Meriweather]

Once again, I ask, is the person standing before God who is fully forgiven of all sin full of grace or not?

I thought you understood my stand. Fully forgiven, sins covered up, happened through the grace of God, but no, the individual is not then 'full' of grace until sins stops and the will of God is always the choice. He is simply full of forgiveness which is different (my opinion) than being full of grace.

 

[hadit]

I thought you understood my stand. Fully forgiven, sins covered up, happened through the grace of God, but no, the individual is not then 'full' of grace until sins stops and the will of God is always the choice. He is simply full of forgiveness which is different (my opinion) than being full of grace.

And I thought you understood what I was saying. OBVIOUSLY, if someone is standing before God being welcomed into His eternal presence, ALL SIN IS GONE, COMPLETELY. The person stands before God fully justified. Is that person full of grace? Just answer that question.

 

[Meriweather]

Just answer that question.

No. You are providing what ifs. Before death, did the person have a complete change of heart? Had the sins stopped? What was in his heart about not only God, but his fellow man? I want to know what was going on the minute he stood before God. From what I understand of your beliefs, as long as he believed in Jesus, he was fully forgiven, all sins and impurities were all covered up and God is blind to that individual's sinful nature. He only sees blood, and blood is pure so it matters not a whit what is under it, the greatest sins, the greatest impurities. In that case, while the blood may be full of grace, what is under it surely is not. Not if there has been no turning away from those sins and one approaches God with the attitude sins don't matter since they are fully covered up and forgiven.

Is that what you expect to happen when you stand before God? God is blind to the true you because all he sees is the blood of Christ and is blind to your actual choice of living in sin? Is one of us saying sin matters while the other one insists that sin doesn't matter, because it was forgiven by an action two thousand years ago?

 

[Mashmont]

Romans 3:23​

​

New King James Version​

​

​

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

doesnt say all but mary.

So Jesus sinned?

 

[hadit]

No. You are providing what ifs. Before death, did the person have a complete change of heart? Had the sins stopped? What was in his heart about not only God, but his fellow man? I want to know what was going on the minute he stood before God. From what I understand of your beliefs, as long as he believed in Jesus, he was fully forgiven, all sins and impurities were all covered up and God is blind to that individual's sinful nature. He only sees blood, and blood is pure so it matters not a whit what is under it, the greatest sins, the greatest impurities. In that case, while the blood may be full of grace, what is under it surely is not. Not if there has been no turning away from those sins and one approaches God with the attitude sins don't matter since they are fully covered up and forgiven.

Is that what you expect to happen when you stand before God? God is blind to the true you because all he sees is the blood of Christ and is blind to your actual choice of living in sin? Is one of us saying sin matters while the other one insists that sin doesn't matter, because it was forgiven by an action two thousand years ago?

You're straining to avoid the question. I say that a person is standing before God with all sin forgiven. It doesn't matter how that happened, it is the case. God is welcoming that person into His presence for eternity. Is that person full of grace or not?

 

[ninja007]

I understand. You give Paul's Biblical words more weight than you give the Biblical words of an angel and Mary. Yes, no debate that Mary, too, comes short of the glory of God.

THEY ARE NOT PAULS WORDS- THEY ARE THE HOLY SPIRITS, BTW MARY SAID HERSELF SHE NEEDED A SAVIOR.