Zone1 Early Christians believed that the bread and wine used in the Eucharist were transformed into the body and blood of Christ

[ding]

That reminds me of a really legalistic church in town who had a guest preacher in from Fla. They had a prayer meeting and holy cow Bob's epilepsy was cured, and John's migraines were gone. Then Bob had a seizure before He even got home, and John's headaches never left. The church's response was, Bob and John and the others must lack faith in Christ. In truth, it was the church playing church...

That's a great rationalization for changing what Christ said to something more suitable to your tastes.

 

[Meriweather]

Then Catholics had better

You missed the point. In the etymologies, Catholic is not just open and welcome to all, but God's cosmic church which is open and welcome to all. I was not describing a denomination, but the terminology. Remember, God wants us all to be one. In God's cosmic, we are--or will be.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Luke 22:19 "This is my body, which is given for you; do this in remembrance of me".
There ya go...

 

[The Irish Ram]

That's a great rationalization for changing what Christ said to something more suitable to your tastes.

You misunderstood. I wasn't quoting Christ, I was quoting what you said to had:

So now I'm coming back and telling you that you must lack faith in Christ

 

[Meriweather]

None can tear it down; they can only not understand it....yet!!

Greg

Exactly. I believe God meets everyone where we are and draws us closer from there. hadit and The Irish Ram can picture that same thing in regards to me as I do to them. We love Jesus. He is in our hearts, and we are in his.

 

[hadit]

Not according to scripture. According to scripture, "For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes." 1 Corinthians 11:26

What scripture do you have that says what you are claiming?

You're completely ignoring what the poster wrote, aren't you? You said no one is saying that Christ's sacrifice is ongoing. I showed you someone who literally said exactly that, now you're refusing to talk about that.

 

[Foxfyre]

You don't trust Jesus enough nor have enough faith in Jesus.

I don't presume authority to tell others how much trust or faith they have. I strongly believe Jesus taught us not to presume that. Do have a pleasant evening.

 

[hadit]

Not according to scripture. According to scripture, "For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes." 1 Corinthians 11:26

What scripture do you have that says what you are claiming?

Since you ignored my other reply to that, apparently thinking it would all just go away if you pretended you didn't see it, I will remind all that you made a claim I easily showed to be false, quoting a post from this thread. Someone did indeed say something you said no one had. Now, here's the Scripture you didn't think existed:

John 19:30: When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
1 Peter 3:18: "For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God."
Hebrews 10 "And by that will, we have been sanctified through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
Romans 6 "The death He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life He lives, He lives to God."

There is no ongoing sacrifice. Scripture makes it very clear that Jesus made ONE sacrifice, it's done, it's finished. Now it's on you to explain how proclaiming the Lord's death is the same as Him continuing to sacrifice Himself and suffer.

 

[Meriweather]

Since you ignored my other reply to that, apparently thinking it would all just go away if you pretended you didn't see it, I will remind all that you made a claim I easily showed to be false, quoting a post from this thread. Someone did indeed say something you said no one had. Now, here's the Scripture you didn't think existed:

John 19:30: When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

It wasn't pure vinegar, it was gall, a weakened vinegar, mixed with cheap wine. Study closely the accounts of the Last Supper. During the Passover, people drink four cups of wine. The Last Supper accounts show Jesus drinking three. This is cause to believe that Jesus drank the fourth cup of Passover on the cross, noting "It is finished."

There is no ongoing sacrifice. Scripture makes it very clear that Jesus made ONE sacrifice, it's done, it's finished. Now it's on you to explain how proclaiming the Lord's death is the same as Him continuing to sacrifice Himself and suffer.

It's not "continuing to sacrifice", but the one event is a perpetual sacrifice for all ages.

 

[hadit]

It wasn't pure vinegar, it was gall, a weakened vinegar, mixed with cheap wine. Study closely the accounts of the Last Supper. During the Passover, people drink four cups of wine. The Last Supper accounts show Jesus drinking three. This is cause to believe that Jesus drank the fourth cup of Passover on the cross, noting "It is finished."

Okay, but the Greek term for what He said applied to business receipts as well. It literally means "paid in full". Christ's sacrifice is over and done, complete.

It's not "continuing to sacrifice", but the one event is a perpetual sacrifice for all ages.

It is a sacrifice that is applied to all ages, but some seem to be trying to make the point that communion is part of a "continuing" sacrifice, like Jesus' body and blood are being sacrificed all over again during communion.

 

[Meriweather]

Okay, but the Greek term for what He said applied to business receipts as well. It literally means "paid in full". Christ's sacrifice is over and done, complete.

Isn't it more likely Jesus spoke in Aramaic not Greek? In Aramaic the connotation is complete submission.

Jesus' teaching is over, done, complete. His earthly life, including the sacrifice of that life, is over, done, complete. But his work was not yet done. Without the resurrection it was quite unfinished. Would Christianity have emerged and thrived without the resurrection?

It is a sacrifice that is applied to all ages, but some seem to be trying to make the point that communion is part of a "continuing" sacrifice, like Jesus' body and blood are being sacrificed all over again during communion.

No ding would not be saying Jesus' body and blood is being sacrificed all over again during communion. Catholic teaching is Jesus' perpetual, perfect sacrifice is being remembered and offered during every Mass.

 

[Foxfyre]

You missed the point. In the etymologies, Catholic is not just open and welcome to all, but God's cosmic church which is open and welcome to all. I was not describing a denomination, but the terminology. Remember, God wants us all to be one. In God's cosmic, we are--or will be.

I am one of those who believes we ARE all one--ALL believers in Jesus Christ as the Son of God/God are His Church even though we may disagree on fine points of doctrine and dogma.

I know those who believe they belong or embrace the 'one true Church' don't share my belief and I allow them that. I believe all Churches start out trying to be the 'perfect Church' but because the Church, whatever the discipline or expression, is made up of human beings who fall short of perfection, so does ever denomination fall short of perfection.

But we have a loving and merciful God who, while He justly allows us the consequences of our imperfections, loves and grants us mercy.

 

[hadit]

Isn't it more likely Jesus spoke in Aramaic not Greek? In Aramaic the connotation is complete submission.

I think, no matter what language He used, He meant the sacrifice was complete and the way to the Father was now open.

Jesus' teaching is over, done, complete. His earthly life, including the sacrifice of that life, is over, done, complete. But his work was not yet done. Without the resurrection it was quite unfinished. Would Christianity have emerged and thrived without the resurrection?

Oh, absolutely not. The resurrection was the nail in the coffin for death and hell. Because of that, we no longer fear death at all. At the crucifixion, the debt of man's sin was completely paid off.

No ding would not be saying Jesus' body and blood is being sacrificed all over again during communion. Catholic teaching is Jesus' perpetual, perfect sacrifice is being remembered and offered during every Mass.

He challenged me to give Scriptural support, which I did. Maybe he's not clearly stating what he believes because it sounds like he's reflexively opposing whatever I say, something I appreciate not hearing from you.

 

[Meriweather]

I think, no matter what language He used, He meant the sacrifice was complete and the way to the Father was now open.

Throughout Jesus' life and ministry, he often said, "Your sins are forgiven; repentance for the forgiveness of sin." There wasn't a future tense involved, it was all present tense. Another theme in Jesus' life was about discerning the will of God and following it. His life was about obedience/submission to the Father.

Jesus' authority in declaring, "Your sins are forgiven" and "Repentance for the forgiveness of sins" was under question by religious authorities for there was no testament (covenant) between God and his people that sins are forgiven. In Biblical Judaism, a blood sacrifice was not required for the forgiveness of sins. A blood sacrifice was required for a testament/covenant. Jesus shed his own blood as the sign of the Covenant/Testament he had been proclaiming, following the will of the Father.

The Way to the Father is now open because we follow Jesus to the Father, and Jesus Way always was and is submission to the Father. Along the way, our sins (repented) are forgiven. We have this promise/assurance...Covenant/Testament...in Jesus' blood. This Covenant/Testament is also a promise/assurance of eternal life.

The reason the Aramaic, submission, hits home for me is scripture tells us to die to this world, and we see this world will crucify us. Submission to this fate...brings us resurrection. I don't know about your denomination but many Christian communities believe Jesus opened the way and other than believing this, little is expected of us. What if.... What if.... Jesus final word to us was a reminder: Submission. Something surely worth time in Contemplative Prayer.

 

[Meriweather]

Oh, absolutely not. The resurrection was the nail in the coffin for death and hell. Because of that, we no longer fear death at all. At the crucifixion, the debt of man's sin was completely paid off.

I was asking what if there had been no resurrection, all had been finished with Jesus' death. I don't think the resurrection was just a side note.

 

[Meriweather]

I am one of those who believes we ARE all one--ALL believers in Jesus Christ as the Son of God/God are His Church even though we may disagree on fine points of doctrine and dogma.

I know those who believe they belong or embrace the 'one true Church' don't share my belief and I allow them that. I believe all Churches start out trying to be the 'perfect Church' but because the Church, whatever the discipline or expression, is made up of human beings who fall short of perfection, so does ever denomination fall short of perfection.

But we have a loving and merciful God who, while He justly allows us the consequences of our imperfections, loves and grants us mercy.

Even as a little kid living in a family where everyone seemed to see things as black and white, I could never quite get it, as I seemed to see in all shades of grey, all different kinds of possibilities. While everyone else was coming up with their singular black and white possibility, I was rattling off ten or more possibilities. What always amazed me about this is when one of my possibilities turned out to be correct, my family happily affirmed I was the one who was right. I didn't understand this. Didn't they notice I was also wrong nine times? (They didn't seem to, happy for me that I was right.)

So, no, I'm not one who believes we are all one. I see everyone as totally unique, all different. This means I see the differences in faiths and churches as well. Where we may agree is that we, the many, the unique, the different, are all loved equally in the eyes of God. Truth may be another dimension where we all this uniqueness comes together in unexpected ways.

Perhaps it's that black-white-grey thing with me, but have you ever seen/thought of 'truth' as multi-dimensional? In the human mind truth exists as more two-dimensional--meaning our options are either True or False. Perhaps our insights on what is true is limited by our what we picture in two dimensions. What if truth is greater than that and is multi-dimensional?

Now that I have confused everyone, including myself, I'll continue on my Meri way, Weathering what may come next.

 

[Foxfyre]

Even as a little kid living in a family where everyone seemed to see things as black and white, I could never quite get it, as I seemed to see in all shades of grey, all different kinds of possibilities. While everyone else was coming up with their singular black and white possibility, I was rattling off ten or more possibilities. What always amazed me about this is when one of my possibilities turned out to be correct, my family happily affirmed I was the one who was right. I didn't understand this. Didn't they notice I was also wrong nine times? (They didn't seem to, happy for me that I was right.)

So, no, I'm not one who believes we are all one. I see everyone as totally unique, all different. This means I see the differences in faiths and churches as well. Where we may agree is that we, the many, the unique, the different, are all loved equally in the eyes of God. Truth may be another dimension where we all this uniqueness comes together in unexpected ways.

Perhaps it's that black-white-grey thing with me, but have you ever seen/thought of 'truth' as multi-dimensional? In the human mind truth exists as more two-dimensional--meaning our options are either True or False. Perhaps our insights on what is true is limited by our what we picture in two dimensions. What if truth is greater than that and is multi-dimensional?

Now that I have confused everyone, including myself, I'll continue on my Meri way, Weathering what may come next.

When I say all believers make up the ONE CHURCH, the Greek word for 'church' "ecclesia" that Jesus speaks of the in Bible means community of believers. Jesus was obviously--obvious to most theologians anyway-- speaking of believers united in Him. He did not refer to sects or schisms or groups or denominations or congregations but rather all believers.

But because all believers are human, there are very different ideas, concepts, beliefs, doctrines on how 'church' is properly done, expressed, taught, whatever. So we have many different sects, schisms, groups, denominations, congregations etc. each trying to be the 'perfect church' and, in my opinion, none ever quite reaching that mark because the Church is made up of imperfect people.

What you describe of your own critical thinking though is similar to my own experience. I have always rejected the 'herd mentality' on pretty much everything that has any variables at all. As a result I have often felt like the odd person out in the way I view, analyze, evaluate information and what I come to believe about what I believe.

So in the passage with Jesus and Peter in which Jesus said: "upon this rock I will build my church"--Matthew 16:18, was he referring to Peter himself or to what Peter had acknowledged about Jesus being the Christ? Is it Peter himself or Peter's faith or the statement itself that is the 'rock'? For those who consider all possibilities, there is no reference or resource to use to say for sure.

I myself am not certain but I respect the faith and do not try to shake the faith of those who see it in only one way. I am happy in my own faith that all who love Jesus Lord with all their heart, all their soul, all their mind to the extent of their strength and ability are his Church and are going to be okay.

 

[Meriweather]

When I say all believers make up the ONE CHURCH, the Greek word for 'church' "ecclesia" that Jesus speaks of the in Bible means community of believers. Jesus was obviously--obvious to most theologians anyway-- speaking of believers united in Him. He did not refer to sects or schisms or groups or denominations or congregations but rather all believers.

But because all believers are human, there are very different ideas, concepts, beliefs, doctrines on how 'church' is properly done, expressed, taught, whatever. So we have many different sects, schisms, groups, denominations, congregations etc. each trying to be the 'perfect church' and, in my opinion, none ever quite reaching that mark because the Church is made up of imperfect people.

What you describe of your own critical thinking though is similar to my own experience. I have always rejected the 'herd mentality' on pretty much everything that has any variables at all. As a result I have often felt like the odd person out in the way I view, analyze, evaluate information and what I come to believe about what I believe.

So in the passage with Jesus and Peter in which Jesus said: "upon this rock I will build my church"--Matthew 16:18, was he referring to Peter himself or to what Peter had acknowledged about Jesus being the Christ? Is it Peter himself or Peter's faith or the statement itself that is the 'rock'? For those who consider all possibilities, there is no reference or resource to use to say for sure.

I myself am not certain but I respect the faith and do not try to shake the faith of those who see it in only one way. I am happy in my own faith that all who love Jesus Lord with all their heart, all their soul, all their mind to the extent of their strength and ability are his Church and are going to be okay.

The account's setting was the rocks where many pagan temples (churches) had been built. The mention of keys would have called to the minds of the Jewish people the account of Prime Minister, Eliakim, who was given the keys of the House of David by King Hezekiah. What Eliakim locked would remain locked; what Eliakim unlocked would remain unlocked. This was known and accepted throughout all the land, throughout all of Judaism. Everyone would listen to and obey Eliakim until the king's return for he was acting for their king.

Peter, due to his faith in what was revealed to him about Christ by the Father, was who Jesus named Prime Minister as Eliakim had been named by King Hezekiah. To Peter (and his successors) were given the keys--and all that entails--until the King's return.

A setting of rock, remembering a well known historical event....and the community turned it's back on this, choosing division over unity.

 

[hadit]

When I say all believers make up the ONE CHURCH, the Greek word for 'church' "ecclesia" that Jesus speaks of the in Bible means community of believers. Jesus was obviously--obvious to most theologians anyway-- speaking of believers united in Him. He did not refer to sects or schisms or groups or denominations or congregations but rather all believers.

But because all believers are human, there are very different ideas, concepts, beliefs, doctrines on how 'church' is properly done, expressed, taught, whatever. So we have many different sects, schisms, groups, denominations, congregations etc. each trying to be the 'perfect church' and, in my opinion, none ever quite reaching that mark because the Church is made up of imperfect people.

What you describe of your own critical thinking though is similar to my own experience. I have always rejected the 'herd mentality' on pretty much everything that has any variables at all. As a result I have often felt like the odd person out in the way I view, analyze, evaluate information and what I come to believe about what I believe.

So in the passage with Jesus and Peter in which Jesus said: "upon this rock I will build my church"--Matthew 16:18, was he referring to Peter himself or to what Peter had acknowledged about Jesus being the Christ? Is it Peter himself or Peter's faith or the statement itself that is the 'rock'? For those who consider all possibilities, there is no reference or resource to use to say for sure.

I myself am not certain but I respect the faith and do not try to shake the faith of those who see it in only one way. I am happy in my own faith that all who love Jesus Lord with all their heart, all their soul, all their mind to the extent of their strength and ability are his Church and are going to be okay.

It is disingenuous to define a term such as "Catholic", which simply applied to all believers in the early church, then proceed to claim every use of that term in history bolsters your contention that you are the true church and everyone else is on the outside.

It would be like me defining the term, "human" to mean all left-handed redheads, then looking through history and claiming every use of the word "human" bolsters my claim that only left-handed redheads are true humans.

 

[Meriweather]

It is disingenuous to define a term such as "Catholic", which simply applied to all believers in the early church, then proceed to claim every use of that term in history bolsters your contention that you are the true church and everyone else is on the outside.

It would be like me defining the term, "human" to mean all left-handed redheads, then looking through history and claiming every use of the word "human" bolsters my claim that only left-handed redheads are true humans.

Are you looking at the Catholic Church solely as one Christian denomination? For Catholics it has a much broader definition, founded by Christ, a community not defined by a space or time. It is far reaching, even beyond the universe for it is the Body of Christ.

Community has always been an essential part of the Catholic faith--and that community, includes both the living and those who have passed on.

Because all Christian churches are a part of the Body of Christ, we don't see you on the outside. Do you see Catholics as on the outside? Do you see it as your church versus the Catholic church?