Zone1 Early Christians believed that the bread and wine used in the Eucharist were transformed into the body and blood of Christ

[Foxfyre]

The account's setting was the rocks where many pagan temples (churches) had been built. The mention of keys would have called to the minds of the Jewish people the account of Prime Minister, Eliakim, who was given the keys of the House of David by King Hezekiah. What Eliakim locked would remain locked; what Eliakim unlocked would remain unlocked. This was known and accepted throughout all the land, throughout all of Judaism. Everyone would listen to and obey Eliakim until the king's return for he was acting for their king.

Peter, due to his faith in what was revealed to him about Christ by the Father, was who Jesus named Prime Minister as Eliakim had been named by King Hezekiah. To Peter (and his successors) were given the keys--and all that entails--until the King's return.

A setting of rock, remembering a well known historical event....and the community turned it's back on this, choosing division over unity.

I will respect that as your interpretation. I'm not quite convinced that is the intent of the Biblical passage though.

 

[Foxfyre]

It is disingenuous to define a term such as "Catholic", which simply applied to all believers in the early church, then proceed to claim every use of that term in history bolsters your contention that you are the true church and everyone else is on the outside.

It would be like me defining the term, "human" to mean all left-handed redheads, then looking through history and claiming every use of the word "human" bolsters my claim that only left-handed redheads are true humans.

LOL I'm not sure whether you're agreeing or disagreeing here.

"The term 'catholic' (little 'c') means universal or all who believe and accept the Christ. That is what is implied in the Apostles Creed and, depending on whose interpretation we use, the Nicene Creed. The Roman Catholic Church (large "C" on catholic) of course refers to a specific church organization to distinguish it from the east/west schism separating the Eastern Orthodox Church from what would become the RCC. (12th Century.) And to separate it from forming Protestant denominations during and following the Reformation (16rh into the 17th Century.)

Perhaps it seems arrogant to presume you belong to the 'one true Church' but I don't fault people who believe that or try to shake their belief in that.

Perhaps it seems wishy washy to others to presume that denominations don't matter all that much and all belong to the one universal Church established by a risen Jesus of Nazareth himself despite some widely differing beliefs in dogma and doctrine. But I don't fault people who believe that or try to shake their belief in that.

Ultimately when we all meet in heaven, I can envision us all having a really good laugh about how much of all this we got wrong.

 

[Meriweather]

I will respect that as your interpretation. I'm not quite convinced that is the intent of the Biblical passage though.

It's not my interpretation. I'm no scholar.

 

[Foxfyre]

It's not my interpretation. I'm no scholar.

I think you most likely are. You think critically. You reason. You read. You are intellectually honest. That pretty much meets all my definitions for scholar.

 

[Meriweather]

I think you most likely are. You think critically. You reason. You read. You are intellectually honest. That pretty much meets all my definitions for scholar.

Thank you. I do read, but I just walked the path of those who did the work and made the connections. I never would have thought of them myself, even though I had studied both stories on my own--the one in the Gospels, the one in Isaiah.

 

[ding]

You misunderstood. I wasn't quoting Christ, I was quoting what you said to had:

I know you weren't quoting Christ. My comment was about you changing what Christ said because what he said shocked you.

 

[ding]

You're completely ignoring what the poster wrote, aren't you? You said no one is saying that Christ's sacrifice is ongoing. I showed you someone who literally said exactly that, now you're refusing to talk about that.

What people say doesn't change reality. Jesus said what he said. I suggest you not add words to what he said because what he said shocks you. I'm pretty sure he intended it to shock you.

 

[ding]

I don't presume authority to tell others how much trust or faith they have. I strongly believe Jesus taught us not to presume that. Do have a pleasant evening.

If Jesus' command to eat his flesh and drink his blood shocks you, it's because you lack faith in Jesus and do not trust him.

 

[ding]

Since you ignored my other reply to that, apparently thinking it would all just go away if you pretended you didn't see it, I will remind all that you made a claim I easily showed to be false, quoting a post from this thread. Someone did indeed say something you said no one had. Now, here's the Scripture you didn't think existed:

John 19:30: When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
1 Peter 3:18: "For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God."
Hebrews 10 "And by that will, we have been sanctified through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
Romans 6 "The death He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life He lives, He lives to God."

There is no ongoing sacrifice. Scripture makes it very clear that Jesus made ONE sacrifice, it's done, it's finished. Now it's on you to explain how proclaiming the Lord's death is the same as Him continuing to sacrifice Himself and suffer.

I never said it was an ongoing sacrifice. I can only assume you tilting at this windmill because you recoil at Jesus' command to eat his flesh and drink his blood but have no scriptural basis for doing do.

 

[Foxfyre]

If Jesus' command to eat his flesh and drink his blood shocks you, it's because you lack faith in Jesus and do not trust him.

What's in it for you to tell others that they lack faith and trust? I don't do that to you or anybody else. I'm just curious re what motivates you to do that and what you think you gain by doing it.

 

[ding]

What's in it for you to tell others that they lack faith and trust? I don't do that to you or anybody else. I'm just curious re what motivates you to do that and what you think you gain by doing it.

Because you don't trust Christ when he gave a command that shocks you. That's why.

The first Christians did.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Ding, if you say shocked a few dozen more times, do you think it will come true? I'm not shocked, hadit are you shocked? I'm not shocked.
Remembering often what Jesus sacrificed is a blessing. I would be shocked if Christ had said, "drink blood often", since Rabbis know it is forbidden...

 

[ding]

Ding, if you say shocked a few dozen more times, do you think it will come true? I'm not shocked, hadit are you shocked? I'm not shocked.
Remembering often what Jesus sacrificed is a blessing. I would be shocked if Christ had said, "drink blood often", since Rabbis know it is forbidden...

Jesus said it first.

John 6:
51I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”
52The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?”
53Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
55For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
57Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”
59These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

The Words of Eternal Life.
60Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?”
61Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, “Does this shock you?
62What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?
63It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
64But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.
65And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.”
66As a result of this, many [of] his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.

 

[Foxfyre]

Because you don't trust Christ when he gave a command that shocks you. That's why.

The first Christians did.

You keep accusing me but you won't answer the question as to what's in it for you? Why do you do that? Can you explain it?

I trust the Jesus who said "He who is without sin cast the first stone. . ." (and nobody did.)

I trust the Jesus who said judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; give, and it will be given to you."

I trust the Apostle Paul's counsel to the Romans:

• "Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things." - Romans 2:1-3
• "Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God." - Romans 14:10

 

[ding]

Why do you do that? Can you explain it?

I already did.

Because you don't trust Christ when he gave a command that shocks you. That's why.

 

[Foxfyre]

I already did.

Because you don't trust Christ when he gave a command that shocks you. That's why.

Noted that you seem to be incapable of understanding the question and/or answering it. But do have a pleasant day.

 

[ding]

Noted that you seem to be incapable of understanding the question and/or answering it. But do have a pleasant day.

Apparently I am incapable of understanding your question. That's the only answer I have for the reason for posting that anyone who has to change what Christ commanded does so because they do not trust Jesus enough to accept his command as it is.

 

[ding]

Apparently hadit and The Irish Ram believe Jesus was in error when he spoke his command. Neither have considered the consequences to their belief that the word of God is infallible.

So either Jesus was infallible when he literally said, this is my body or Jesus was in error when he said, this is my body.

 

[The Irish Ram]

“Does this shock you?

We have the complete picture of what was happening back then. The disciples weren't given a primer, everything Jesus did and said was new to them. The keywords here in the scripture in question are often, and remembrance. He didn't tell the disciples to drink blood often, or eat some chunks of flesh. But when they drank wine and ate bread regularly, and were reminded to do what Jesus told them to do.
Just like when Christ told Nicodemus he needed to be born again. Jesus wasn't really promoting a vaginal reinstall. It was emblematic. We know that, but it confused Nicodemus. He was shocked at the notion.
It is ok for us not to agree on different scriptural explications, as long as we don't lose focus on Christ and the work He did on the cross for our sake. We belong to the same Heavenly family. We have the same Father...

 

[ding]

We have the complete picture of what was happening back then. The disciples weren't given a primer, everything Jesus did and said was new to them. The keywords here in scripture are often, and remembrance. He didn't tell the disciples to drink blood often, or eat some chunks of flesh. But they drank wine and ate bread regularly, and were reminded to do what Jesus told them to do
Just like when Christ told Nicodemus he needed to be born again. He wasn't really promoting a vaginal reinstall. It was emblematic. We know that, but it confused Nicodemus. He was shocked at the notion.
It is ok for us not to agree on different scriptural explications, as long as we don't lose focus on Christ and the work He did on the cross for our sake. We belong to the same Heavenly family. We have the same Father...

Jesus didn't say do it often nor did he say don't do it often. What he did say is that, "unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”