Zone1 Early Christians believed that the bread and wine used in the Eucharist were transformed into the body and blood of Christ

[ding]

Difficult to say for certain how the early Church fathers understood the elements of the Eucharist or Holy Communion.

Yes they used language to suggest the body and blood as being that of Christ rather than symbolic. But in other language they suggested these as symbolic instead of the actual flesh and blood of Jesus.

"A generation after Irenaeus, Tertullian (160–225) used the same arguments against the Gnostic heretic Marcion. However, Tertullian provided more information into how the eucharistic elements ought to be understood. Tertullian wrote:

“Having taken the bread and given it to His disciples, Jesus made it His own body, by saying, ‘This is My body,’ that is, the symbol of My body. There could not have been a symbol, however, unless there was first a true body. An empty thing or phantom is incapable of a symbol. He likewise, when mentioning the cup and making the new covenant to be sealed ‘in His blood,’ affirms the reality of His body. For no blood can belong to a body that is not a body of flesh” (Against Marcion, 4.40)."

Justin Martyr (110–165) spoke of “the bread which our Christ gave us to offer in remembrance of the Body which He assumed for the sake of those who believe in Him, for whom He also suffered, and also to the cup which He taught us to offer in the Eucharist, in commemoration of His blood"(Dialogue with Trypho, 70).

Clement of Alexandria explained that, “The Scripture, accordingly, has named wine the symbol of the sacred blood” (The Instructor, 2.2).

Origen similarly noted, “We have a symbol of gratitude to God in the bread which we call the Eucharist” (Against Celsus, 8.57).

Transubstantiation or the literal body and blood of Christ did not become doctrine in the RCC until the middle ages and certainly some believed it all that time. But obviously all did not.

How about we just take Jesus at his word?

 

[hobelim]

Yeah, that means nothing.

Exactly!

The dead know nothing. Its in the Bible. I see your rotting corpse and smell your corruption and so I believe.

 

[ding]

Exactly!

The dead know nothing. Its in the Bible. I see your rotting corpse and smell your corruption and so I believe.

Yeah, it's your standard mishmash of quotes you use to push your fake narrative about Jesus.

 

[Foxfyre]

How about we just take Jesus at his word?

If we do that then it is quite reasonable to take the bread and cup as symbolic as Jesus didn't cut off body parts or physically bleed into the cup at the "Last Supper."

At the same time I have no problem with those who believe the elements are the actual body and blood of Christ.

But then as I have often said, I think God isn't interested in our theology so much as he is interested in how we regard Him, our love for Him and by default how we treat each other.

 

[ding]

If we do that then it is quite reasonable to take the bread and cup as symbolic as Jesus didn't cut off body parts or physically bleed into the cup at the "Last Supper."

At the same time I have no problem with those who believe the elements are the actual body and blood of Christ.

But then as I have often said, I think God isn't interested in our theology so much as he is interested in how we regard Him, our love for Him and by default how we treat each other.

You are putting words in his mouth he never spoke. And when he was given a chance ti make it symbolic, he didn't. Instead he let MANY disciples leave because he refused to make it symbolic.

 

[Foxfyre]

You are putting words in his mouth he never spoke. And when he was given a chance ti make it symbolic, he didn't. Instead he let MANY disciples leave because he refused to make it symbolic.

I put no words in his mouth at all. i simply recited what the Bible tells us.

 

[ding]

I put no words in his mouth at all. i simply recited what the Bible tells us.

Maybe go back and read it then because you aren't.

John 6: 53-56
53 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

Matthew 26:26–28
26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” 27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Luke 22:19–20
19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood."


1 Corinthians 11:26-27
“For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord”

 

[Foxfyre]

Maybe go back and read it then because you aren't.

John 6: 53-56
53 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

Matthew 26:26–28
26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” 27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Luke 22:19–20
19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood."


1 Corinthians 11:26-27
“For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord”

So in John 6 was he offering himself as a sacrifice to be slaughtered and eaten by those who were in the audience? I don't think so.

Again if you want to believe his words meant literal flesh and blood, I have no problem with that. My personal belief is that like so much of his teachings, he was teaching with metaphor/symbolism but I will respect your belief as you believe it.

 

[hadit]

Your unbelief is what excludes. It's like someone joining a football game and insisting all those who are there play baseball your way.

No, it's like we start a football league and one team says they won't play with any team that doesn't have members in their fan club.

 

[hadit]

Yes, I did read what you were responding to. Did you not understand my response to your response?

You said, "His sacrifice is done and over with. "It is finished", final curtain. There is no "continuing" sacrifice." I responded with, "no one said there was." As in no one said there was a continuing sacrifice. Then I added, "apparently you lack faith in Christ." To which you replied, "did you not read what I was responding to? Go back and do that, then come back."

So now I'm coming back and telling you that you must lack faith in Christ to change what he said to make what he said more suitable to your ears. He couldn't have been more clear. He said it multiple times. He was given a chance to make it symbolic and declined. He let MANY disciples leave rather than making it symbolic. The FIRST Christians believed what Jesus told them. Why don't you?

You're not paying attention. Since you aren't, here is what I was responding to. I'll even put it in bold for you:

"It's not just a ritual in memory of the Last Supper. It's the continuing sacrifice of our Lord."

 

[Meriweather]

No, it's like we start a football league and one team says they won't play with any team that doesn't have members in their fan club.

Give it up. It is you who want to change the rules, not the Catholic Church. Catholics follow the same rites and beliefs whether you are there or not. You want change when you show up. You want special accommodations, apparently you want to be allowed to make the Eucharist what you want to make it despite the teachings Catholic profess to believe and follow.

Perhaps you didn't noticed that when a person approaches to receive communion, the Eucharistic minister holds up the host in front of you and says, "The Body of Christ." The communicant responds, "Amen," which means "truly" or "so be it."

Seriously, do you picture going up to receive communion and when the host is before you and the minister says, "Body of Christ", do you imagine yourself saying, "No it isn't, but give it to me anyway." Should you do this, the minister would bless you, but withhold communion.

 

[hadit]

Give it up. It is you who want to change the rules, not the Catholic Church. Catholics follow the same rites and beliefs whether you are there or not. You want change when you show up. You want special accommodations, apparently you want to be allowed to make the Eucharist what you want to make it despite the teachings Catholic profess to believe and follow.

Perhaps you didn't noticed that when a person approaches to receive communion, the Eucharistic minister holds up the host in front of you and says, "The Body of Christ." The communicant responds, "Amen," which means "truly" or "so be it."

Seriously, do you picture going up to receive communion and when the host is before you and the minister says, "Body of Christ", do you imagine yourself saying, "No it isn't, but give it to me anyway." Should you do this, the minister would bless you, but withhold communion.

Spin it how you like, you're still being exclusive.

 

[ding]

So in John 6 was he offering himself as a sacrifice to be slaughtered and eaten by those who were in the audience? I don't think so.

Again if you want to believe his words meant literal flesh and blood, I have no problem with that. My personal belief is that like so much of his teachings, he was teaching with metaphor/symbolism but I will respect your belief as you believe it.

You don't trust Jesus enough nor have enough faith in Jesus.

 

[ding]

You're not paying attention. Since you aren't, here is what I was responding to. I'll even put it in bold for you:

"It's not just a ritual in memory of the Last Supper. It's the continuing sacrifice of our Lord."

Not according to scripture. According to scripture, "For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes." 1 Corinthians 11:26

What scripture do you have that says what you are claiming?

 

[The Irish Ram]

God's kingdom is Catholic

Then Catholics had better learn Hebrew, because our Lord, was, is, and will always be a Jewish Rabbi. He will not be returning to the Vatican when He comes back, but to Israel. And He will set up His Kingdom in the city of David, Jerusalem. He will take into the Temple, the churches He addresses in Rev. The 7 candlesticks are Paul's churches. The Catholic Church isn't even given an honorary mention. Christ said that Peter the Rock would build His church. The church Peter built was smack in the middle of the Jews. He converted 3,000 in one day. And Peter preached in that church in Israel until his arrest.
The Catholic Church is no different from all the rest. Drenched in dogma. God doesn't care about denominations, or which dogma we attach ourselves to. If you are repentant and accept Jesus Christ as your Savior and Lord, then you will spend your eternity with Him, regardless of what building you walk into on Sat. or Sunday.
I am surrounded by Catholics, and I can't think of one that doesn't love Jesus and lives like it. Every one of them will be spending eternity with Christ. And I am so glad because I love them all...

 

[The Irish Ram]

it might sound strange and I know it is a mystery but it is; IF properly consecrated then yes but it's an odd question. I've heard of non-alcoholic wine being consecrated but not decaf coffee.

But all joking aside; it has the FORM of bread and wine but the SUBSTANCE is that of Jesus. It's what we call a mystery.

Greg

Yep, I get that.
The reason I mentioned coffee is I can't think of one person in my family that drinks wine. And yet my Dad gave thanks every morning for his daily bread and then used a sip of coffee, instead of wine, to reflect on the blood He shed for our sake, and a piece of toast to remember the horror they inflicted on Christ's body, will the Father count it as righteousness on the part of my Dad? He sure will. He could see my Dad's heart.

 

[ding]

Yep, I get that.
The reason I mentioned coffee is I can't think of one person in my family that drinks wine. And yet my Dad gave thanks every morning for his daily bread and then used a sip of coffee, instead of wine, to reflect on the blood He shed for our sake, and a piece of toast to remember the horror they inflicted on Christ's body, will the Father count it as righteousness on the part of my Dad? He sure will. He could see my Dad's heart.

With enough faith anything is possible.

 

[The Irish Ram]

It seems you think Jesus was either lying or misspoke multiple times because you can't accept the fact that Jesus can turn that bread and wine into his body and blood and still make it look like bread and wine. So you must believe that either Jesus misspoke multiple times when he said this bread is my body and this wine is my blood or that he lied when he said this bread is my body and this wine is my blood.

Personal barbs aside. Jesus picked up a goblet of the wine they were drinking, and pieces of the bread they were eating, and told them that as often as they drank wine and ate bread (every day), remember the blood I am about to shed, and my flesh that is about to be torn. And showed them what He meant. He held up the goblet of wine and said, "This is my blood" and this piece of bread is my flesh. He said, "Do this in remembrance".
Jews drinking blood was forbidden, as was cannibalism. Jesus didn't insist on either.
I think we need to put this in the category of we'll find out when we get there. Until then, we'll just have to agree to disagree to avoid any hard feelings...

 

[The Irish Ram]

So now I'm coming back and telling you that you must lack faith in Christ

That reminds me of a really legalistic church in town who had a guest preacher in from Fla. They had a prayer meeting and holy cow Bob's epilepsy was cured, and John's migraines were gone. Then Bob had a seizure before He even got home, and John's headaches never left. The church's response was, Bob and John and the others must lack faith in Christ. In truth, it was the church playing church...

 

[ding]

Personal barbs aside. Jesus picked up a goblet of the wine they were drinking, and pieces of the bread they were eating, and told them that as often as they drank wine and ate bread (every day), remember the blood I am about to shed, and my flesh that is about to be torn. And showed them what He meant. He held up the goblet of wine and said, "This is my blood" and this piece of bread is my flesh. He said, "Do this in remembrance".
Jews drinking blood was forbidden, as was cannibalism. Jesus didn't insist on either.
I think we need to put this in the category of we'll find out when we get there. Until then, we'll just have to agree to disagree to avoid any hard feelings...

That's not what he said. I suggest you stop reading into it what you want it to say. You guys make a big deal out of scripture until it doesn't say what you want it to say. He was explicit in what he said. I see no reason to change it and neither did the first Christians.