Fair Tax

[Mr. Peepers]

Take a shitty job while finding your differential

But, but... you just said a poor person should not do this. They should not take "just any job" but should shop around, do research blah blah blah. You want to know what I want? I want employers to "do the right thing" by their employees for a change... you know, the people they exploit to make their millions. That's what I want.

Oh, and you don't have to make a 6 figure salary to have "security".

 

[Oldandtired]

. Take a shitty job while finding your differential....and be prepard to take chances....

Shitty jobs like all the summer work I took while in college?
You know while finding my "differential" which happens to be a pretty fair ability to find solutions to pretty much any problem using math.
Except I don't know jack about marketing. So the guy who can sell sell sell, makes money. Even if his company does not. And when I get called into consult I find the problem; the marketing department has no clue about the true cost of manufacture and so bid on the contracts that make them the most personal money without a care for the company - I suggest a reconfiguration of bidding policies which makes the company again prosperous and since I'm an outside hire, I get beans while the marketing guys take credit for saving the company. Sounds real fair to me. I should have asked for a percentage, is what you will say, but I believe in giving an honest return for my pay. Something you clearly don't understand.

I took a chance, one designed to help a nation short on technical skills. And got shafted by people born with a silver spoon.

Youy made a valid decision...and a noble decision...but not a smart decision. We all have done it. Itis those of us that learn from the bad decision that rebounds.

Sales? horrible insecure life. Not worth it to me.

Service? That is everything.

You know alot about engineering? You can talk the talk? Then you can make a very handsome living working from your home...right off the bat. You may not enjoy it, but it will get you going....but something tells me you willl love it.

But first you need to stop feeling sorry for yourself and, instead get angry at yourself for wasting soi much time blaming others.

As for shitty jobs...I was referring to whatever youn eed to do to eat while finding your niche.

You need to stop thinking in the box and satrt thinking out of the box.

Where do you live?

 

[Oldandtired]

Take a shitty job while finding your differential

But, but... you just said a poor person should not do this. They should not take "just any job" but should shop around, do research blah blah blah. You want to know what I want? I want employers to "do the right thing" by their employees for a change... you know, the people they exploit to make their millions. That's what I want.

Oh, and you don't have to make a 6 figure salary to have "security".

Peepers...you can have a 6 figure job and have NO security. You are not getting it or I am not articulating it properly.

As for shitty job...I am referring to any job that gets you by WHILE YOU ARE FINDING YOUR CAREER.

I am not saying take a shitty job as your career.

If you want advice, show me you want it. If you simply want to be right, then lets part ways now and forget it.;

 

[Mr. Peepers]

Hey Peepers....hw old are you? Are you employed? If yes, are you happy? Are you secure?If you are not happy or secure, you ready for a change? You prepared to go to the next level? You prepared to learn from your mistakes?
You ready for some ideas?

1. I'm 37
2. Yes, full time w/full benefits
3. Not with my job, no.
4. We import materials for car makers, so security... yeah right.
5. If the next level involves me sitting in another soul-sucking gray cube while my life melts away, no thanks. I'd rather kill myself.
6. I did everything "right". Went to school, got in entry level. Moved to NYC when I had enough experience, etc...
7. I am actually thinking of moving abroad, or starting an organic goat cheese farm on my grandparents land. I may not make any money, but at least I'll be doing something tangible.

 

[Oldandtired]

Hey Peepers....hw old are you? Are you employed? If yes, are you happy? Are you secure?If you are not happy or secure, you ready for a change? You prepared to go to the next level? You prepared to learn from your mistakes?
You ready for some ideas?

1. I'm 37
2. Yes, full time w/full benefits
3. Not with my job, no.
4. We import materials for car makers, so security... yeah right.
5. If the next level involves me sitting in another soul-sucking gray cube while my life melts away, no thanks. I'd rather kill myself.
6. I did everything "right". Went to school, got in entry level. Moved to NYC when I had enough experience, etc...
7. I am actually thinking of moving abroad, or starting an organic goat cheese farm on my grandparents land. I may not make any money, but at least I'll be doing something tangible.

If you see the next level as more of the same, then you are already on the right track of wanting a change. The mistake many make is they become complacent...and by the time they realize they have no career, it is too late.

Yes, you did everything right....but one thing.....you opted to be an employee for the rest of your life...or at least until you were 37. At 27 you should hav been looking at the next level...but you are still young and you still have time...but you first need to get that chip off your shoulder.

You cater to one industry...so if that industry fails, you fail. That too is a mistake. You are counting on an industry youhave noi control over for personal success. I am sure you see the issues with that.

We are in a recession...that is a pronblem for most as there are no jobs out there. Is this true? Actually, it is far from true.

SO what needs to be done? Research who is hiring...not companies...industries.....and what for? Not to get a job WITH THEM...but to start a company servicing them.

For example...I asked my son to get back to me with what industries are hiring. He went on Monster and found several....real estate law being one of them.....Bank attorneys to be exact....the ones who oversee the legal integrity of re-fi's.

So what do they need I asked him? He did his research. They need closing agents that attend closings....Independant contractors that are hired for each closing.

How can you find them so you can supply them. I asked him. He found web sites that have databases of closing agents.

Business plan (basic) and some calls to bank attorneys...and he contracts out about 300 a month at a profit of 20 bucks each.....

I can go on....but that is what thinking out of the box does for you.

You want ideas? I have plenty of them.

I have a great one for Charles if he wants it.

 

[Nosmo King]

So it's technology that's responsible for the disparity between executive pay and worker pay! Well! I feel great about that! I suppose it's technology that made it acceptable, possible and laudable that executives can bring home 20, 40, 80, 250 times what the workers make. Whew! That's fantastic! I'm so happy for those poor, overworked executives!

technology! and I didn't want to see it! What a bright future this mindset proffers! Especially to middle class workers. They can make less, their bosses (who have yet to take advantage of this grand technology apparently lest they not be so overworked)) can continue to rake it in!

Yes, the Boss Caste, and make no mistake this is a caste system wherein birth (or at least patronage) is of vital importance, always manages to make claims of how they made the "better choices" but I often wonder when you get to choose your parents? Naturally I am more familiar with engineers and programmers than MBA's and executives, so I can only speak of what I, from outside the executive circle, observe. Well and what happens with engineers and programmers from a somewhat closer perspective.
The big bosses come in sometime around 9:00 and leave by 3:00, If something is a huge rush then they make sure to stay until 4:00 before calling it a day. Meanwhile the engineering (or programming) staff, who was reduced from 18 to 12 because they should "work smarter not harder" is forced to stay until 9:00 PM, even though they were at work by 8:00 AM, because there are not enough to do all the work. The engineers and programmers are expected to keep certifying in every new system or technology which the company wants to use or develop, as well as being prepared for going to another company when the one you are in decides the remaining engineers need to get smarter yet, and you get the axe for no other reason than an exec needs to justify their raise.

Now consider what the engineer did to get the job in the first place - college for four years, perhaps a masters (another year or two) - and hwat they are getting paid. Only a bit more than machinists and toolmakers of similar experience, btu the hourly guys get overtime when they work more than 40 hours while the engineer is salaries and regularly expected to put in 50+ hours a week, what with green time and comp time and mandatory minimums and of course the work has to get done so when the department is understaffed, which it always is because it is better in a lean job market to work the workers to death than to hire enough, the engineer gets worked 60+ hours a week and is making less than an hourly guy with a smaller skill set. And a LOT less than the exec who does not work more than 40 hours a week. Then having put in 60 hours at work, the engineer has to put in another 10 to 20 hours keeping current.

But hey everyone made their choices and it is clear, to listen to the Execs talk, that the only sensible choice for anyone would be to take a BBA and go into management, then move up to Exec, then rake in the money they "Earned" with their tough degree and "years" of working as middle management. Middle management who generally makes about as much as engineers of similar experience might I add, while the engineer, gets caught in a tight market. Take whatever job you can get or your expensive, (but it must have been sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much easier than a BBA) Engineering degree is just so much paper. Two years out of college and still looking for work is the same as not having a degree, so you MUST take whatever is offered. You don't have the luxury of being in a field like business where the technology does not render the degree useless, no you were foolish enough to pursue a technical degree.

The engineers and programmers should all walk out of their jobs en masse across the country and tell the execs to do it themselves.
Or pay fair wages.

Yes...they can do that if they wish.
Personal choioces...personal responsibility.
Until the proposed healthcare bill...no one can tell you that you must do anything. You have the right to make your own decisions...and reap the rewards or suffer the consequences.

Do you have any respect for folks who work with their hands? Those who actually produce the goods so vital to our economy and lifestyle, the carpenter, the pipe fitter, the furniture maker, the butcher, the baker or the candlestick maker?

Seems in some quarters, these folks are doomed to suffer the consequences. Meanwhile, the banker, the broker, the executive who makes the decision to take the means of production off shore are praised as new Caesars and courageous entrepreneurs. Ask me, they're crooks.

 

[Mr. Peepers]

Yes, you did everything right....but one thing.....you opted to be an employee for the rest of your life...or at least until you were 37. At 27 you should hav been looking at the next level...but you are still young and you still have time...but you first need to get that chip off your shoulder.

You cater to one industry...so if that industry fails, you fail. That too is a mistake. You are counting on an industry youhave noi control over for personal success. I am sure you see the issues with that.

For one, I work for a huge Japanese trading company - the NYC headquarters, so car parts materials is just one dept. of hundreds- I am the only person in the dept other than my boss. I do everything from orders to invoicing to wires. You name it. Two, they only promote from Japan. They did not tell me this when I was hired - why would they? Plus, I pretty much had to take the first job offered. Three, I do not have a chip on my shouder, I am just sick to death of watching the war on labor and listening to business owners and executives take no responsibility.

 

[Oldandtired]

Yes, you did everything right....but one thing.....you opted to be an employee for the rest of your life...or at least until you were 37. At 27 you should hav been looking at the next level...but you are still young and you still have time...but you first need to get that chip off your shoulder.

You cater to one industry...so if that industry fails, you fail. That too is a mistake. You are counting on an industry youhave noi control over for personal success. I am sure you see the issues with that.

For one, I work for a huge Japanese trading company - the NYC headquarters, so car parts materials is just one dept. of hundreds- I am the only person in the dept other than my boss. I do everything from orders to invoicing to wires. You name it. Two, they only promote from Japan. They did not tell me this when I was hired - why would they? Plus, I pretty much had to take the first job offered. Three, I do not have a chip on my shouder, I am just sick to death of watching the war on labor and listening to business owners and executives take no responsibility.

Do not take offense to this...but a foreign company only promoting those from the mother land is the norm...so why did you take a job with a foreign company? You had to take the first job offered...that was smart...but you stopped the search...that was a bad decision.

Saying you are sick to death watching the war on labor and the business owners not taking responsibility IS a chip on your shoulder...whether you want to admit it or not.

I suggest you sit back and re-evaluate who erred and how. You will find you made shoirt term smart choices and long term foolish choices. How do I know? You are not happy...and you seem to blame everyone buyt yourself.

Like I said...I did that...and I learned from it.

If you want ideas...let me know. Heck....I am a NYC guy myself....where do you live? In Manhattan? That too, would be a mistake.

Anyway...let me know.

 

[Oldandtired]

Yes, the Boss Caste, and make no mistake this is a caste system wherein birth (or at least patronage) is of vital importance, always manages to make claims of how they made the "better choices" but I often wonder when you get to choose your parents? Naturally I am more familiar with engineers and programmers than MBA's and executives, so I can only speak of what I, from outside the executive circle, observe. Well and what happens with engineers and programmers from a somewhat closer perspective.
The big bosses come in sometime around 9:00 and leave by 3:00, If something is a huge rush then they make sure to stay until 4:00 before calling it a day. Meanwhile the engineering (or programming) staff, who was reduced from 18 to 12 because they should "work smarter not harder" is forced to stay until 9:00 PM, even though they were at work by 8:00 AM, because there are not enough to do all the work. The engineers and programmers are expected to keep certifying in every new system or technology which the company wants to use or develop, as well as being prepared for going to another company when the one you are in decides the remaining engineers need to get smarter yet, and you get the axe for no other reason than an exec needs to justify their raise.

Now consider what the engineer did to get the job in the first place - college for four years, perhaps a masters (another year or two) - and hwat they are getting paid. Only a bit more than machinists and toolmakers of similar experience, btu the hourly guys get overtime when they work more than 40 hours while the engineer is salaries and regularly expected to put in 50+ hours a week, what with green time and comp time and mandatory minimums and of course the work has to get done so when the department is understaffed, which it always is because it is better in a lean job market to work the workers to death than to hire enough, the engineer gets worked 60+ hours a week and is making less than an hourly guy with a smaller skill set. And a LOT less than the exec who does not work more than 40 hours a week. Then having put in 60 hours at work, the engineer has to put in another 10 to 20 hours keeping current.

But hey everyone made their choices and it is clear, to listen to the Execs talk, that the only sensible choice for anyone would be to take a BBA and go into management, then move up to Exec, then rake in the money they "Earned" with their tough degree and "years" of working as middle management. Middle management who generally makes about as much as engineers of similar experience might I add, while the engineer, gets caught in a tight market. Take whatever job you can get or your expensive, (but it must have been sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much easier than a BBA) Engineering degree is just so much paper. Two years out of college and still looking for work is the same as not having a degree, so you MUST take whatever is offered. You don't have the luxury of being in a field like business where the technology does not render the degree useless, no you were foolish enough to pursue a technical degree.

The engineers and programmers should all walk out of their jobs en masse across the country and tell the execs to do it themselves.
Or pay fair wages.

Yes...they can do that if they wish.
Personal choioces...personal responsibility.
Until the proposed healthcare bill...no one can tell you that you must do anything. You have the right to make your own decisions...and reap the rewards or suffer the consequences.

Do you have any respect for folks who work with their hands? Those who actually produce the goods so vital to our economy and lifestyle, the carpenter, the pipe fitter, the furniture maker, the butcher, the baker or the candlestick maker?

Seems in some quarters, these folks are doomed to suffer the consequences. Meanwhile, the banker, the broker, the executive who makes the decision to take the means of production off shore are praised as new Caesars and courageous entrepreneurs. Ask me, they're crooks.

I agree...those that make money off americans but employ cheap labor overseas are crooks...unethical bastards.....but the return to Americans are cheaper prices (on the most part).

As for the three men in a tub...they are our backbone...I agree.....but their art is no longer appreciated as people prefer products mass proiduced that are cheaper...

Please do not blame the mass producers...blame the consumers who prefer cheeper products.

Me? I buy American only....have been since I was 23 years old.

 

[Mr. Peepers]

Nope. Brooklyn. Can't afford Manhattan.

I didn't plan for this to be a career. Are you kidding? Why would I risk a job search right now? There ARE no jobs to be had. Hell, you know we've got MBA's working at Starbucks because they can't find anything else. My warehouse closed down and my wonderfull, committed shipping person lost her job. She's been interviewing since September. Guess what... she isn't being offered anything more than $10 an hour regardless of experience. She just got married and she has recently been diagnosed with MS, and she is terrified of losing her insurance. There is a war on labor, whether you want to admit it or not. And labor is losing.

 

[Oldandtired]

Nope. Brooklyn. Can't afford Manhattan.

I didn't plan for this to be a career. Are you kidding? Why would I risk a job search right now? There ARE no jobs to be had. Hell, you know we've got MBA's working at Starbucks because they can't find anything else. My warehouse closed down and my wonderfull, committed shipping person lost her job. She's been interviewing since September. Guess what... she isn't being offered anything more than $10 an hour regardless of experience. She just got married and she has recently been diagnosed with MS, and she is terrified of losing her insurance. There is a war on labor, whether you want to admit it or not. And labor is losing.

Look for a job? And put yourself in the same position you are trying to get away from?
That was not my advice...not even close...so I assume you are cherry picking what posts of mine are worthy of reading.
Another bad decision on your part...but your choice.
Read how my son got started....a little ingenuity...much research...and he is making good money at 23 years old..running his own show.
You want advice, let me know.

 

[Charles Stucker]

There is a war on labor, whether you want to admit it or not. And labor is losing.

Which is why a Tariff based Federal income would be better than an Income tax based one.
Income tax raises the cost making products in the USA.
Tariffs raise the cost of importing products from outside the USA.
If Tariffs were the major source of Federal revenue they could not get too high or the government revenue stream would suffer.

That is why a Tariff based tax system would be fair.

 

[Oldandtired]

There is a war on labor, whether you want to admit it or not. And labor is losing.

Which is why a Tariff based Federal income would be better than an Income tax based one.
Income tax raises the cost making products in the USA.
Tariffs raise the cost of importing products from outside the USA.
If Tariffs were the major source of Federal revenue they could not get too high or the government revenue stream would suffer.

That is why a Tariff based tax system would be fair.

Again...you need to think out of the box. We increase the cost of goods sold TO us from overseas, it will result in foreign empolyers HERE in the US pulling out and costing us even more jobs.

I will say it again. Those that put their heads to it can create their own destiny....and not depend on foreign policy, domestic labor relations issues, etc.

I may be a conservative....but I am not an idiot. Iam a success story...one f those rags to riches stories....well, I am not rich...I am secure. That is all that matters.

 

[Oldandtired]

Nope. Brooklyn. Can't afford Manhattan.

I didn't plan for this to be a career. Are you kidding? Why would I risk a job search right now? There ARE no jobs to be had. Hell, you know we've got MBA's working at Starbucks because they can't find anything else. My warehouse closed down and my wonderfull, committed shipping person lost her job. She's been interviewing since September. Guess what... she isn't being offered anything more than $10 an hour regardless of experience. She just got married and she has recently been diagnosed with MS, and she is terrified of losing her insurance. There is a war on labor, whether you want to admit it or not. And labor is losing.

My first apartment was in Brooklyn..in the basement of a private home...right off avenue U.....15 blocks form the el.

He rented it to me with no mney down at 250 a month..did not have a dime to my name and made the commitment anyway....got a job at the local grocery and did that for 3 months as I developed and implemented my business plan.

My first business call was from a pay phone on my break from Krasners grocery.

True story.

 

[Polk]

What the fair tax does is removes the corporate taxes (we have the 2nd highest in the world)

Misleading. We have the second highest rate, but it has so many deductions and loopholes that we have a very low effective rate.



Many other major countries have a payroll tax (UK, China, Brazil, Australia) and when you get down to it, what's the difference between a payroll tax and an income tax? Very little in practical terms.




So people should be able to earn capital gains tax-free as long as they give those gains to their kids? That's asinine.

Naysayer will say the consumption tax will prohibit consumers from buying. That will not be the case. With all the taxes removed on business there will be a boom in Corporations forming and GROWING. Heck we will even see a boom in the manufacturing sector. More jobs mean more money in the American pockets. We are a consumer nation. In fact we spend more than any other nation. That won't stop with the Fair Tax. In fact it will increase, with the boom in employment, especially in high paying jobs.

The fair tax is what is needed to get us an edge over China, Mexico and the 3rd world.

Why would our manufacturing sector boom? The transition would significantly reduce the value of personal savings, placing consumers in an even tighter bind and higher prices for goods means they'll have reduced ability to purchase.

Curious Polk....are you not aware of what Payroll tax refers to?

Based on your comparing it to income tax, I would say you do not.

Payroll tax is by no means tax on income. It is a tax on the employer based on the salary paid to the employee.

Are you not aware of what estate tax is?

Based on you referring it to capital gains, I would say you dont.

Estate tax is a tax on income that had already been taxed when it was earned.

Why do you post when you know so little about what you are posting about?

- Payroll tax is paid by the employer, but the money comes from employee's salaries in the form of reduced wages.
- You're wrong about the estate tax. The entire purpose for it is that the money is often collected tax-free. That's the exact reason why this year is so horrible for estate planning, since the lack of an estate tax this year interacts with capital gains taxes to increase the tax burden for persons with estates between one and five million dollars.

 

[Polk]

One thing is for sure; we've got way too many people in this nation that have no tax burden at all. That's incredibly disturbing to me knowing that roughly 50% of the population gets to vote on how to spend tax dollars (albeit indirectly) when they don't contribute anything to be paid.

It would help to use real numbers. The whole "50% don't pay any taxes" claim is based on ignoring most taxes which are levied.

Interesting.....and you are correct.

But Mr. Obama insists on referring to ONLY income tax when discussing how no one under a certain income will get a tax increase....yet when debating the issue, you insist on throwing in the other taxes.

So lets call a spade a spade.

Yes, everyone's taxes are going up with everything they do. But the ones that have the longer hours, more stressful positions...and yes, create the jobs for the rest of them, carry 95% of the INCOME tax load....and only 50% overall pay INCOME tax...

Although, let us not forget...the employer STILL pays the payroll tax on those that do not pay income tax. You see, the employee will file and get their money back from the IRS.

The employer still needs to match the tax that was originally paid....despite the fact that the emplyee gets a full refund.

I know....who cares about the little details like that when debating.

Talk about ignorance. When it comes to payroll taxes, you know that the employee pays an amount equal to that "paid" by the employer, correct?

 

[Nosmo King]

Yes...they can do that if they wish.
Personal choioces...personal responsibility.
Until the proposed healthcare bill...no one can tell you that you must do anything. You have the right to make your own decisions...and reap the rewards or suffer the consequences.

Do you have any respect for folks who work with their hands? Those who actually produce the goods so vital to our economy and lifestyle, the carpenter, the pipe fitter, the furniture maker, the butcher, the baker or the candlestick maker?

Seems in some quarters, these folks are doomed to suffer the consequences. Meanwhile, the banker, the broker, the executive who makes the decision to take the means of production off shore are praised as new Caesars and courageous entrepreneurs. Ask me, they're crooks.

I agree...those that make money off americans but employ cheap labor overseas are crooks...unethical bastards.....but the return to Americans are cheaper prices (on the most part).

As for the three men in a tub...they are our backbone...I agree.....but their art is no longer appreciated as people prefer products mass proiduced that are cheaper...

Please do not blame the mass producers...blame the consumers who prefer cheeper products.

Me? I buy American only....have been since I was 23 years old.

Says something about "free" trade, doesn't it? I would prefer "fair" trade, but when I mention sanctions, I get smacked as isolationist and naive.

Take what happened to the American steel industry as an example. Asian steel producers were dumping steel in America. That is to say, they were selling it here for less than their cost of production and export. American steel producers couldn't stand a chance in a 'free' market. But in a fair market, we could have out produced in both quality and quantity, any foreign competitor.

But the die was cast. No one but Bush 43 imposed import tariffs on countries dumping steel. And that was for a mere nine months.

Try to lay the keels on three new aircraft carriers without the strategic resource of steel. try to rebuild miles of highways and bridges without steel. Try drilling for more American oil and natural gas then ship the stuff without steel.

But decisions were made by frazzled, over worked, under appreciated yet grossly over paid executives to do without an American steel industry.

 

[Oldandtired]

It would help to use real numbers. The whole "50% don't pay any taxes" claim is based on ignoring most taxes which are levied.

Interesting.....and you are correct.

But Mr. Obama insists on referring to ONLY income tax when discussing how no one under a certain income will get a tax increase....yet when debating the issue, you insist on throwing in the other taxes.

So lets call a spade a spade.

Yes, everyone's taxes are going up with everything they do. But the ones that have the longer hours, more stressful positions...and yes, create the jobs for the rest of them, carry 95% of the INCOME tax load....and only 50% overall pay INCOME tax...

Although, let us not forget...the employer STILL pays the payroll tax on those that do not pay income tax. You see, the employee will file and get their money back from the IRS.

The employer still needs to match the tax that was originally paid....despite the fact that the emplyee gets a full refund.

I know....who cares about the little details like that when debating.

Talk about ignorance. When it comes to payroll taxes, you know that the employee pays an amount equal to that "paid" by the employer, correct?

Actually, it is not equal...but close. The employer pays based on the employee income, not based on the individuals tax laibility. As you know, the majority of lower income individuals claim few exemptions as many do not own and do not have children...referring to the 18-25 demographic. So they claim 0 or 1 and have much taxes taken out. The employer "matches" per the current tax code. In April, the employee files his/her return and invariably receives a refund. The employer does not for his/her "share" of the payroll tax.
That being said, here in New York, the "statutory" costs to an employer for any given employee is between 15% and 18% of the base salary of the employee; and, of course, higher if healthcare is paid for by the employer. This includes unemploytment liabilities that, yes, the employer pays while an individual collects....assuming the unemployment ratio is exceeeded...which, during a recession, is likely.
Furthermore, the costs have risen DURING THE RECESSION as the government opted to extend unemployment benefits by 100%...costs the employers were not necessarily prepared for.
As it pertains to my ignorance...you have a choice Polk....you can capitalize on my posts and learn something as I have with yours in the past, or you can simply try to punch holes in what I say simply so you can feel you are in the right. That is your choice.

 

[Oldandtired]

Do you have any respect for folks who work with their hands? Those who actually produce the goods so vital to our economy and lifestyle, the carpenter, the pipe fitter, the furniture maker, the butcher, the baker or the candlestick maker?

Seems in some quarters, these folks are doomed to suffer the consequences. Meanwhile, the banker, the broker, the executive who makes the decision to take the means of production off shore are praised as new Caesars and courageous entrepreneurs. Ask me, they're crooks.

I agree...those that make money off americans but employ cheap labor overseas are crooks...unethical bastards.....but the return to Americans are cheaper prices (on the most part).

As for the three men in a tub...they are our backbone...I agree.....but their art is no longer appreciated as people prefer products mass proiduced that are cheaper...

Please do not blame the mass producers...blame the consumers who prefer cheeper products.

Me? I buy American only....have been since I was 23 years old.

Says something about "free" trade, doesn't it? I would prefer "fair" trade, but when I mention sanctions, I get smacked as isolationist and naive.

Take what happened to the American steel industry as an example. Asian steel producers were dumping steel in America. That is to say, they were selling it here for less than their cost of production and export. American steel producers couldn't stand a chance in a 'free' market. But in a fair market, we could have out produced in both quality and quantity, any foreign competitor.

But the die was cast. No one but Bush 43 imposed import tariffs on countries dumping steel. And that was for a mere nine months.

Try to lay the keels on three new aircraft carriers without the strategic resource of steel. try to rebuild miles of highways and bridges without steel. Try drilling for more American oil and natural gas then ship the stuff without steel.

But decisions were made by frazzled, over worked, under appreciated yet grossly over paid executives to do without an American steel industry.

Yeah..I have mixed feelings about free trade. Tarrifs concern me as many of our people are now employed by foreign companies with US headquarters...and if we impede their ability to import to us, they may prompt those companies to leave the US; perhaps with financial incentives.

Likewise, a US government mandate for all US companies to cease all outsource programs overseas may result in the same; foreign companies leaving the US; quite possibly increasing unemployment.

I can say one thing for sure...the more we boirrow from the world, the stronger a hold they will have on our domestic free trade decisions.

I am not an isolationist as our founders believed....but I am starting to see why they believed it.

 

[Polk]

Interesting.....and you are correct.

But Mr. Obama insists on referring to ONLY income tax when discussing how no one under a certain income will get a tax increase....yet when debating the issue, you insist on throwing in the other taxes.

So lets call a spade a spade.

Yes, everyone's taxes are going up with everything they do. But the ones that have the longer hours, more stressful positions...and yes, create the jobs for the rest of them, carry 95% of the INCOME tax load....and only 50% overall pay INCOME tax...

Although, let us not forget...the employer STILL pays the payroll tax on those that do not pay income tax. You see, the employee will file and get their money back from the IRS.

The employer still needs to match the tax that was originally paid....despite the fact that the emplyee gets a full refund.

I know....who cares about the little details like that when debating.

Talk about ignorance. When it comes to payroll taxes, you know that the employee pays an amount equal to that "paid" by the employer, correct?

Actually, it is not equal...but close. The employer pays based on the employee income, not based on the individuals tax laibility. As you know, the majority of lower income individuals claim few exemptions as many do not own and do not have children...referring to the 18-25 demographic. So they claim 0 or 1 and have much taxes taken out. The employer "matches" per the current tax code. In April, the employee files his/her return and invariably receives a refund. The employer does not for his/her "share" of the payroll tax.
That being said, here in New York, the "statutory" costs to an employer for any given employee is between 15% and 18% of the base salary of the employee; and, of course, higher if healthcare is paid for by the employer. This includes unemploytment liabilities that, yes, the employer pays while an individual collects....assuming the unemployment ratio is exceeeded...which, during a recession, is likely.
Furthermore, the costs have risen DURING THE RECESSION as the government opted to extend unemployment benefits by 100%...costs the employers were not necessarily prepared for.
As it pertains to my ignorance...you have a choice Polk....you can capitalize on my posts and learn something as I have with yours in the past, or you can simply try to punch holes in what I say simply so you can feel you are in the right. That is your choice.

Why would I absorb your ignorance? You don't know the difference between income tax and payroll tax.