Zone1 Explaining Jesus to a Jew

[BULLDOG]

You're not asking for evidence in line with scientific evidence for historical claims, are you?

You got anything other than the bible? "The bible is true because the bible says it is true" isn't quite enough to prove your point.

 

[SweetSue92]

You got anything other than the bible? "The bible is true because the bible says it is true" isn't quite enough to prove your point.

Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources

Do any other ancient documents help to confirm the trustworthiness of the New Testament?

www.bethinking.org

 

[BULLDOG]

Yes. The accounts of how the apostles lived and then died.

Before the resurrection they were often "pious" and sometimes not and really....just like us. There's bumbling, doubt, cowardice and sometimes, close to outright buffoonery. Jesus Christ calls Peter the Rock and then Peter, right before Jesus' death and only hours before pledging his undying fidelity, denies Him three times.

Such is the life of the "believer" without the Holy Spirit. Who cannot see the humanity of this--and themselves in it?

Jesus is killed and they run off and hide, basically. They seem to remember nothing of what their Friend and Teacher taught. Again. Just like us.

But then they encounter the risen Christ. And then, one after another, go to their deaths--often horrid deaths--to protect their testimony. These same men who denied Jesus and then ran away after He was crucified.

And those accounts are doccumented by what? The Bible?

 

[Meriweather]

He presented the then Catholic Church view of the ---uhm "after life"

It is more complicated (and interesting) than that. For years I keep meaning to do better research on Dante and his times. The Inferno seems to reflect not only Christian teaching, but also pagan and medieval social beliefs of the time of demonology. Recall he was exiled from Florence over a financial battle (he was on the losing side).

The other question to be answered is whether Dante reflected the Catholic view of hell at the time...or whether the Catholic view of hell (or at least the Catholic population) was influenced by Dante's Inferno. Anyway, an interesting man who lived an interesting life.

 

[BULLDOG]

Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources

Do any other ancient documents help to confirm the trustworthiness of the New Testament?

www.bethinking.org

Texts written more than 100 years AD can only reasonably attest to stories passed down. I suppose they can be trusted to indicate the presence of the beginnings of a religion, but can hardly be seen as proof of divinity, or a miraculous resurection.

 

[Meriweather]

I wish someone would explain him to me as after decades of prayers and effort, peace never arrived while the most evil among us constsntly profited.

The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares where an enemy sowed weeds after the farmer planted wheat. The harvest is not yet here where the two will be separated.

 

[shockedcanadian]

The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares where an enemy sowed weeds after the farmer planted wheat. The harvest is not yet here where the two will be separated.

I don't doubt the theories and kind words of Christians. The problem is that oir approach isn't working. Evil is abound and often masquerading as good. We passively accept this, which ensures our demise. Look at Ontario, we are essentially bankrupt and our morality and defense of liberty has long been replaced. Whatever justice on this earth it won't occur in my lifetime.

 

[Meriweather]

I don't know why you ride this hobby horse all the time.

"For the wages of sin is death" Romans 6:23

Wages are not considered punishment are they. They are consequences of what one has sown. Not to mention, it was not Jesus who said this, it was Paul who was reflecting on sin. Go by the way of sin, and that leads to death. Go by the way Christ taught leads to kingdom living. No one needed to be punished for sins to be forgiven, according to Jesus repentance took care of forgiveness.

Provide me with scriptures where the Old Testament notes the Messiah must be punished; provide me with the verses where Jesus says God must punish him for the world's sins to be forgiven.

"The wages of sins is death" is not about punishment. Keep in mind that Paul noted that with one man (Adam) sin/disobedience was passed onto to mankind. With Jesus, obedience instead of disobedience was offered as a way of living to mankind. Once again, punishment was not mentioned that punishment was needed before humans would be able to choose obedience.

Why do you find this disturbing? If the idea of punishment before sins could be forgiven is not in scripture, from where did it come?

ETA: Matthew 25 over Romans 25: "Whatever you did for the least of these..."

Jesus did not say, "Don't worry if you didn't do anything. I will be punished for your neglect."

 

[SweetSue92]

And those accounts are doccumented by what? The Bible?

What do you think EXTRA Biblical means?

 

[Meriweather]

I don't doubt the theories and kind words of Christians. The problem is that oir approach isn't working. Evil is abound and often masquerading as good. We passively accept this, which ensures our demise. Look at Ontario, we are essentially bankrupt and our morality and defense of liberty has long been replaced. Whatever justice on this earth it won't occur in my lifetime.

What fascinates me about Jesus is that he did not give all that much attention to how to get along with government/politicians--but how to get along with the people in our own lives that truly matter to us.

All I can offer you is to keep praying and to keep your eyes open for what life is teaching you. Years ago, I wanted to improve what I was in the midst of. How could I do this? I prayed and prayed...year after year after year...until four years had gone by. Then, almost instantly everything snapped into place and I knew what I needed to do! It wasn't even all that hard, but you see, my eyes had to be opened, my perspective widened before I saw the way.

Then, looking back over those four years, I saw the many things--many of which at the time came about coincidentally--at how God had worked quietly in my life behind the scenes to bring about the answer to my prayers. My life changed. I credit it to being persistent in prayer and having absolute faith it was a good prayer and that God answers good prayers. What I learned from it is that God builds carefully, He builds on rock which stands. He did not build on sand where everything was washed away when I ran into an unexpected difficulty.

 

[Red Front]

You got anything other than the bible? "The bible is true because the bible says it is true" isn't quite enough to prove your point.

People get healed of cancer in the Name of Jesus. There are many miracles that occur among the faithful, in Christ's Name.

Furthermore, evil, fallen spirits exist, who identify themselves as demons and fallen angels. They can be contacted through a "radio sweeper" or ghost box.

​

Anyone can do this, it's easy. If you're so stubborn in resisting the drawing of the Holy Spirit to Christ, perhaps you should meet the devil first. If the devil exists, then it follows that perhaps, God and His angels exist. Right? If demons exist, then maybe angels exist. Got it?

Evangelicals make the mistake of rejecting the gifts of the Holy Spirit and hinging everything on a book being "inerrant" and infallible. It's easy to debunk or reject this form of "Christianity", because it's not really Christianity. Christianity isn't hanging on a book being inerrant, it rather involves the reality of God's presence in and through His Son and Holy Spirit. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit exist, with or without the collection of writings called "The Bible". God isn't a mere fictional character in a storybook.

Most of what you're reading in the Bible is to be understood spiritually, in principle, not as a scientific paper or a perfect historically accurate account. It's a book of divine archetypes, symbols, and principles, that when acknowledged and applied correctly, in faith, have a real effect on you and your environment. The faith that sparks life in you is supernatural. Its source transcends space and time. God can't be quantified in a book or story, He is real and is ever-present in His creation. He encompasses all things.

The Bible points to Christ and can guide us towards Him, but it's not the evidence for Christianity being true. Christianity isn't a "book religion", like Judaism and Islam are. We're not the so-called "people of the book", as the Muslims call us and the Jews. We are the people of the Spirit. It's the presence of almighty God in and through Christ and His Holy Spirit, that makes all of the difference. Those who identify as Christians and quote the Bible to non-believers to "prove Christianity" are lacking discernment and doing harm to the gospel. The Bible doesn't prove Christianity to non-believers, it's designed to reinforce the faith of believers. It's a physical, tangible tool for the body of Christ, it's not for the world.

Whoever trying to convince you that Christianity is based on truth and reality, by quoting the Bible to you, isn't a well-trained and discipled Christian. They're lacking good instruction and guidance from their clergy. We can quote the Bible to show you what we believe, but not to prove what we believe to you. The way we "prove" the truth of the gospel to you, is by the power of the Holy Spirit, supernaturally. We will pray for you in Jesus' Name and eliminate that tumor or we will tell that person everything about them, including where they were last night with that person, at the motel, when their spouse thought they were working late at the office. That's what makes genuine, true Christianity, unique. It has POWER.

​

God in Christ will transform your life, through the power of His Holy Spirit. He will save you from destruction.

 

[irosie91]

It is more complicated (and interesting) than that. For years I keep meaning to do better research on Dante and his times. The Inferno seems to reflect not only Christian teaching, but also pagan and medieval social beliefs of the time of demonology. Recall he was exiled from Florence over a financial battle (he was on the losing side).

The other question to be answered is whether Dante reflected the Catholic view of hell at the time...or whether the Catholic view of hell (or at least the Catholic population) was influenced by Dante's Inferno. Anyway, an interesting man who lived an interesting life.

Oh gee Meri I read the book, uhm---some 60 years ago. for school. The "social
studies" teacher was REALLY impressed. But she asked me about hell----and what was
unusual about it------and ---well---I read some reviews so I kinda KNEW----Dante
put a POPE in hell, He used the model to express his own social issues. What I read at
age 14---I remember ----uhm....but I forgot where I put my keys. HOWEVER---the general
outline----Inferno, Purgatory, Paradiso was catholic dogma at the time

 

[rosends]

It was foretold that the Messiah would be rejected by most men.

Isaiah 53 describes how he will be rejected, beaten, struck down and led to the slaughter.

No, Isaiah 53 doesn't. Show me the word "messiah" in Isaiah 53.

 

[BreezeWood]

People get healed of cancer in the Name of Jesus. There are many miracles that occur among the faithful, in Christ's Name.

keep w/ jesus, heavenly endowment of self determination and all will be well the fallacy of christianity will accomplish nothing than servitude and self pity.

 

[irosie91]

No, Isaiah 53 doesn't. Show me the word "messiah" in Isaiah 53.

In My not so Humble Opinion The people who can explain JESUS ---
are his fellow jews

 

[Red Front]

No, Isaiah 53 doesn't. Show me the word "messiah" in Isaiah 53.

It doesn't have to have the word "messiah" to be of the messiah. The Hebrew Bible identifies the messiah as David. It uses the word David in more than one verse, yet we know that the Messiah isn't literally David. The Hebrew Bible can use different words, symbolically, and metaphorically, to refer to something else. The suffering servant in Isaiah 53 is the Messiah, without being identified literally as the Messiah. It's not identified literally as Israel or the remnant of Israel either, yet you believe it's exclusively Israel. Another interpretation is that it is the prophet Isaiah himself, who is also identified as the servant of God in the book of Isaiah.

The righteous remnant of Israel and the Messiah are one according to Daniel 7.

 

[Red Front]

In My not so Humble Opinion The people who can explain JESUS ---
are his fellow jews

They're not his fellow Jews.

 

[irosie91]

keep w/ jesus, heavenly endowment of self determination and all will be well the fallacy of christianity will accomplish nothing than servitude and self pity.

breezie----have you ever come across the phrase "ONE TRICK PONY" ???

 

[irosie91]

It doesn't have to have the word "messiah" to be of the messiah. The Hebrew Bible identifies the messiah as David. It uses the word David in more than one verse, yet we know that the Messiah isn't literally David. The Hebrew Bible can use different words, symbolically, and metaphorically, to refer to something else. The suffering servant in Isaiah 53 is the Messiah, without being identified literally as the Messiah. It's not identified literally as Israel or the remnant of Israel either, yet you believe it's exclusively Israel. Another interpretation is that it is the prophet Isaiah himself, who is also identified as the servant of God in the book of Isaiah.

The remnant of Israel and the Messiah are one according to Daniel 7.

Nope----the name of "the messiah" is not "david"----"david" is the name of
the second king of Israel---he was so ANNOINTED. The theoretical messiah is
by custom a descendant of David----David is of the Tribe of JUDAH---Jacob names
his son JUDAH as successor king of his community----to wit, the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL,
thus Judah is supposed to be the founder of a ROYAL LINE. The Remmant of Israel is the
SURVIVORS-----like me

 

[Red Front]

keep w/ jesus, heavenly endowment of self determination and all will be well the fallacy of christianity will accomplish nothing than servitude and self pity.

Could you elaborate? What are you saying? I didn't quite get that.