LOL!! What a weak ass dodge.
YOu support churches in politics, when they support your side, but have a hissy fit, if the other side gets any support from any churches.
Evangelicals and Trump
LOL!! What a weak ass dodge.
YOu support churches in politics, when they support your side, but have a hissy fit, if the other side gets any support from any churches.
whutTHEYsay
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Do you mean the Founders were focused on avoiding the abuses of having a national religion of any creed including Christianity because of the abuses by all religions on individual liberty they read about in the history of Europe?
whutTHEYsay
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I am not opposed to religion in politics. What in the hell made you write that?
I am opposed to one particular religious group that emphatically and regularly lie about America being founded as a Christian nation.
And you do too.
whutTHEYsay
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I oppose liars and the lie that America was founded as a Christian nation but have since embraced secularism and diversity.
Why do you care so much and defend the lie that America was founded as a Christian nation when there were no limitations on religious or non-religious belief for individual US citizens established by the founders and written into the Constitution.
White Nationalists and Evangelicals are two very distinct groups. WN, are a tiny fringe. Evangelicals are a large segment of the population.
That you are conflating them, is you wace bating. Knock that stupid shit off.
You are the one that brought it up and are harping on it, like it is relevant to today's issues.
YOu asked me my opinion and I gave it.
The lack of formal legal "limitations" on religious or non-religious beliefs for individual US citizens, does not mean that the intent of the Founders was not that the nation was and would remain a vastly majority Christian nation.
whutTHEYsay
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The lack of formal legal "limitations" on religious or non-religious beliefs for individual US citizens was the result of the non-Christian founders prevailing over the Christian founders that wanted Christianity to be the national religion of the new nation going forward.
The “Christian Nation” proponents lost yet
you and your white Protestant Christian nationalist political allies keep declaring that they won. And you cannot see the absurdity of calling the losers the winners.
Well, that is the first time I have ever heard that claim.
Link to support it please.
BreezeWood
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.
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don't be a coward, give it a whirll -
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have you your letter from the priest, their permission for your vasectomy ... bing fixed it for himself no different than an abortion.
A sperm is not a human life you ******* moron. A fertilized egg, is. THe sperm by itself, will not grow up and one day have a family of it's own.
The fertilized egg, will. Because it is a human life. A brand new human life, with a lot of growing in front of him or her, but a human never the less.
The sperm is not.
What part of that, is too hard for you to understand?
whutTHEYsay
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White Protestant evangelical Christians are the largest religious group that spread the political lIe that America was founded as a Christian nation. It’s a declaration that America was from the beginning and needs to stay a CHRISTIAN NATION as it supposedly was at the founding.
That’s a declaration of belief in Christian nationalism by white evangelical Christian religious leaders. Those are the ones I’m bringing up. I’ve not lumped all white evangelical Christians into any militant White Nationalists Organization. That’s your error or diversion.
Your words from post 181
" the bullcrap alliance between Trump and white Christian nationalist evangelicals of today: "
why did you bring up their race, if not to link them with WNs?
Are you just bringing it up, because you are racist against whites?
If you had left it out, no one would have thought you were referring to some big alliance of Black Churches with TRump.
whutTHEYsay
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“America’s 18th-century Christian nationalists are losers. They lost a battle for political control of the United States to the deists Jefferson and Madison“
Here one link:
it would do you some good to read the entire Essay:
www.au.org
Maryland representative Luther Martin said that a handful of delegates to the Constitutional Convention argued for formal recognition of Christianity in the Constitution, insisting that such language was necessary in order to "hold out some distinction between the professors of Christianity and downright infidelity or paganism." But that view was not adopted, and the Constitution gave government no authority over religion. Article VI, which allows persons of all religious viewpoints to hold public office, was adopted by a unanimous vote. Through ratification of the First Amendment, observed Jefferson, the American people built a "wall of separation between church and state."
Some pastors who favored church-state union were outraged and delivered sermons asserting that the United States would not be a successful nation because its Constitution did not give special treatment to Christianity. But many others welcomed the new dawn of freedom and praised the Constitution and the First Amendment as true protectors of liberty.
Here one link:
it would do you some good to read the entire Essay:
Second, in the story of American national history, America’s 18th-century Christian nationalists are losers. They lost a battle for political control of the United States to the deists Jefferson and Madison, and to the rest of the Southern planters, whom they despised.
Here’s another link about the Christian nationalists who were losers in the newly founded America:
Is America A Christian Nation?
Is the United States a "Christian nation"? Some Americans think so. Religious Right activists and right-wing television preachers often claim that the United States was founded to be a Christian nation. Even some politicians agree. If the people who make this assertion are merely saying that...
www.au.org
Maryland representative Luther Martin said that a handful of delegates to the Constitutional Convention argued for formal recognition of Christianity in the Constitution, insisting that such language was necessary in order to "hold out some distinction between the professors of Christianity and downright infidelity or paganism." But that view was not adopted, and the Constitution gave government no authority over religion. Article VI, which allows persons of all religious viewpoints to hold public office, was adopted by a unanimous vote. Through ratification of the First Amendment, observed Jefferson, the American people built a "wall of separation between church and state."
Some pastors who favored church-state union were outraged and delivered sermons asserting that the United States would not be a successful nation because its Constitution did not give special treatment to Christianity. But many others welcomed the new dawn of freedom and praised the Constitution and the First Amendment as true protectors of liberty.
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whutTHEYsay
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Why don’t you just admit that you are an idiot? JESUS!!!!!!!!
I’m not linking anybody to anybody. I’m talking about one specific lie that is made mostly by white evangelical Christians who are nationalistic about their Christian beliefs so much they have to lie about the founding of this great nation of ours
Behind a paywall. I have to say, the opening is not very encouraging. NOr the source.
So, these "Christian Nationalists", they wanted a State Church? Or as you put it, limitations on American citizens being Christian?
whutTHEYsay
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You claimed you never heard of the fact that there were Christian nationalists during the founding who wanted Christian religion supported and included in the US Constitution as some sort of national religion. Plus the fact that the 1780s Christian nationalists lost that argument with the Deists and are thus losers because no Christian Nation was ever founded.
Having proved you are an uninformed dolt on the topic you resort to the Trump method -question the source - call it fake news.
BTW I added another link to that post.
james bond
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You do sound racist as you bring up the white race again. What if I said All Lives Matter? In today's secular environment, that is considered racist. I've never heard race had anything to do with it. It's not even mentioned in your link.
Also, you claim it's a lie when it's really a part of America's past identify. Who hasn't heard that statement if one grew up in the USA? Obviously, it still causes heated debates to this day. You are the one lying calling it "one specific lie."
Tom Paine 1949
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I didn’t particularly like the fact NotfooledbyW and Correll took this conversation back so far, but the pay-walled article NotfooledbyW linked to was excellent. It raised a part of our history rarely discussed. So here are excerpts:
Jefferson described his and Madison’s attempts in the 1780s to establish religious freedom in Virginia as “the severest contests in which I have ever been engaged.” Neither the Declaration of Independence nor the U.S. Constitution, the country’s charter documents, are partial to Christianity. The Declaration acknowledges the authority of “the Laws of Nature” and the deists’ beloved “Nature’s God.” Of the 27 grievances against the British Crown that the Declaration puts forward, not one concerns religion. Likewise, the Constitution merely recognizes “freedom of religion”; it doesn’t endorse Christianity — it doesn’t even mention it...
But there is also a neglected and fascinating history, key to American independence. Quite simply, America’s first patriots were acutely Christian and did envision, at least, an acutely Christian, which to them meant Protestant, nation. They issued the first calls for American independence. More specifically, America’s first nationalist movement was a small group of young New England writers at Yale College who were fiercely Christian. Timothy Dwight and John Trumbull were the group’s founding members, and by 1769, at the Yale College commencement, they publicly protested for American independence. Noah Webster, of dictionary fame, would later come into the group, too....
Here we have bona fide, as well as forthright and prescient, 18th-century American Christian nationalists. Of course, you won’t see them invoked by today’s Christian nationalists — for a couple of reasons....
One [reason], ironically, is that [they] wrote too much, in too much detail, about how Christian America should look. As a result, it’s obvious that their vision does not easily fit with that of today’s Christian nationalists ... [They] wanted the state to regulate almost every aspect of life, from education to commerce to religion...
Second, in the story of American national history, America’s 18th-century Christian nationalists are losers. They lost a battle for political control of the United States to the deists Jefferson and Madison, and to the rest of the Southern planters, whom they despised. In December 1814 and January 1815, during the War of 1812, these early Christian nationalists’ alienation culminated in the Hartford Convention, in which a group of their close allies, state and federal officeholders from Connecticut and Massachusetts, met and issued a series of demands.... If their demands were not met, the Hartford Convention threatened to secede from the United States. The threat misjudged the political climate, however, and helped destroy the Federalist Party that served their political vehicle....
Jefferson exulted at the Hartford Convention’s miscalculation — their “mortification,” he called it. Under any other government, he wrote, “their treasons would have been punished by the halter,” that is by execution. Hartford, to Jefferson, illustrated the New Englanders’ “religious and political tyranny.” He compared them to prostitutes.... Strong words, from one of America’s founders, against the first American patriots, and the country’s original Christian nationalists.
The history of religion and the American national founding does not offer simple support to either today’s Christian nationalists or the liberal secularists ...
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From your new link this is the closest bit of information that sort of supports your claim
": Maryland representative Luther Martin said that a handful of delegates to the Constitutional Convention argued for formal recognition of Christianity in the Constitution, insisting that such language was necessary in order to "hold out some distinction between the professors of Christianity and downright infidelity or paganism." But that view was not adopted, and the Constitution gave government no authority over religion. "
So to support your claim that white Christian Nationalist tried and lost an attempt to have Christianity embedded in the Constitution,
you have an representative talking about what other people whom he disagreed with, wanted and failed to get.
Nothing from the supposed White Christian Nationalists themselves...
The fact that the Founding Fathers wanted to allow religious freedom to all individuals does not mean that they did not intend the nation to be and/or to remain, vastly predominately Christian.
That was my point and nothing I could see in your link contradicts it.
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