Faith & the death penalty

[DriftingSand]

Yes, there is a very easy answer to this also, Drifting sand! Do not take the life of an innocent person and you will not have to fear the death penalty!

Ironically, the death penalty has the potential for taking innocent life. Imagine that!

On very rare occasions but such cases are under greater scrutiny than ever before and with the help of DNA the likelihood of an innocent person receiving the death penalty is next to nil.

 

[ChrisL]

Many Christians believe that faithfulness to the ministry of Jesus requires them to oppose capital punishment. Though they acknowledge that the Old Testament mandated this penalty for murder, they think Jesus changed everything. Typically, their view is that the harsh and mean God the Father of the Old Testament established execution, but the loving and kind God the Son of the New Testament abolished it. I'm pretty sure such people don't realize they're denying the Trinity when they say this.

The doctrine of the Trinity affirms the eternal unity of all three persons of the Godhead, but such a fundamental disagreement between the Son and the Father would rupture this unity. In fact, if Jesus had contradicted any of the Father's principles, let alone such a well-established one, that very disagreement would have immediately disproved His claims to be the divine Son.

A lot of peoples' disapproval of the DP has absolutely nothing to do with religion too, but more due to the facts about the death penalty, the expense of the automatic appeals process, the amount of time it takes, and the fact that there is always the possibility that we could be killing an innocent person.

Also, there are many of us who feel that giving the state that kind of power over us, the people, is just wrong. They should not be able to decide upon live or death for us, and even if it is a jury who ultimately decides, the process is initiated by the prosecutor for the state.

And yet these same "non-religious" folks have no problem putting unborn babies to death (at someone else's expense). The double standards of the secular community will never cease to amaze. Let's keep a hardened criminal alive while killing an innocent baby. Makes sense to me --- not.

That's not true. Some people who are against the DP are also against abortion, such as myself.

 

[ChrisL]

Yes, there is a very easy answer to this also, Drifting sand! Do not take the life of an innocent person and you will not have to fear the death penalty!

Ironically, the death penalty has the potential for taking innocent life. Imagine that!

On very rare occasions but such cases are under greater scrutiny than ever before and with the help of DNA the likelihood of an innocent person receiving the death penalty is next to nil.

There were two cases of forensic lab technicians being convicted for tampering with evidence just recently in my home state of Massachusetts. Granted, these were not death penalty cases, but the fact remains that we still have human beings handling the evidence, and mistakes are bound to happen.

 

[sealybobo]

The death penalty is okay in religion as long as you either don't believe in Jesus or you just don't bother with the New Testament.

Many Christians believe that faithfulness to the ministry of Jesus requires them to oppose capital punishment. Though they acknowledge that the Old Testament mandated this penalty for murder, they think Jesus changed everything. Typically, their view is that the harsh and mean God the Father of the Old Testament established execution, but the loving and kind God the Son of the New Testament abolished it. I'm pretty sure such people don't realize they're denying the Trinity when they say this.

The doctrine of the Trinity affirms the eternal unity of all three persons of the Godhead, but such a fundamental disagreement between the Son and the Father would rupture this unity. In fact, if Jesus had contradicted any of the Father's principles, let alone such a well-established one, that very disagreement would have immediately disproved His claims to be the divine Son.

A lot of peoples' disapproval of the DP has absolutely nothing to do with religion too, but more due to the facts about the death penalty, the expense of the automatic appeals process, the amount of time it takes, and the fact that there is always the possibility that we could be killing an innocent person.

Also, there are many of us who feel that giving the state that kind of power over us, the people, is just wrong. They should not be able to decide upon live or death for us, and even if it is a jury who ultimately decides, the process is initiated by the prosecutor for the state.

I agree. No doubt the death penalty as it is needs to be tossed out and redone. How do so many people who are innocent end up on death row? It should be 100% no question about it that you did it if you are going to be put to death.

And it should not take so long or cost so much.

They need to lay the person down on a table and decapitate them. No cruel or unusual suffering.

And it seems like the DP can sometimes be racist. Blacks get sentenced to death and whites get life. Not always but you know what I mean, right?

If you committed a horrible crime because you are a sick evil person who we will never let out, I don't see the point in keeping them alive. Have you ever seen what its like in prison for lifers? Tv, lift weights, free food and healthcare, friends (gangs), music, probably sex with shemales, etc. They got it too good. If someone is serving life, it should be no tv or radio, no cigarettes, no friends, basketball, etc. Otherwise after awhile they get use to it and its not really a punishment anymore. So no sense in giving murderers free room and board for life. If we aren't going to ever let you out, why not just get rid of you? Or put them to work.

 

[sealybobo]

Many Christians believe that faithfulness to the ministry of Jesus requires them to oppose capital punishment. Though they acknowledge that the Old Testament mandated this penalty for murder, they think Jesus changed everything. Typically, their view is that the harsh and mean God the Father of the Old Testament established execution, but the loving and kind God the Son of the New Testament abolished it. I'm pretty sure such people don't realize they're denying the Trinity when they say this.

The doctrine of the Trinity affirms the eternal unity of all three persons of the Godhead, but such a fundamental disagreement between the Son and the Father would rupture this unity. In fact, if Jesus had contradicted any of the Father's principles, let alone such a well-established one, that very disagreement would have immediately disproved His claims to be the divine Son.

A lot of peoples' disapproval of the DP has absolutely nothing to do with religion too, but more due to the facts about the death penalty, the expense of the automatic appeals process, the amount of time it takes, and the fact that there is always the possibility that we could be killing an innocent person.

Also, there are many of us who feel that giving the state that kind of power over us, the people, is just wrong. They should not be able to decide upon live or death for us, and even if it is a jury who ultimately decides, the process is initiated by the prosecutor for the state.

And yet these same "non-religious" folks have no problem putting unborn babies to death (at someone else's expense). The double standards of the secular community will never cease to amaze. Let's keep a hardened criminal alive while killing an innocent baby. Makes sense to me --- not.

If you don't see the difference between having an abortion and killing a baby then you are just a ******* retard.

And I'm not religious and I would kill every lifer in prison. I would go around and warn them that if I find them to be violin criminals who are not sorry for what they did and working on being good people, one day I just show up at their cell and shoot them in the back of the head while they are sleeping.

Life is not so precious that a woman can't have an abortion if she wants one. If you don't want one, don't have one douch bag.

 

[ChrisL]

Many Christians believe that faithfulness to the ministry of Jesus requires them to oppose capital punishment. Though they acknowledge that the Old Testament mandated this penalty for murder, they think Jesus changed everything. Typically, their view is that the harsh and mean God the Father of the Old Testament established execution, but the loving and kind God the Son of the New Testament abolished it. I'm pretty sure such people don't realize they're denying the Trinity when they say this.

The doctrine of the Trinity affirms the eternal unity of all three persons of the Godhead, but such a fundamental disagreement between the Son and the Father would rupture this unity. In fact, if Jesus had contradicted any of the Father's principles, let alone such a well-established one, that very disagreement would have immediately disproved His claims to be the divine Son.

A lot of peoples' disapproval of the DP has absolutely nothing to do with religion too, but more due to the facts about the death penalty, the expense of the automatic appeals process, the amount of time it takes, and the fact that there is always the possibility that we could be killing an innocent person.

Also, there are many of us who feel that giving the state that kind of power over us, the people, is just wrong. They should not be able to decide upon live or death for us, and even if it is a jury who ultimately decides, the process is initiated by the prosecutor for the state.

I agree. No doubt the death penalty as it is needs to be tossed out and redone. How do so many people who are innocent end up on death row? It should be 100% no question about it that you did it if you are going to be put to death.

And it should not take so long or cost so much.

They need to lay the person down on a table and decapitate them. No cruel or unusual suffering.

And it seems like the DP can sometimes be racist. Blacks get sentenced to death and whites get life. Not always but you know what I mean, right?

If you committed a horrible crime because you are a sick evil person who we will never let out, I don't see the point in keeping them alive. Have you ever seen what its like in prison for lifers? Tv, lift weights, free food and healthcare, friends (gangs), music, probably sex with shemales, etc. They got it too good. If someone is serving life, it should be no tv or radio, no cigarettes, no friends, basketball, etc. Otherwise after awhile they get use to it and its not really a punishment anymore. So no sense in giving murderers free room and board for life. If we aren't going to ever let you out, why not just get rid of you? Or put them to work.

There are some certain very extreme cases in which the death penalty could be used, such as serial killers. Some are just so far gone, we might actually be doing them a favor, I think, but I still don't like the state having the right to execute it's citizens when we could lock these people away from society using life without parole. The only problems I can see that creating would be overcrowding.

 

[sealybobo]

A lot of peoples' disapproval of the DP has absolutely nothing to do with religion too, but more due to the facts about the death penalty, the expense of the automatic appeals process, the amount of time it takes, and the fact that there is always the possibility that we could be killing an innocent person.

Also, there are many of us who feel that giving the state that kind of power over us, the people, is just wrong. They should not be able to decide upon live or death for us, and even if it is a jury who ultimately decides, the process is initiated by the prosecutor for the state.

And yet these same "non-religious" folks have no problem putting unborn babies to death (at someone else's expense). The double standards of the secular community will never cease to amaze. Let's keep a hardened criminal alive while killing an innocent baby. Makes sense to me --- not.

That's not true. Some people who are against the DP are also against abortion, such as myself.

And I don't think it is true to say that people who get abortions have "no problem" putting unborn babies to death. It is a very big/serious/sad decision women make. Just because that is true doesn't mean the right should be taken away.

In fact, many of those women who are picketing abortion clinics are also former customers of the abortion doctor. They feel guilty for their decision. Same way born agains are usually people who were at rock bottom when the found jesus and so they assume everyone is as big of a scum bag as they were before they found Jesus so they go around calling everyone else sinners when the fact is, they are the ones with all the demons.

THE PRO-CHOICE ACTION NETWORK

 

[ChrisL]

And yet these same "non-religious" folks have no problem putting unborn babies to death (at someone else's expense). The double standards of the secular community will never cease to amaze. Let's keep a hardened criminal alive while killing an innocent baby. Makes sense to me --- not.

That's not true. Some people who are against the DP are also against abortion, such as myself.

And I don't think it is true to say that people who get abortions have "no problem" putting unborn babies to death. It is a very big/serious/sad decision women make. Just because that is true doesn't mean the right should be taken away.

In fact, many of those women who are picketing abortion clinics are also former customers of the abortion doctor. They feel guilty for their decision. Same way born agains are usually people who were at rock bottom when the found jesus and so they assume everyone is as big of a scum bag as they were before they found Jesus so they go around calling everyone else sinners when the fact is, they are the ones with all the demons.

THE PRO-CHOICE ACTION NETWORK

Perhaps, and I can't say I know what their motivations are, but adoption is always an option for women who don't wish to become a mother and something that is not talked about NEARLY enough.

 

[Samson]

Just a question, if only God can judge, for those of faith, isn't the Death Penalty usurping God?

Aren't all Judges usurping Gawd?

Perhaps we should just do away with all judicial process.

 

[sealybobo]

A lot of peoples' disapproval of the DP has absolutely nothing to do with religion too, but more due to the facts about the death penalty, the expense of the automatic appeals process, the amount of time it takes, and the fact that there is always the possibility that we could be killing an innocent person.

Also, there are many of us who feel that giving the state that kind of power over us, the people, is just wrong. They should not be able to decide upon live or death for us, and even if it is a jury who ultimately decides, the process is initiated by the prosecutor for the state.

I agree. No doubt the death penalty as it is needs to be tossed out and redone. How do so many people who are innocent end up on death row? It should be 100% no question about it that you did it if you are going to be put to death.

And it should not take so long or cost so much.

They need to lay the person down on a table and decapitate them. No cruel or unusual suffering.

And it seems like the DP can sometimes be racist. Blacks get sentenced to death and whites get life. Not always but you know what I mean, right?

If you committed a horrible crime because you are a sick evil person who we will never let out, I don't see the point in keeping them alive. Have you ever seen what its like in prison for lifers? Tv, lift weights, free food and healthcare, friends (gangs), music, probably sex with shemales, etc. They got it too good. If someone is serving life, it should be no tv or radio, no cigarettes, no friends, basketball, etc. Otherwise after awhile they get use to it and its not really a punishment anymore. So no sense in giving murderers free room and board for life. If we aren't going to ever let you out, why not just get rid of you? Or put them to work.

There are some certain very extreme cases in which the death penalty could be used, such as serial killers. Some are just so far gone, we might actually be doing them a favor, I think, but I still don't like the state having the right to execute it's citizens when we could lock these people away from society using life without parole. The only problems I can see that creating would be overcrowding.

We can solve that problem by not putting people we are mad at in jail with people we are afraid of.

I wouldn't put a drug dealer in prison. I'd fine him 10,000 and I'd put him on parole until he pays off the debt. And I would monitor that person and make sure they have a job and they are not selling drugs anymore.

Even people who steal. Why not instead of putting them in jail, fine them $ and put them on probation. My friend is on probation for a felony and he has to pay every time he goes in. No reason to pay to put him in jail. The courts are harrassing the shit out of him and he can't wait to be off probation. He won't be doing that again. If he does he can then go to jail, but jail needs to be a last resort, and don't put non violent in with violent criminals.

 

[sealybobo]

That's not true. Some people who are against the DP are also against abortion, such as myself.

And I don't think it is true to say that people who get abortions have "no problem" putting unborn babies to death. It is a very big/serious/sad decision women make. Just because that is true doesn't mean the right should be taken away.

In fact, many of those women who are picketing abortion clinics are also former customers of the abortion doctor. They feel guilty for their decision. Same way born agains are usually people who were at rock bottom when the found jesus and so they assume everyone is as big of a scum bag as they were before they found Jesus so they go around calling everyone else sinners when the fact is, they are the ones with all the demons.

THE PRO-CHOICE ACTION NETWORK

Perhaps, and I can't say I know what their motivations are, but adoption is always an option for women who don't wish to become a mother and something that is not talked about NEARLY enough.

Lets see Chris. I could either go get an abortion and remove the seed or I could carry a ******* baby for 9 months and squeeze it through my vajajay and then give it up for adoption. Come on Chris. Which one would you pick if you were 17 years old and have your whole life ahead of you and you don't want a baby.

 

[ChrisL]

And I don't think it is true to say that people who get abortions have "no problem" putting unborn babies to death. It is a very big/serious/sad decision women make. Just because that is true doesn't mean the right should be taken away.

In fact, many of those women who are picketing abortion clinics are also former customers of the abortion doctor. They feel guilty for their decision. Same way born agains are usually people who were at rock bottom when the found jesus and so they assume everyone is as big of a scum bag as they were before they found Jesus so they go around calling everyone else sinners when the fact is, they are the ones with all the demons.

THE PRO-CHOICE ACTION NETWORK

Perhaps, and I can't say I know what their motivations are, but adoption is always an option for women who don't wish to become a mother and something that is not talked about NEARLY enough.

Lets see Chris. I could either go get an abortion and remove the seed or I could carry a ******* baby for 9 months and squeeze it through my vajajay and then give it up for adoption. Come on Chris. Which one would you pick if you were 17 years old and have your whole life ahead of you and you don't want a baby.

I really HATE to reveal personal information, but to hell with it, I was a teen mom. I thought long and hard about my options, and decided that I would not punish my unborn child for my own irresponsible behavior and that I made my bed, and now I should have to lie in it.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I can easily point to verses in the New Testament that support the death penalty.

They would be ?

Romans 13:3-4:

For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Didn't even break a sweat.

No. You clearly didn't or you would have found in Romans 12:

19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

Almost idiotic, but not quite. The verses you cite tell us not to take vengeance ourselves, and Romans 13 explains that God put people in charge to take vengeance on His behalf, but thanks for playing "I am so stupid I think I can outwit a ThD."

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Yes, there is a very easy answer to this also, Drifting sand! Do not take the life of an innocent person and you will not have to fear the death penalty!

Ironically, the death penalty has the potential for taking innocent life. Imagine that!

On very rare occasions but such cases are under greater scrutiny than ever before and with the help of DNA the likelihood of an innocent person receiving the death penalty is next to nil.

Next to nil is not good enough.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Perhaps, and I can't say I know what their motivations are, but adoption is always an option for women who don't wish to become a mother and something that is not talked about NEARLY enough.

Lets see Chris. I could either go get an abortion and remove the seed or I could carry a ******* baby for 9 months and squeeze it through my vajajay and then give it up for adoption. Come on Chris. Which one would you pick if you were 17 years old and have your whole life ahead of you and you don't want a baby.

I really HATE to reveal personal information, but to hell with it, I was a teen mom. I thought long and hard about my options, and decided that I would not punish my unborn child for my own irresponsible behavior and that I made my bed, and now I should have to lie in it.

What a wonderful decision you made and how wonderful this decision was what led to your discovering that children are a gift from God. Not a mistake. Your story blessed me, Chris. Thank you.

 

[Avatar4321]

The Mormon church denies the Doctrine of Christ. Only those who are born again can enter the kingdom of heaven. You cannot enter in otherwise. The matter of judging the twelve tribes of Israel and the world is not anything the Mormons will have any part in. The Scriptures are the established Word of God and define who is who. Not the book of Mormon.

That's quite a claim. Not relevant to the thread though. If you want to discuss the doctrine of Christ and what you think we deny for some reason, I'm more than happy to discuss it in another thread. But I'd rather keep this one about the fact that the scriptures clearly state the saints will judge the world.

It isn't a claim. It's a fact. It is most certainly relevant to the thread in that you included yourself - therein the Mormon church - to the judging of the twelve tribes and the world according to biblical scripture. No where in the bible is such a teaching found. I have every right to respond, Avatar.

As you made the claim, I corrected you on it which is what Christians must do. They must defend the faith against false doctrines not found in the Holy Bible. That is what I have done and now that I have done it there is no need for futher discussion. Good bye.

Back to addressing the OP. The truth is without judgment there would be no justice and truth would not be established.

I've provided multiple citations from the Bible showing that the Saints are going to judge the world. Did Paul lie? Did Christ lie? You claim to be denouncing false doctrine, yet of the two of us, I am the only who has cited the Bible.

And yes, you did make a claim. A blatantly false one. You claimed that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints denied the Doctrine of Christ. That's false. In fact, the Church of Jesus Christ is one of the few Churches that identifies and teaches the Doctrine of Christ in it's fulness. Particularly the part of the laying on of hands which most modern Churches ignore.

 

[Avatar4321]

Just a question, if only God can judge, for those of faith, isn't the Death Penalty usurping God?

Aren't all Judges usurping Gawd?

Perhaps we should just do away with all judicial process.

There are some who do take that attitude. And yet completely ignore that God called men and women to be judges over the House of Israel.

 

[sealybobo]

Perhaps, and I can't say I know what their motivations are, but adoption is always an option for women who don't wish to become a mother and something that is not talked about NEARLY enough.

Lets see Chris. I could either go get an abortion and remove the seed or I could carry a ******* baby for 9 months and squeeze it through my vajajay and then give it up for adoption. Come on Chris. Which one would you pick if you were 17 years old and have your whole life ahead of you and you don't want a baby.

I really HATE to reveal personal information, but to hell with it, I was a teen mom. I thought long and hard about my options, and decided that I would not punish my unborn child for my own irresponsible behavior and that I made my bed, and now I should have to lie in it.

Wow! I know I wouldn't do that. I'd either have an abortion or have the baby. I could never have a baby and give it up. I can't believe any woman can do that.

You know how people adopt a puppy and then take it back? I get so mad at those people. I don't see how they can send the little thing back. So sad. So cute.

So, I can't imagine birthing a son or daughter and then giving it up.

But yet I would have no problem having an abortion. Weird huh?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Lets see Chris. I could either go get an abortion and remove the seed or I could carry a ******* baby for 9 months and squeeze it through my vajajay and then give it up for adoption. Come on Chris. Which one would you pick if you were 17 years old and have your whole life ahead of you and you don't want a baby.

I really HATE to reveal personal information, but to hell with it, I was a teen mom. I thought long and hard about my options, and decided that I would not punish my unborn child for my own irresponsible behavior and that I made my bed, and now I should have to lie in it.

Wow! I know I wouldn't do that. I'd either have an abortion or have the baby. I could never have a baby and give it up. I can't believe any woman can do that.

You know how people adopt a puppy and then take it back? I get so mad at those people. I don't see how they can send the little thing back. So sad. So cute.

So, I can't imagine birthing a son or daughter and then giving it up.

But yet I would have no problem having an abortion. Weird huh?

Definitely weird, especially that you would post this. Does it make you feel better to judge other people?

 

[ChrisL]

Lets see Chris. I could either go get an abortion and remove the seed or I could carry a ******* baby for 9 months and squeeze it through my vajajay and then give it up for adoption. Come on Chris. Which one would you pick if you were 17 years old and have your whole life ahead of you and you don't want a baby.

I really HATE to reveal personal information, but to hell with it, I was a teen mom. I thought long and hard about my options, and decided that I would not punish my unborn child for my own irresponsible behavior and that I made my bed, and now I should have to lie in it.

Wow! I know I wouldn't do that. I'd either have an abortion or have the baby. I could never have a baby and give it up. I can't believe any woman can do that.

You know how people adopt a puppy and then take it back? I get so mad at those people. I don't see how they can send the little thing back. So sad. So cute.

So, I can't imagine birthing a son or daughter and then giving it up.

But yet I would have no problem having an abortion. Weird huh?

Lol! Why would you assume that I gave my son up for adoption. Just because I mentioned that adoption is a viable option for some? Good God, well, FYI, I kept my son.

That's like saying, "well, I don't want to have to go through any kind of pain whatsoever, so I would rather end this child's life for my own sake." Yuck, I'm sorry, but I find that utterly disgusting and despicable.