Faith & the death penalty

[Sallow]

Just a question, if only God can judge, for those of faith, isn't the Death Penalty usurping God?

From the outside looking in?

God kills humans.

Therefore it's becoming more godly to follow suit.

Which is why religion is so awful.

 

[PostmodernProph]

Therein disproving your theory that they would not have the opportunity to repent.

????.....how does that disprove my theory?......if she had been executed after five years on death row instead of fourteen is it your argument she would have repented in five years instead of fourteen?.....if someone were sentenced to life in prison instead of death, might they not have another forty years to repent?......

should we execute everyone within six weeks of conviction so we can speed up their repentance?.....

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

the death penalty is not a judgement - it is a response to a heinous crime using facts and evidence to determine a verdict.

abortion likewise is not a judgement but a response to the reason for its implementation ... fundamentally simply a choice.

.

I disagree completely. It is human beings judging whether or not another human being should live or die in both situations. You can make it sound as complicated as you want, but it's really quite simple.

The death penalty is a judgment. God has appointed judges, courts, law and order in the land and establishes every good thing. God is the one who appoints leaders, the one who appoints kings, there is much precedent in history to prove out the point. God allows both wicked kings and just kings so that He can try the hearts of men and bring judgment in certain matters where the people have been living in rebellion. The same is true of judges, there are just judges and unjust judges yet God is in control of the outcome. Nothing is out of His control. With that said, If God could not use men and women as judges to rule matters justly, according to the guidelines of their society, of their established rule of law in their own specific kingdoms, lands, and so forth, then how would God be able to establish rule and order?

Use this board for an example! If the owners did not have moderators and adminstrators enforcing the rules and guidelines fairly and equally to one and all what kind of order would that be? What would happen here if some people did whatever they felt like doing and said whatever they felt like saying, harrassing and using personal attacks against others continually without a single consequence resulting in the matter? I tell you the truth! It could not prosper!

Societies prosper where the the scales of justice are balanced and freedom reigns within the guidelines of decent human behavior that does not go about seeking to infringe on the lives of others - therein breaking the laws of the land. It is that way with all societies. Too much of the law and the people are crushed underneath the weight of it - such as dictatorships do - too little of the law and the people are burdened by those who refuse to abide to it and suffer the lawlessness deeds of others. The scales of justice should be balanced throughout all societies so that the people dwell in peace and safety. This is where freedom flourishes and the people prosper. This is how God establishes His rule. Through human vessels! It works!

 

[ChrisL]

the death penalty is not a judgement - it is a response to a heinous crime using facts and evidence to determine a verdict.

abortion likewise is not a judgement but a response to the reason for its implementation ... fundamentally simply a choice.

.

I disagree completely. It is human beings judging whether or not another human being should live or die in both situations. You can make it sound as complicated as you want, but it's really quite simple.

The death penalty is a judgment. God has appointed judges, courts, law and order in the land and establishes every good thing. God is the one who appoints leaders, the one who appoints kings, there is much precedent in history to prove out the point. God allows both wicked kings and just kings so that He can try the hearts of men and bring judgment in certain matters where the people have been living in rebellion. The same is true of judges, there are just judges and unjust judges yet God is in control of the outcome. Nothing is out of His control. With that said, If God could not use men and women as judges to rule matters justly, according to the guidelines of their society, of their established rule of law in their own specific kingdoms, lands, and so forth, then how would God be able to establish rule and order?

Use this board for an example! If the owners did not have moderators and adminstrators enforcing the rules and guidelines fairly and equally to one and all what kind of order would that be? What would happen here if some people did whatever they felt like doing and said whatever they felt like saying, harrassing and using personal attacks against others continually without a single consequence resulting in the matter? I tell you the truth! It could not prosper!

Societies prosper where the the scales of justice are balanced and freedom reigns within the guidelines of decent human behavior that does not go about seeking to infringe on the lives of others - therein breaking the laws of the land. It is that way with all societies. Too much of the law and the people are crushed underneath the weight of it - such as dictatorships do - too little of the law and the people are burdened by those who refuse to abide to it and suffer the lawlessness deeds of others. The scales of justice should be balanced throughout all societies so that the people dwell in peace and safety. This is where freedom flourishes and the people prosper. This is how God establishes His rule. Through human vessels! It works!

Yeah sure, whatever you say.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

where does it say that only God can judge? The scriptures are clear that the Saints are going to judge the world.

??...I'm sure that you don't believe that on judgement day we're going to vote on who is in heaven with us......

Didn't say anything about voting. We are going to judge though.

The Mormon church denies the Doctrine of Christ. Only those who are born again can enter the kingdom of heaven. You cannot enter in otherwise. The matter of judging the twelve tribes of Israel and the world is not anything the Mormons will have any part in. The Scriptures are the established Word of God and define who is who. Not the book of Mormon.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

I disagree completely. It is human beings judging whether or not another human being should live or die in both situations. You can make it sound as complicated as you want, but it's really quite simple.

The death penalty is a judgment. God has appointed judges, courts, law and order in the land and establishes every good thing. God is the one who appoints leaders, the one who appoints kings, there is much precedent in history to prove out the point. God allows both wicked kings and just kings so that He can try the hearts of men and bring judgment in certain matters where the people have been living in rebellion. The same is true of judges, there are just judges and unjust judges yet God is in control of the outcome. Nothing is out of His control. With that said, If God could not use men and women as judges to rule matters justly, according to the guidelines of their society, of their established rule of law in their own specific kingdoms, lands, and so forth, then how would God be able to establish rule and order?

Use this board for an example! If the owners did not have moderators and adminstrators enforcing the rules and guidelines fairly and equally to one and all what kind of order would that be? What would happen here if some people did whatever they felt like doing and said whatever they felt like saying, harrassing and using personal attacks against others continually without a single consequence resulting in the matter? I tell you the truth! It could not prosper!

Societies prosper where the the scales of justice are balanced and freedom reigns within the guidelines of decent human behavior that does not go about seeking to infringe on the lives of others - therein breaking the laws of the land. It is that way with all societies. Too much of the law and the people are crushed underneath the weight of it - such as dictatorships do - too little of the law and the people are burdened by those who refuse to abide to it and suffer the lawlessness deeds of others. The scales of justice should be balanced throughout all societies so that the people dwell in peace and safety. This is where freedom flourishes and the people prosper. This is how God establishes His rule. Through human vessels! It works!

Yeah sure, whatever you say.

Not what I have said. It is what Scripture says. See the book of Proverbs. It is all in there. It is the Book wise men read and obey. Thank you for reading my response.

 

[Avatar4321]

??...I'm sure that you don't believe that on judgement day we're going to vote on who is in heaven with us......

Didn't say anything about voting. We are going to judge though.

The Mormon church denies the Doctrine of Christ. Only those who are born again can enter the kingdom of heaven. You cannot enter in otherwise. The matter of judging the twelve tribes of Israel and the world is not anything the Mormons will have any part in. The Scriptures are the established Word of God and define who is who. Not the book of Mormon.

That's quite a claim. Not relevant to the thread though. If you want to discuss the doctrine of Christ and what you think we deny for some reason, I'm more than happy to discuss it in another thread. But I'd rather keep this one about the fact that the scriptures clearly state the saints will judge the world.

 

[BreezeWood]

the death penalty is not a judgement - it is a response to a heinous crime using facts and evidence to determine a verdict.

abortion likewise is not a judgement but a response to the reason for its implementation ... fundamentally simply a choice.

.

I disagree completely. It is human beings judging whether or not another human being should live or die in both situations. You can make it sound as complicated as you want, but it's really quite simple.

it is not: "human beings judging whether or not another human being should live or die" -


the verdict is a decision not a judgement, based on the reason for the occurrence and the applicable laws..

where the reason is in doubt, spousal abuse that leads to the taking of a life by a woman against an abusive husband the "judgement" if necessary is based on guilt or innocence not the outcome of the verdict, death if guilty.

Judgement is a religious concoction to intercede where they do not belong - such as abortion.

.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Didn't say anything about voting. We are going to judge though.

The Mormon church denies the Doctrine of Christ. Only those who are born again can enter the kingdom of heaven. You cannot enter in otherwise. The matter of judging the twelve tribes of Israel and the world is not anything the Mormons will have any part in. The Scriptures are the established Word of God and define who is who. Not the book of Mormon.

That's quite a claim. Not relevant to the thread though. If you want to discuss the doctrine of Christ and what you think we deny for some reason, I'm more than happy to discuss it in another thread. But I'd rather keep this one about the fact that the scriptures clearly state the saints will judge the world.

It isn't a claim. It's a fact. It is most certainly relevant to the thread in that you included yourself - therein the Mormon church - to the judging of the twelve tribes and the world according to biblical scripture. No where in the bible is such a teaching found. I have every right to respond, Avatar.

As you made the claim, I corrected you on it which is what Christians must do. They must defend the faith against false doctrines not found in the Holy Bible. That is what I have done and now that I have done it there is no need for futher discussion. Good bye.

Back to addressing the OP. The truth is without judgment there would be no justice and truth would not be established.

 

[DriftingSand]

the death penalty is not a judgement - it is a response to a heinous crime using facts and evidence to determine a verdict.

abortion likewise is not a judgement but a response to the reason for its implementation ... fundamentally simply a choice.

.

I disagree completely. It is human beings judging whether or not another human being should live or die in both situations. You can make it sound as complicated as you want, but it's really quite simple.

The USA is ruled by law. We're a Constitutional Republic. The law says that murder is wrong and that it is punishable by death. A murderer sentences himself to death when he willingly breaks that law knowing very well that death is the penalty. Judges and juries simply help the process along.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Yes, there is a very easy answer to this also, Drifting sand! Do not take the life of an innocent person and you will not have to fear the death penalty!

 

[DriftingSand]

From "Got Questions" (.org)

How should a Christian view the death penalty? First, we must remember that God has instituted capital punishment in His Word; therefore, it would be presumptuous of us to think that we could institute a higher standard. God has the highest standard of any being; He is perfect. This standard applies not only to us but to Himself. Therefore, He loves to an infinite degree, and He has mercy to an infinite degree. We also see that He has wrath to an infinite degree, and it is all maintained in a perfect balance.

Second, we must recognize that God has given government the authority to determine when capital punishment is due (Genesis 9:6; Romans 13:1-7). It is unbiblical to claim that God opposes the death penalty in all instances. Christians should never rejoice when the death penalty is employed, but at the same time, Christians should not fight against the government’s right to execute the perpetrators of the most evil of crimes.

What does the Bible say about the death penalty / capital punishment?

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Great answer, Drifting Sand! I also agree that Christians should never rejoice when a death penalty is given. That is a one soul lost for all eternity if they have not repented prior to the execution. How awful to consider that persons fate! That is nothing to rejoice over. Not at all. Very sad!

 

[PratchettFan]

Funny, I don't recall being upset.

If you have a problem with what it says, take it up with the author.

Except no one has a problem with what the author said, only your attempts to wrest them out of context.

I've provided many scriptures where Christ explicitly commands us to judge or where He clearly states that God is not the only one involved with judging. You've not even attempted to discuss them. You just say take up your verses with the author.

Why should we ignore that the saints will judge the world? Or the commands for us to judge righteously? Or for the commands to seek justice?

I have not attempted to wrest them out of context. All I have done is present them. I have not interpreted them or attempted to tell anyone what they mean. I have no need to discuss them because they say what they say. If you don't like what they say and want to interpret them so they say something else, that is up to you. I have told you to do nothing, I have told you to think nothing.

If you think you should judge, then judge. If you think this is supported by the Bible, then proceed with that. I haven't suggested you should do anything else. The only thing I have done is present verses which someone said did not exist. They do exist and they are quite straightforward. All arguments have been made against them because I have not offered a single opinion on them. I don't have to. They say what they say.

But let me just ask you. When Jesus said to judge not, do you think he didn't really mean it?

 

[ChrisL]

the death penalty is not a judgement - it is a response to a heinous crime using facts and evidence to determine a verdict.

abortion likewise is not a judgement but a response to the reason for its implementation ... fundamentally simply a choice.

.

I disagree completely. It is human beings judging whether or not another human being should live or die in both situations. You can make it sound as complicated as you want, but it's really quite simple.

it is not: "human beings judging whether or not another human being should live or die" -


the verdict is a decision not a judgement, based on the reason for the occurrence and the applicable laws..

where the reason is in doubt, spousal abuse that leads to the taking of a life by a woman against an abusive husband the "judgement" if necessary is based on guilt or innocence not the outcome of the verdict, death if guilty.

Judgement is a religious concoction to intercede where they do not belong - such as abortion.

.

I'm sorry, but I disagree. I think it is judging, and I think it is arrogant to make someone the "decider" on who lives and who dies.

The death penalty is extremely expensive, time consuming, and very arbitrarily applied. For instance, a 20-year-old African American kills 3 gangbangers in a gang war and gets the death penalty. Jeffrey Dahmer kills and eats, what, like 12 people, and gets LWOP.

 

[ChrisL]

the death penalty is not a judgement - it is a response to a heinous crime using facts and evidence to determine a verdict.

abortion likewise is not a judgement but a response to the reason for its implementation ... fundamentally simply a choice.

.

I disagree completely. It is human beings judging whether or not another human being should live or die in both situations. You can make it sound as complicated as you want, but it's really quite simple.

The USA is ruled by law. We're a Constitutional Republic. The law says that murder is wrong and that it is punishable by death. A murderer sentences himself to death when he willingly breaks that law knowing very well that death is the penalty. Judges and juries simply help the process along.

You are wrong because the death penalty is outlawed in several states. Let's not also forget that we are amongst the likes of Afghanistan and Iran with our barbarbic death penalty.

Check it out! We should be proud, right?

http://www.theatlantic.com/internat...which-countries-use-the-death-penalty/241490/

The club of prisoner-executing nations is an inauspicious one. You've got the world's great dictatorships and autocracies (Iran, Zimbabwe, China, North Korea, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Libya, Egypt, Ethiopia, Cuba, Belarus), it's most failed and failing states (Somalia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Sudan, Congo, Chad, Yemen, Guinea, Bangladesh), not to mention the entire Middle East save Israel.

So who's left? Which countries use the death penalty but are neither among the world's most failed states nor its most autocratic? The outliers make a strange list: India, Japan, Nigeria, Uganda, Botswana, Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, Vietnam, Kuwait, Oman, Lebanon, Jordan, the United Arab Emirates, Iraq and the United States. This is our league of capital punishment nations. Whatever the legal, ethical, social, and political arguments for and against the death penalty, its role in U.S. foreign policy, especially at a time when we are trying to convince leaders around the world to loosen restrictions and democratize, can be burdensome.

 

[sealybobo]

The death penalty is okay in religion as long as you either don't believe in Jesus or you just don't bother with the New Testament.

Many Christians believe that faithfulness to the ministry of Jesus requires them to oppose capital punishment. Though they acknowledge that the Old Testament mandated this penalty for murder, they think Jesus changed everything. Typically, their view is that the harsh and mean God the Father of the Old Testament established execution, but the loving and kind God the Son of the New Testament abolished it. I'm pretty sure such people don't realize they're denying the Trinity when they say this.

The doctrine of the Trinity affirms the eternal unity of all three persons of the Godhead, but such a fundamental disagreement between the Son and the Father would rupture this unity. In fact, if Jesus had contradicted any of the Father's principles, let alone such a well-established one, that very disagreement would have immediately disproved His claims to be the divine Son.

 

[ChrisL]

The death penalty is okay in religion as long as you either don't believe in Jesus or you just don't bother with the New Testament.

Many Christians believe that faithfulness to the ministry of Jesus requires them to oppose capital punishment. Though they acknowledge that the Old Testament mandated this penalty for murder, they think Jesus changed everything. Typically, their view is that the harsh and mean God the Father of the Old Testament established execution, but the loving and kind God the Son of the New Testament abolished it. I'm pretty sure such people don't realize they're denying the Trinity when they say this.

The doctrine of the Trinity affirms the eternal unity of all three persons of the Godhead, but such a fundamental disagreement between the Son and the Father would rupture this unity. In fact, if Jesus had contradicted any of the Father's principles, let alone such a well-established one, that very disagreement would have immediately disproved His claims to be the divine Son.

A lot of peoples' disapproval of the DP has absolutely nothing to do with religion too, but more due to the facts about the death penalty, the expense of the automatic appeals process, the amount of time it takes, and the fact that there is always the possibility that we could be killing an innocent person.

Also, there are many of us who feel that giving the state that kind of power over us, the people, is just wrong. They should not be able to decide upon live or death for us, and even if it is a jury who ultimately decides, the process is initiated by the prosecutor for the state.

 

[ChrisL]

Yes, there is a very easy answer to this also, Drifting sand! Do not take the life of an innocent person and you will not have to fear the death penalty!

Ironically, the death penalty has the potential for taking innocent life. Imagine that!

 

[DriftingSand]

The death penalty is okay in religion as long as you either don't believe in Jesus or you just don't bother with the New Testament.

Many Christians believe that faithfulness to the ministry of Jesus requires them to oppose capital punishment. Though they acknowledge that the Old Testament mandated this penalty for murder, they think Jesus changed everything. Typically, their view is that the harsh and mean God the Father of the Old Testament established execution, but the loving and kind God the Son of the New Testament abolished it. I'm pretty sure such people don't realize they're denying the Trinity when they say this.

The doctrine of the Trinity affirms the eternal unity of all three persons of the Godhead, but such a fundamental disagreement between the Son and the Father would rupture this unity. In fact, if Jesus had contradicted any of the Father's principles, let alone such a well-established one, that very disagreement would have immediately disproved His claims to be the divine Son.

A lot of peoples' disapproval of the DP has absolutely nothing to do with religion too, but more due to the facts about the death penalty, the expense of the automatic appeals process, the amount of time it takes, and the fact that there is always the possibility that we could be killing an innocent person.

Also, there are many of us who feel that giving the state that kind of power over us, the people, is just wrong. They should not be able to decide upon live or death for us, and even if it is a jury who ultimately decides, the process is initiated by the prosecutor for the state.

And yet these same "non-religious" folks have no problem putting unborn babies to death (at someone else's expense). The double standards of the secular community will never cease to amaze. Let's keep a hardened criminal alive while killing an innocent baby. Makes sense to me --- not.