Does the size of the national debt really matter?

[Wry Catcher]

It is commonly thought that the huge debt is a drag on the economy, Paul Ryan and the GOP have adopted this putative as a basis to attack Obama, toss Bush II under the bus and impede efforts to create jobs, stimulate the economy and repair, replace and renovate our aging infrastructure.

What if Ryan and the GOP are wrong?

See:

How a student took on eminent economists on debt issue - and won

 

[editec]

Fascinating.

I am of the opinion that the debt means something real ONLY to the extend that our MONEY means something real.

And given that SOME OF US are granted the power to invent money in various ways, money that basically has NO RIGHT TO EXIST IN THE FIRST PLACE, I am of the opinion that the debt crises is entirely an artifical construct designed to keep those with power, in power.

There is no greater power in a money-driven economic system than the power to invent money at will.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Fascinating.

I am of the opinion that the debt means something real ONLY to the extend that our MONEY means something real.

And given that SOME OF US are granted the power to invent money in various ways, money that basically has NO RIGHT TO EXIST IN THE FIRST PLACE, I am of the opinion that the debt crises is entirely an artifical construct designed to keep those with power, in power.

There is no greater power in a money-driven economic system than the power to invent money at will.

Monetary policy aside, it is curious that the debt seems to be the only point of focus of concern by the GOP leadership and many of their followers. I take a panoptic view, of course if the GOP did so they would need to acknowledge the roof is leaking, the rains are sure to come and pragmatic decisions need to replace ideology.

Only real leaders would do so, and sagacious leaders in the GOP are a rare bread indeed. Taking the long view the GOP would need to repudiate their current rhetoric and admit deficit and debt reductions cannot be the only focus during a time of economic malaise.

Instead the GOP has refocused itself on the traditional wedge issues, Abortion, God, Guns, Gays and defending the wealthy and the financial services industry from the tax man, even as fees and taxes rise for the great number of our citizens. It is a policy of self interest by a party whose view of governance is to get out of the way; a nice idea in theory, not so good in practice.

 

[Norman]

It is commonly thought that the huge debt is a drag on the economy, Paul Ryan and the GOP have adopted this putative as a basis to attack Obama, toss Bush II under the bus and impede efforts to create jobs, stimulate the economy and repair, replace and renovate our aging infrastructure.

What if Ryan and the GOP are wrong?

See:

How a student took on eminent economists on debt issue - and won

Wrong about what?

Everyone agrees that the debt is a drag, including Obama, Ryan, Gop, Democrats and the study you cited.

Some people of course expect the debt to benefit you more than it costs. I don't since taking debt is just too great of an incentive for politicians to just blow your money, buying votes and doing very little that's worhwhile, or something that anyone would do with their own cash. Also since US is supposedly recovering, and is already very indebted, there is no point in taking more debt.

 

[boedicca]

I bet WC's personal balance sheet is horrifying...50 maxed out credit cards because Debt Doesn't Matter.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Fascinating.

I am of the opinion that the debt means something real ONLY to the extend that our MONEY means something real.

And given that SOME OF US are granted the power to invent money in various ways, money that basically has NO RIGHT TO EXIST IN THE FIRST PLACE, I am of the opinion that the debt crises is entirely an artifical construct designed to keep those with power, in power.

There is no greater power in a money-driven economic system than the power to invent money at will.

And given that SOME OF US are granted the power to invent money in various ways

Did you ever buy a house with a mortgage? Take out a car loan?
If so, you invented money. I won't tell if you don't.

 

[Two Thumbs]

We've been spending and that is what got us here.

leaving us 2 choices; keep spending, knowing it will get worse and worse

or

Cut spending, knowing that if it's not working, we can start spending again.


Do I really need to quote Einstein here?

 

[Mad Scientist]

Debt doesn't matter in my household, why should it matter in Government?

 

[boedicca]

Debt doesn't matter in my household, why should it matter in Government?

"What do you mean I'm out of money? I still have blank checks left!"

 

[Avorysuds]

Fascinating.

I am of the opinion that the debt means something real ONLY to the extend that our MONEY means something real.

And given that SOME OF US are granted the power to invent money in various ways, money that basically has NO RIGHT TO EXIST IN THE FIRST PLACE, I am of the opinion that the debt crises is entirely an artifical construct designed to keep those with power, in power.

There is no greater power in a money-driven economic system than the power to invent money at will.

And given that SOME OF US are granted the power to invent money in various ways

Did you ever buy a house with a mortgage? Take out a car loan?
If so, you invented money. I won't tell if you don't.

That is incorrect on so many levels it hurts knowing someone had the balls to post it.

 

[lynn63]

Most of the public debt is in the form of U.S. Treasury notes and bonds. They have no interest in paying off the deficit since that 245 billion interest payment is immediately subtracted from our yearly taxes and then earmarked for spending.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Fascinating.

I am of the opinion that the debt means something real ONLY to the extend that our MONEY means something real.

And given that SOME OF US are granted the power to invent money in various ways, money that basically has NO RIGHT TO EXIST IN THE FIRST PLACE, I am of the opinion that the debt crises is entirely an artifical construct designed to keep those with power, in power.

There is no greater power in a money-driven economic system than the power to invent money at will.

And given that SOME OF US are granted the power to invent money in various ways

Did you ever buy a house with a mortgage? Take out a car loan?
If so, you invented money. I won't tell if you don't.

That is incorrect on so many levels it hurts knowing someone had the balls to post it.

Borrowing doesn't increase the money supply? Really?

 

[Wry Catcher]

It is commonly thought that the huge debt is a drag on the economy, Paul Ryan and the GOP have adopted this putative as a basis to attack Obama, toss Bush II under the bus and impede efforts to create jobs, stimulate the economy and repair, replace and renovate our aging infrastructure.

What if Ryan and the GOP are wrong?

See:

How a student took on eminent economists on debt issue - and won

Wrong about what?

Everyone agrees that the debt is a drag, including Obama, Ryan, Gop, Democrats and the study you cited.

Some people of course expect the debt to benefit you more than it costs. I don't since taking debt is just too great of an incentive for politicians to just blow your money, buying votes and doing very little that's worhwhile, or something that anyone would do with their own cash. Also since US is supposedly recovering, and is already very indebted, there is no point in taking more debt.

Of course paying interest prevents using one's money more wisely. But the Federal Government is not a person and no one will ever foreclose on the United States. We need to create jobs and our nation's infrastructure is in need of attention. We need to raise revenues and creating jobs does just that, and we need the Congress to prioritize how best to spend the money to aid the nation, not focus on those who bribe or threaten them.

Cutting services and benefits to the aged and infirm does not make their needs go away. They will seek help from their state and local government - both of which are also cutting away bone - the fat was gone decades ago.

 

[Wry Catcher]

I bet WC's personal balance sheet is horrifying...50 maxed out credit cards because Debt Doesn't Matter.

You'd lose that bet. Suffice it to say both my wife and I have credit scores in the 800's.

 

[Skull Pilot]

It is commonly thought that the huge debt is a drag on the economy, Paul Ryan and the GOP have adopted this putative as a basis to attack Obama, toss Bush II under the bus and impede efforts to create jobs, stimulate the economy and repair, replace and renovate our aging infrastructure.

What if Ryan and the GOP are wrong?

See:

How a student took on eminent economists on debt issue - and won

If we never pay the interest or principle it's not a drag on the economy.

But sooner or later it will have to be paid.

 

[Ragnar]

It is commonly thought that the huge debt is a drag on the economy, Paul Ryan and the GOP have adopted this putative as a basis to attack Obama, toss Bush II under the bus and impede efforts to create jobs, stimulate the economy and repair, replace and renovate our aging infrastructure.

What if Ryan and the GOP are wrong?

See:

How a student took on eminent economists on debt issue - and won

Wrong about what?

Everyone agrees that the debt is a drag, including Obama, Ryan, Gop, Democrats and the study you cited.

Some people of course expect the debt to benefit you more than it costs. I don't since taking debt is just too great of an incentive for politicians to just blow your money, buying votes and doing very little that's worhwhile, or something that anyone would do with their own cash. Also since US is supposedly recovering, and is already very indebted, there is no point in taking more debt.

Of course paying interest prevents using one's money more wisely. But the Federal Government is not a person and no one will ever foreclose on the United States. We need to create jobs and our nation's infrastructure is in need of attention. We need to raise revenues and creating jobs does just that, and we need the Congress to prioritize how best to spend the money to aid the nation, not focus on those who bribe or threaten them.

Cutting services and benefits to the aged and infirm does not make their needs go away. They will seek help from their state and local government - both of which are also cutting away bone - the fat was gone decades ago.

Instead the GOP has refocused itself on the traditional wedge issues, Abortion, God, Guns, Gays and defending the wealthy and the financial services industry from the tax man...

First we need to create private sector jobs to grow the economy and raise revenues.

However, I'm more curious as to why you think we need to raise revenues and collect more taxes from the wealthy and financial services (specifically for some reason) when the whole point of the OP is, oh that's right... the size of the debt does not matter.



Too funny.

On EDIT:

Not for nothing but I forgot to add that it was the Democrat Party who "refocused itself on the traditional wedge issues, Abortion, God, Guns, Gays", not the Republicans. The Dems wanted brand spanking new gun regulations and laws and have been driving the issue through their media pals. It's the Dems who, through the ongoing writing and rewriting of Obamacare are bringing up issues like abortion, contraception and religious freedom. And finally it's the Democrats who are flopping like dominoes to a new post-election position on gay marriage. (granted, they are flip flopping to the correct position on gay marriage IMO but that's not the point) The point is your point is full of crap.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Wrong about what?

Everyone agrees that the debt is a drag, including Obama, Ryan, Gop, Democrats and the study you cited.

Some people of course expect the debt to benefit you more than it costs. I don't since taking debt is just too great of an incentive for politicians to just blow your money, buying votes and doing very little that's worhwhile, or something that anyone would do with their own cash. Also since US is supposedly recovering, and is already very indebted, there is no point in taking more debt.

Of course paying interest prevents using one's money more wisely. But the Federal Government is not a person and no one will ever foreclose on the United States. We need to create jobs and our nation's infrastructure is in need of attention. We need to raise revenues and creating jobs does just that, and we need the Congress to prioritize how best to spend the money to aid the nation, not focus on those who bribe or threaten them.

Cutting services and benefits to the aged and infirm does not make their needs go away. They will seek help from their state and local government - both of which are also cutting away bone - the fat was gone decades ago.

Instead the GOP has refocused itself on the traditional wedge issues, Abortion, God, Guns, Gays and defending the wealthy and the financial services industry from the tax man...

First we need to create private sector jobs to grow the economy and raise revenues.

Do you not know that private contractors hire private sector employees to complete government projects (roads, bridges, etc.)?

However, I'm more curious as to why you think we need to raise revenues and collect more taxes from the wealthy and financial services (specifically for some reason) when the whole point of the OP is, oh that's right... the size of the debt does not matter.



You sarcasm aside we need to reduce the annual deficits; some of the cuts advocated by Ryan and the GOP have impacts on local and state government, many of which are in fiscal trouble. I also stated spending on interest is not a good idea, but, the danger of the debt has been exaggerated for political expediency.

Too funny.

On EDIT:

Not for nothing but I forgot to add that it was the Democrat Party who "refocused itself on the traditional wedge issues, Abortion, God, Guns, Gays", not the Republicans. The Dems wanted brand spanking new gun regulations and laws and have been driving the issue through their media pals. It's the Dems who, through the ongoing writing and rewriting of Obamacare are bringing up issues like abortion, contraception and religious freedom. And finally it's the Democrats who are flopping like dominoes to a new post-election position on gay marriage. (granted, they are flip flopping to the correct position on gay marriage IMO but that's not the point) The point is your point is full of crap.

I believe too much wealth in the hands of too few is the road to hell for a demoratic republic. When the legislatures in the states (and even council members in cities and counties) and the Congress are primarily focused on their own jobs (getting reelected) we are already on that road to perdition.

 

[Decus]

I blame the electorate and the total lack of accountability required from politicians. Whoever said this was right:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover they can vote themselves largess out of the public treasury."

Third world here we come.

 

[boedicca]

I believe too much wealth in the hands of too few is the road to hell for a demoratic republic. When the legislatures in the states (and even council members in cities and counties) and the Congress are primarily focused on their own jobs (getting reelected) we are already on that road to perdition.

Then it should horrify you for the federal government to have the power to spend 25% of GDP.

 

[Ragnar]

Do you not know that private contractors hire private sector employees to complete government projects (roads, bridges, etc.)?

I am aware that over-regulated, micro-managed, easily corrupted union run, semi-private contractors are overpaid gobs of taxpayer dollars to build our shitty roads, yes and thanks for asking. The better question is why are roads and bridges "government projects" at all?

I am also aware of the failure of the Stimulus, and Cash for Clunkers (stimulus writ-small) and Solendra and all the other manifestations of robbing Peter to pay Paul and why the fail again and again.

Stimulus Jobs Vanish! - Reason.com

I do believe in government and government jobs. Cops, courts and military are easily defensible. I believe in government as the fail safe, last resort option for those who can't make it on their own or to pick those back up who occasionally fall and need something to get back up. I believe in government spending on vouchers for education. I even believe in the occasional (well defined, time limited, fiscally accountable) reach for absolute technological wonder. Man on the Moon, a cure for cancer or renewable energy or the like. (pavement does not qualify as a technological wonder btw)

But I believe deficits and debt are inherently bad. The Chinese governments share of our interest payments will, in a few short years, be equivalent their entire defense budget every year. If, unlikely as it may be, some years down the road a major conflict arose between our two countries the U.S. would be the first nation in history to fund both sides of a major war.

Again, unlikely but it anyone could "foreclose on the United States" it's China and if it came to that, they would not be alone. Anyway we could just as likely collapse on our own without any help from outside.

One last thing I know is that the difference between the "Paul Ryan budget" and the Democrat budget can be measured in thimbles full of an olympic swimming pool size economy. (nevermind Obama's budget... no one else even pays it any mind anymore)