Evangelicals and Trump

[whutTHEYsay]

Also, you claim it's a lie when it's really a part of America's past identify.

The statement “America was founded as a Christian nation” is a lie. If you cannot prove otherwise you shouid not repeat it as if it were fact.

That America has an EUROPEAN Christian identity based upon the majority of Protestant Christian settlers who arrived in the New World from Europe is also a fact.

I dont understand why you white Christian nationalists cannot stick with the facts. Why must you lie about the founding of America?

 

[whutTHEYsay]

The fact that the Founding Fathers wanted to allow religious freedom to all individuals does not mean that they did not intend the nation to be and/or to remain, vastly predominately Christian.


That was my point and nothing I could see in your link contradicts it.

the link was a response to your declaration that you never heard of the white Christian nationalists proponents for Christianity being supported in the Constitution were the losers at that time. The non-Christian framers prevailed.

Your above statement really isn’t saying anything since it also could read;

The fact that the Founding Fathers wanted to allow religious freedom to all individuals does not mean that they Intended that the New nation must remain, vastly predominately Christian.

The winner take all view to guarantee freedom of conscience, to choose any religion or no religion, as a right to each individual citizen can mean only one thing - America was not founded as a Christian Nation. There was no limit to what brand religion could flourish in America or no religion at all.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

I didn’t particularly like the fact @NotfooledbyW and @Correll took this conversation back so far,

You can blame me for that. Correll I don’t believe wishes to visit the past so much since white evangelical Protestant Christians have had a successful run with the ‘founded as a Christian nation’ political appeal to the white mostly evangelical religious vote in America for such a long time.

I think it matters that this politically motivated lie be dissolved because it justifies much of the religious rights opposition to progress in America that is championed by liberals and progressives.

As I pointed out most Democrats are Christians themselves.

And I sincerely believe that progressive Christians with their rich association with the working class and inclusive multiculturalism are more in line with the 18th enlightenment actual founding of America than white evangelical Christians are in line with their fictional Fundamentalist Christian founding of America.

The evangelists have simply sold their brand better over the past half century or so.

it’s time to quit the white Evangelical Christian lie that they possess the sole religious and moral roots that go back to the founding.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

I didn’t particularly like the fact @NotfooledbyW and @Correll took this conversation back so far,

You can blame me for that. Correll I don’t believe wishes to visit the past so much since white evangelical Protestant Christians have had a successful run with the ‘founded as a Christian nation’ political appeal to the white mostly evangelical religious vote in America for such a long time.

I think it matters that this politically motivated lie be dissolved because it justifies much of the religious rights opposition to progress in America that is championed by liberals and progressives.

As I pointed out most Democrats are Christians themselves.

And I sincerely believe that progressive Christians with their rich association with the working class and inclusive multiculturalism are more in line with the 18th enlightenment actual founding of America than white evangelical Christians are in line with their fictional Fundamentalist Christian founding of America.

The evangelists have simply sold their brand better over the past half century or so.

it’s time to quit the white Evangelical Christian lie that they possess the sole religious and moral roots that go back to the founding.

Well argued. I can’t disagree with your reasoning here at all.

 

[james bond]

Also, you claim it's a lie when it's really a part of America's past identify.

The statement “America was founded as a Christian nation” is a lie. If you cannot prove otherwise you shouid not repeat it as if it were fact.

That America has an EUROPEAN Christian identity based upon the majority of Protestant Christian settlers who arrived in the New World from Europe is also a fact.

I dont understand why you white Christian nationalists cannot stick with the facts. Why must you lie about the founding of America?

First, you are racist and like to point out that blame lies within the white Christians and Christianity when there is no evidence. None of your links state that.

Furthermore, I didn't say that "America was founded as Christian nation" is true. What is true is that America's identify is based on it being Christian. You admitted it yourself in your post.

Again, you can't stick with the facts and are lying throughout this thread. Instead, we should listen to President Donald Trump for more of the truth.

 

[BreezeWood]

It would be so refreshing to have an honest discussion for once with an advocate for abortion.

.

It would be so refreshing to have an honest discussion for once with an advocate for abortion.

.
- and your purpose for the "discussion" you have not already imposed by your incendiary statements.

To state the obvious; that it is wrong to abort a human life.

To state the obvious; that it is wrong to abort a human life.

but murdering everything else in Garden Earth is ok -
.
View attachment 391463
.
you've not explained how having a vasectomy or using a condom is not the same as an abortion ... fill us in.

That is moronic. Completely moronic.

.

That is moronic. Completely moronic.

but murdering everything else in Garden Earth is ok - you've not explained how having a vasectomy or using a condom is not the same as an abortion ... fill us in.

.
don't be a coward, give it a whirll -
.
View attachment 391758
.
have you your letter from the priest, their permission for your vasectomy ... bing fixed it for himself no different than an abortion.

A sperm is not a human life you ******* moron. A fertilized egg, is. THe sperm by itself, will not grow up and one day have a family of it's own.

The fertilized egg, will. Because it is a human life. A brand new human life, with a lot of growing in front of him or her, but a human never the less.
.

What part of that, is too hard for you to understand?

.
preventative intervention is the same no matter when it occurs - and is the choice made by the individual involved - bing chose abortion for himself while denying the same to others the same as you and your self centric, qualifying motivations intervening against the lives of others you have no legitimacy being involved with.
.

The sperm is not.

you are a joke by using a condom you are preventing a birth. the very purpose of a vasectomy is the prevention of life - your doing nothing more than screaming fire in a packed theatre.

 

[LuckyDuck]

Trump has shown some amazing things about religion in America and particularly Evangelicals when it comes to political power. You would think Trump Christ-like. But I fail to remember Christ being in favor of caging children or breaking up families. Did I miss that? Two pieces below help, it isn't about being religious, is it? What then of religion? Has it lost its holiness, its goodness.

'How the evangelical movement became Trump's "*****" — and yes, I know what that word signifies'

'As an evangelical myself, I can see how far the movement has sunk — even to betraying its own ideal of masculinity'

https://www.salon.com/2020/09/09/ho...***--and-yes-i-know-what-that-word-signifies/

"His most notable advice for interacting with half the human population is "grab 'em by the *****". Who could have predicted such an alliance?"

Climate too. Why not pray away hurricanes floods and fires, poverty too while they are at it. Interesting how the mixture of politics and religion accomplishes so little good.

'Faith and politics mix to drive evangelical Christians’ climate change denial'

Faith and politics mix to drive evangelical Christians’ climate change denial

Few white evangelicals in the U.S. say they believe in human-made climate change. This strand of science denial seems to have as much to do with conservative politics as the Bible’s teachings.

theconversation.com

'Climate science denial may stem more from politics than religion'

'Social scientist Dan Kahan rejects the idea of an automatic link between religiosity and any anti-science bias. He argues that religiosity only incidentally tracks science denial because some scientific findings have become “culturally antagonistic” to some identity groups.'


"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money." Matthew 6:24

The photos of children in cages has been proven to be from the.......OBAMA administration!!!
Here's your choice:
Trump: The Constitution, freedom of speech and freedom of religion.
Biden: Socialist agenda. Look to socialist nations and you will see religious liberties curtailed and monitored and the freedom of speech gone.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

Furthermore, I didn't say that "America was founded as Christian nation" is true.

Then what’s your beef and rant against me saying the truth?

 

[whutTHEYsay]

First, you are racist and like to point out that blame lies within the white Christians

who can figure out what in the hell you are talking about.

I’m saying that America was not founded as a Christian Nation.

You said:

I didn't say that "America was founded as Christian nation" is true.

Which means that you must agree with me that people who claim that “America was founded as Christian nation" are liars.

Therefore and this is where you lose me. When I point out that the people that mostly run around saying “America was founded as Christian nation" are white Protestant evangelical Christians are liars - you accuse me of being a racist.

Could you please explain exactly how logic works in a Trump supporters brain.

is it not permissible to point out when a large group of white evangelical Christians continually repeat a lie about the founding of America? Is It racist to point out that the liars are mostly all white? Black folks are not running around telling that lie. What is wrong with pointing out when White people in a large political religious movement repeat the same lie over and over and can’t back it up.

IF You refuse to say “America was founded as Christian nation" and be a Trump supporter I wonder why Correll can’t.

 

[Correll]

The fact that the Founding Fathers wanted to allow religious freedom to all individuals does not mean that they did not intend the nation to be and/or to remain, vastly predominately Christian.


That was my point and nothing I could see in your link contradicts it.

the link was a response to your declaration that you never heard of the white Christian nationalists proponents for Christianity being supported in the Constitution were the losers at that time. The non-Christian framers prevailed.

Your above statement really isn’t saying anything since it also could read;

The fact that the Founding Fathers wanted to allow religious freedom to all individuals does not mean that they Intended that the New nation must remain, vastly predominately Christian.

The winner take all view to guarantee freedom of conscience, to choose any religion or no religion, as a right to each individual citizen can mean only one thing - America was not founded as a Christian Nation. There was no limit to what brand religion could flourish in America or no religion at all.

Or it could mean that it was founded as a Christian nation that was happy to ensure the religious freedom of it's small minorities of non-Christians that were present at it's founding and were expected to remain small but tolerated populations living here among the vast Christian magority.

 

[Correll]

I didn’t particularly like the fact @NotfooledbyW and @Correll took this conversation back so far,

You can blame me for that. Correll I don’t believe wishes to visit the past so much since white evangelical Protestant Christians have had a successful run with the ‘founded as a Christian nation’ political appeal to the white mostly evangelical religious vote in America for such a long time.

I think it matters that this politically motivated lie be dissolved because it justifies much of the religious rights opposition to progress in America that is championed by liberals and progressives.

As I pointed out most Democrats are Christians themselves.

And I sincerely believe that progressive Christians with their rich association with the working class and inclusive multiculturalism are more in line with the 18th enlightenment actual founding of America than white evangelical Christians are in line with their fictional Fundamentalist Christian founding of America.

The evangelists have simply sold their brand better over the past half century or so.

it’s time to quit the white Evangelical Christian lie that they possess the sole religious and moral roots that go back to the founding.

Yeah, ,progress.

 

[Correll]

It would be so refreshing to have an honest discussion for once with an advocate for abortion.

.

It would be so refreshing to have an honest discussion for once with an advocate for abortion.

.
- and your purpose for the "discussion" you have not already imposed by your incendiary statements.

To state the obvious; that it is wrong to abort a human life.

To state the obvious; that it is wrong to abort a human life.

but murdering everything else in Garden Earth is ok -
.
View attachment 391463
.
you've not explained how having a vasectomy or using a condom is not the same as an abortion ... fill us in.

That is moronic. Completely moronic.

.

That is moronic. Completely moronic.

but murdering everything else in Garden Earth is ok - you've not explained how having a vasectomy or using a condom is not the same as an abortion ... fill us in.

.
don't be a coward, give it a whirll -
.
View attachment 391758
.
have you your letter from the priest, their permission for your vasectomy ... bing fixed it for himself no different than an abortion.

A sperm is not a human life you ******* moron. A fertilized egg, is. THe sperm by itself, will not grow up and one day have a family of it's own.

The fertilized egg, will. Because it is a human life. A brand new human life, with a lot of growing in front of him or her, but a human never the less.
.

What part of that, is too hard for you to understand?

.
preventative intervention is the same no matter when it occurs - and is the choice made by the individual involved - bing chose abortion for himself while denying the same to others the same as you and your self centric, qualifying motivations intervening against the lives of others you have no legitimacy being involved with.
.

The sperm is not.

you are a joke by using a condom you are preventing a birth. the very purpose of a vasectomy is the prevention of life - your doing nothing more than screaming fire in a packed theatre.

Except it obvious does matter whether the intervention occurs, before the parts come together it is parts that could become something greater if the right chain of events happens,


and later on, it is a human being.

 

[james bond]

I’m saying that America was not founded as a Christian Nation.

Haha. Now, I having to repeat myself. I'm not disagreeing with you. I said this is America's identity instead. You are a touchy lil
basturd, aren't you?

Which means that you must agree with me that people who claim that “America was founded as Christian nation" are liars.

No, what I criticized you for was you bringing the white race into it when your links didn't refer to any race. See, I'm repeating myself again because you have low USMB R&E IQ.

When I point out that the people that mostly run around saying “America was founded as Christian nation" are white Protestant evangelical Christians are liars - you accuse me of being a racist.

Could you please explain exactly how logic works in a Trump supporters brain.

I already stated you links do not mention race. You are the one who mentions race. Why can't you listen to what I'm saying? Maybe if you replaced where you said "white" with black, then you would understand.

is it not permissible to point out when a large group of white evangelical Christians continually repeat a lie about the founding of America? Is It racist to point out that the liars are mostly all white? Black folks are not running around telling that lie. What is wrong with pointing out when White people in a large political religious movement repeat the same lie over and over and can’t back it up.

IF You refuse to say “America was founded as Christian nation" and be a Trump supporter I wonder why @Correll can’t.

Yes, it is. You continually blame the majority when the majorty do not say that. Instead, most people of all races identify with America being a Christian nation.

Again, we already discussed this and you haven't brought up anything new. Good day, sir, and good bye.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

You continually blame the majority when the majorty do not say that.

What majority do you think I’m blaming? And what do you think I’m blaming that majority for?

I’m saying white Protestant evangelical Christians are one religious group that repeatedly claim that America was founded as a Christian Nation. And that claim is a lie.

If you wish to denounce the above statement you need to at least try to put some substance behind your denunciation. Here is the latest attempt by Correll to
Invent a way to say America was founded as a Christian nation.

Or it could mean that it was founded as a Christian nation that was happy to ensure the religious freedom of it's small minorities of non-Christians that were present at it's founding and were expected to remain small but tolerated populations living here among the vast Christian magority.

Correll , If you include secularism and Catholicism as a welcome religious minority in 18th Century America your words above are truly full of shit with your most recent Christian Nation concoction,

And you are at odds with this white evangelical Christian nationalist and and the Trump/Pence Christian nation cult leaders.

Olivier Douliery (Pool)/Getty Images
One of Trump’s closest evangelical allies gave a sermon on Sunday titled “America is a Christian Nation” while protesters gathered outside.

How dare you undermine the teachings of the Trumpence:Jeffress religious cult?

America was founded predominantly ... by Christians who wanted to build this foundation, this Christian nation, on the foundation of God’s will.” Pastor Robert Jeffress​

​

Trump-allied pastor tells worshippers "America is a Christian nation"

Pastor Robert Jeffress led a "Freedom Sunday" service at First Baptist Church Dallas.

www.google.com

And the other Trouble with your concoction is:

​

Then, as now, most Christians in the world were Catholics. Claiming that people moved by deep prejudice against most of world’s Christians wanted to form a “Christian nation” makes no sense.​

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/07/04/what-politicians-mean-when-they-say-america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation/%3foutputType=amp

There was even prevalent, open hostility to Christianity, in the form of anti-Catholicism, in Revolutionary-era America. The American Colonies were deeply, profoundly anti-Catholic. Anti-Catholicism was one of the few things the diverse Colonies shared. Colonists were horrified when Britain, with the 1774 Quebec Act, recognized Quebec’s Catholics as deserving equal protection of the law. The Continental Congress protested, claiming that Catholicism as a religion that had “deluged” Britain in blood and “dispersed impiety, bigotry, persecution, murder and rebellion through every part of the world.”​

​

The problem cannot be solved by simply devolving to “Protestant nation.” Britain was known as the sword and shield of Protestantism, set against a hostile Catholic Continent.​

​

​

 

[Correll]

I’m saying that America was not founded as a Christian Nation.

Haha. Now, I having to repeat myself. I'm not disagreeing with you. I said this is America's identity instead. You are a touchy lil
basturd, aren't you?

Which means that you must agree with me that people who claim that “America was founded as Christian nation" are liars.

No, what I criticized you for was you bringing the white race into it when your links didn't refer to any race. See, I'm repeating myself again because you have low USMB R&E IQ.

When I point out that the people that mostly run around saying “America was founded as Christian nation" are white Protestant evangelical Christians are liars - you accuse me of being a racist.

Could you please explain exactly how logic works in a Trump supporters brain.

I already stated you links do not mention race. You are the one who mentions race. Why can't you listen to what I'm saying? Maybe if you replaced where you said "white" with black, then you would understand.

is it not permissible to point out when a large group of white evangelical Christians continually repeat a lie about the founding of America? Is It racist to point out that the liars are mostly all white? Black folks are not running around telling that lie. What is wrong with pointing out when White people in a large political religious movement repeat the same lie over and over and can’t back it up.

IF You refuse to say “America was founded as Christian nation" and be a Trump supporter I wonder why @Correll can’t.

Yes, it is. You continually blame the majority when the majorty do not say that. Instead, most people of all races identify with America being a Christian nation.



Again, we already discussed this and you haven't brought up anything new. Good day, sir, and good bye.

NotfooledbyW, he just kicked your ass.

 

[Correll]

You continually blame the majority when the majorty do not say that.

What majority do you think I’m blaming? And what do you think I’m blaming that majority for?

I’m saying white Protestant evangelical Christians are one religious group that repeatedly claim that America was founded as a Christian Nation. And that claim is a lie.

If you wish to denounce the above statement you need to at least try to put some substance behind your denunciation. Here is the latest attempt by Correll to
Invent a way to say America was founded as a Christian nation.

Or it could mean that it was founded as a Christian nation that was happy to ensure the religious freedom of it's small minorities of non-Christians that were present at it's founding and were expected to remain small but tolerated populations living here among the vast Christian magority.

Correll , If you include secularism and Catholicism as a welcome religious minority in 18th Century America your words above are truly full of shit with your most recent Christian Nation concoction,

And you are at odds with this white evangelical Christian nationalist and and the Trump/Pence Christian nation cult leaders.

Olivier Douliery (Pool)/Getty Images
One of Trump’s closest evangelical allies gave a sermon on Sunday titled “America is a Christian Nation” while protesters gathered outside.

How dare you undermine the teachings of the Trumpence:Jeffress religious cult?

America was founded predominantly ... by Christians who wanted to build this foundation, this Christian nation, on the foundation of God’s will.” Pastor Robert Jeffress​

​

Trump-allied pastor tells worshippers "America is a Christian nation"

Pastor Robert Jeffress led a "Freedom Sunday" service at First Baptist Church Dallas.

www.google.com

And the other Trouble with your concoction is:

​

Then, as now, most Christians in the world were Catholics. Claiming that people moved by deep prejudice against most of world’s Christians wanted to form a “Christian nation” makes no sense.​

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/07/04/what-politicians-mean-when-they-say-america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation/%3foutputType=amp

There was even prevalent, open hostility to Christianity, in the form of anti-Catholicism, in Revolutionary-era America. The American Colonies were deeply, profoundly anti-Catholic. Anti-Catholicism was one of the few things the diverse Colonies shared. Colonists were horrified when Britain, with the 1774 Quebec Act, recognized Quebec’s Catholics as deserving equal protection of the law. The Continental Congress protested, claiming that Catholicism as a religion that had “deluged” Britain in blood and “dispersed impiety, bigotry, persecution, murder and rebellion through every part of the world.”​

​

The problem cannot be solved by simply devolving to “Protestant nation.” Britain was known as the sword and shield of Protestantism, set against a hostile Catholic Continent.​

​

​

So, where is the Constitution does it codify this anti-Catholic bigotry? Or, did the founders decide to instead suppress that impulse and be true to their Enlightenment Ideals of Freedom for the Individuals?

 

[whutTHEYsay]

NotfooledbyW, he just kicked your ass.

Well you must be able to answer and do what I told the little liar right here:

What majority do you think I’m blaming? And what do you think I’m blaming that majority for?

I’m saying white Protestant evangelical Christians are one religious group that repeatedly claim that America was founded as a Christian Nation. And that claim is a lie.

If you wish to denounce the above statement you need to at least try to put some substance behind your denunciation.

You owe me an answer now since your hero james bond has not produced one yet. He may have run away - who knows.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

It would be more pardonable to believe in no God at all, than to blaspheme him by the atrocious attributes of Calvin." JEFFERSON’

So, where is the Constitution does it codify this anti-Catholic bigotry? Or, did the founders decide to instead suppress that impulse and be true to their Enlightenment Ideals of Freedom for the Individuals?

They codified religious freedom by favoring no national religion. It’s why claims that America was founded as a Christian nation are false.

If you got to know Jefferson you would know that he and the other enlightenment framers were not bigoted against Catholics from
their Protestant Christian viewpoint.

In an 1820 letter to William Short, Jefferson wrote, "[T]he serious enemies are the priests of the different religious sects, to whose spells on the human mind its improvement is ominous."[11]​

Jefferson intensely opposed Calvinism. He never ceased to denounce the "blasphemous absurdity of the five points of Calvin," writing three years before his death to John Adams, "His [Calvin's] religion was demonism. If ever man worshiped a false God, he did. The being described in his five points is ... a demon of malignant spirit. It would be more pardonable to believe in no God at all, than to blaspheme him by the atrocious attributes of Calvin."[73]​

Religious views of Thomas Jefferson - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The enlightenment framers were opposed to organized religion both Protestant and Catholic.

So the enlightenment framers successfully opposed and rejected the religious bigotry that Protestant framers brought to the Constitutional Convention.

I’m glad they did - how about you?

 

[Polishprince]

It would be more pardonable to believe in no God at all, than to blaspheme him by the atrocious attributes of Calvin." JEFFERSON’

So, where is the Constitution does it codify this anti-Catholic bigotry? Or, did the founders decide to instead suppress that impulse and be true to their Enlightenment Ideals of Freedom for the Individuals?

They codified religious freedom by favoring no national religion. It’s why claims that America was founded as a Christian nation are false.

If you got to know Jefferson you would know that he and the other enlightenment framers were not bigoted against Catholics from
their Protestant Christian viewpoint.

In an 1820 letter to William Short, Jefferson wrote, "[T]he serious enemies are the priests of the different religious sects, to whose spells on the human mind its improvement is ominous."[11]​

Jefferson intensely opposed Calvinism. He never ceased to denounce the "blasphemous absurdity of the five points of Calvin," writing three years before his death to John Adams, "His [Calvin's] religion was demonism. If ever man worshiped a false God, he did. The being described in his five points is ... a demon of malignant spirit. It would be more pardonable to believe in no God at all, than to blaspheme him by the atrocious attributes of Calvin."[73]​

Religious views of Thomas Jefferson - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The enlightenment framers were opposed to organized religion both Protestant and Catholic.

So the enlightenment framers successfully opposed and rejected the religious bigotry that Protestant framers brought to the Constitutional Convention.

I’m glad they did - how about you?

In actuality, in Real Ville, the story is that the revolution occurred concurrent with the Great Awakening- which wasn't anti-God and anti-religion at all. It was just against formalized religion being ruled by powerful archbishops and ayatollahs, instead going for individual faith and independent pastors. The powerful Religious Left lost much of its cachet during that period.

 

[BreezeWood]

It would be so refreshing to have an honest discussion for once with an advocate for abortion.

.

It would be so refreshing to have an honest discussion for once with an advocate for abortion.

.
- and your purpose for the "discussion" you have not already imposed by your incendiary statements.

To state the obvious; that it is wrong to abort a human life.

To state the obvious; that it is wrong to abort a human life.

but murdering everything else in Garden Earth is ok -
.
View attachment 391463
.
you've not explained how having a vasectomy or using a condom is not the same as an abortion ... fill us in.

That is moronic. Completely moronic.

.

That is moronic. Completely moronic.

but murdering everything else in Garden Earth is ok - you've not explained how having a vasectomy or using a condom is not the same as an abortion ... fill us in.

.
don't be a coward, give it a whirll -
.
View attachment 391758
.
have you your letter from the priest, their permission for your vasectomy ... bing fixed it for himself no different than an abortion.

A sperm is not a human life you ******* moron. A fertilized egg, is. THe sperm by itself, will not grow up and one day have a family of it's own.

The fertilized egg, will. Because it is a human life. A brand new human life, with a lot of growing in front of him or her, but a human never the less.
.

What part of that, is too hard for you to understand?

.
preventative intervention is the same no matter when it occurs - and is the choice made by the individual involved - bing chose abortion for himself while denying the same to others the same as you and your self centric, qualifying motivations intervening against the lives of others you have no legitimacy being involved with.
.

The sperm is not.

you are a joke by using a condom you are preventing a birth. the very purpose of a vasectomy is the prevention of life - your doing nothing more than screaming fire in a packed theatre.

Except it obvious does matter whether the intervention occurs, before the parts come together it is parts that could become something greater if the right chain of events happens,


and later on, it is a human being.

.

Except it obvious does matter whether the intervention occurs, before the parts come together it is parts that could become something greater if the right chain of events happens,
and later on, it is a human being.

.
the line you yourself have drawn is not conciliatory, the intervention is the same result no matter when it occurs - you are nothing more than a disingenuous sociopathic zealot.

at least build and sale your chastity belt you alone have the key for, they will be forever in your debt.