Does raising the minimum wage reduce poverty?

[BULLDOG]

And the cost of labor has nothing to do with that decision calculus In your head?

I wasn't aware of any widespread effort for increased wages when the kiosks disappeared, or when ATMs appeared. It's just a matter of when the technology is ready.

 

[XponentialChaos]

My thoughts on minimum wage not being a free lunch? Well I think reasonable minimum wage level is well worth higher income people like myself giving up some purchasing power.

People working in fast food and most other manual, low paying jobs work as hard as others and without minimum wage laws their compensation often ends up abusively low.

I want minimal compensation for honest day's work. That's all.

Yea I get that. I mean what are your thoughts on the part I posted from your source:

“…For those reasons, a minimum-wage increase would cause a net reduction in average family income.”

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

I have a degree in mathematics, so yes, I understand basic algebra.

Is there an actual point to your post?

Yes there is. Inflation is normal as everything goes up a little bit here and there, but it doesn't cause a supply shortage because for one, we always adjust to "normal" inflation, and two, our labor shortage was caused from Dementia paying people to stay home instead of working. To my knowledge that's never been done in our country before. When industry has to compete with government for workers you know it spells trouble.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

I wasn't aware of any widespread effort for increased wages when the kiosks disappeared, or when ATMs appeared. It's just a matter of when the technology is ready.

Actually it's a matter when it's affordable and feasible for a company to make such investments.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

No question -- Raising the MW does indeed force many cheap bastards to pay their employees more, seemingly cutting into profits to which they feel entitled. However, since employee costs remain fully tax deductible, smart cheapskates end up making the same, though may have to raise their prices a bit if they couldn't already see the MW increase coming

Tax write-offs are not what people think they are. If you pay an employee 30K a year, the government does not give you that 30K back.

Any real business owner would not allow additional business costs to reduce their profit. They either cut health benefits for their employees, make them work more hours instead of hiring additional employees, increase the cost of their product or services, but they will not dig deeper into their pockets to fund the loss.

 

[Couchpotato]

I wasn't aware of any widespread effort for increased wages when the kiosks disappeared, or when ATMs appeared. It's just a matter of when the technology is ready.

A lot of considerations go into a company making those decisions. One of them is the cost of labor vs the cost of purchasing, installing and maintaining the machine that will take labors place. Raising minimum wages accelerates that process

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

So? When is the last time that you saw one of those kiosks where you had to drop your film off to get it developed, or the last time you had to go into the bank and stand in line to withdraw some of your own money? Technology has and will replace lots of workers, and those worker's wages won't change that at all.

Of course they do. These machines are not cheap. When employee costs exceed the cost of machines, that's when the business invests in them.

 

[Lesh]

Any real business owner would not allow additional business costs to reduce their profit. They either cut health benefits for their employees, make them work more hours instead of hiring additional employees, increase the cost of their product or services, but they will not dig deeper into their pockets to fund the loss.

Wow.

Your idea of business is pretty fucked up

 

[Lesh]

Tax write-offs are not what people think they are. If you pay an employee 30K a year, the government does not give you that 30K back.

If you pay an employee 30K a year that is $30K that comes off your tax liability ...moron

 

[Dragonlady]

And how many of those are there among our minimum wage workers, like maybe ten people? Why did they leave their country in the first place?

MW workers are generally kids and adults still living with their parents--not people raising a family of four or five. Even if that were the case, they shouldn't have had any children until they were financially stable.

Geez Ray, do you have to repeat every debunked myth that Republicans have about minimum wage workers. The average minimum wage worker is 27 years old. They are NOT teenagers living with their parents.

Furthermore you need people to have children. The American birth rate has fallen well below replacement rate. Without serious levels of immigration, your population numbers will decline and the population will decline.

U.S. Population Growth, an Economic Driver, Grinds to a Halt

Because the birthrate already was moving down, the push from the pandemic could result in what amounts to a scar on population growth, possibly deeper than those left by historic periods of economic turmoil such as the Great Depression.

www.wsj.com

US’s white population declines for first time ever, 2020 census finds

White population falls below 60%, underscoring what’s at stake as lawmakers begin drawing political maps

www.theguardian.com

Don't look to white people to move to the USA. You have NOTHING for us. We all have a much better quality of life where with are than we would in the USA. The only people who want to move to the USA are people who live in "shithole" countries. I've turned down multiple opportunities to move to the USA, because I have a far better life, a far better education, and far more economic opportunities here than would have ever had in the USA.

You've posted that you never married or had children you couldn't "afford a family". What kind of life is that? What kind of "freedom" is that? In order for your country to be a white majority country, white people have to be willing to have children, and right now, there are far too many people like YOU, who didn't replace yourselves for economic reasons.

You're the author of your own replacement, Ray.

Whereas our asshole signed the NAFTA Agreement and was voted back into office in the next election. Both of our major parties primarily exist to serve the moneyed interests and just continue getting away with it. We hate each other that much. Else, by now we'd also have affordable healthcare and many of those common sense, people-centric things you've mentioned.

No Reagan and Bush 41 negotiated and signed NAFTA. Bush signed the Agreement in December of 1992, because he didn't want Democrats taking credit for the conservative movement's signature piece of legislation. This was HUGE for Reagan and Bush. It transformed the economies of all three of our countries.

The Dems hated the deal and lobbied against it from Day 1. Clinton and the Dems refused to ratify NAFTA until amendments were made which would give American workers some job protections, but it pretty much passed as originally signed and with devasting impact on both of our manufacturing sectors. Canada was plunged into an immediate recession as US branch plants (opened to get around tariffs), closed up shop and took their jobs back to the states.

I must say that if you would like to re-negotiate NAFTA again, please send Donald Trump to do the deal. Our trade surplus in hard goods has tripled under Trump's NAFTA deal. Trudeau told us Canada really did well in the negotiations, and the numbers don't lie. Under $11 billion in 2016 under Obama, $34 billion as of September this year, and currently running at $5 billion a month. We could hit $50 billion this year, which is nearly $5 times what our trade surplus was in 2016.

International Trade

www.census.gov

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

If you pay an employee 30K a year that is $30K that comes off your tax liability ...moron

No, what it does is reduce the tax owed to the government because you don't pay taxes on that write-off. They don't hand you the 30K back. Trust me, I have over a hundred deductions every year. I wish they would deduct the entire write-off from what I owe or refund me the money if I didn't owe anything that year. But that's not the way it works.

 

[Lesh]

If you pay an employee 30K a year that is $30K that comes off your tax liability ...moron

No, what it does is reduce the tax owed to the government because you don't pay taxes on that write-off.

No?

We said the same thing you stupid fuck

No one said they hand it back to you. It reduces your tax LIABILITY. Do you even know what that means dumbass?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Geez Ray, do you have to repeat every debunked myth that Republicans have about minimum wage workers. The average minimum wage worker is 27 years old. They are NOT teenagers living with their parents.

Furthermore you need people to have children. The American birth rate has fallen well below replacement rate. Without serious levels of immigration, your population numbers will decline and the population will decline.

U.S. Population Growth, an Economic Driver, Grinds to a Halt

Because the birthrate already was moving down, the push from the pandemic could result in what amounts to a scar on population growth, possibly deeper than those left by historic periods of economic turmoil such as the Great Depression.

www.wsj.com

US’s white population declines for first time ever, 2020 census finds

White population falls below 60%, underscoring what’s at stake as lawmakers begin drawing political maps

www.theguardian.com

Don't look to white people to move to the USA. You have NOTHING for us. We all have a much better quality of life where with are than we would in the USA. The only people who want to move to the USA are people who live in "shithole" countries. I've turned down multiple opportunities to move to the USA, because I have a far better life, a far better education, and far more economic opportunities here than would have ever had in the USA.

You've posted that you never married or had children you couldn't "afford a family". What kind of life is that? What kind of "freedom" is that? In order for your country to be a white majority country, white people have to be willing to have children, and right now, there are far too many people like YOU, who didn't replace yourselves for economic reasons.

You're the author of your own replacement, Ray.

Why do we need an ever growing population? We have an estimated 340 million people here. We did just fine with 300 million, 280 million, and 250 million.

In any case I made a financial and personal choice of not getting married or having children, and I had the most liberating life compared to most married folks with kids. I do what I want when I want, I'm only obligated to attend doings and events I wish to attend, if I want to stay on USMB all night, I just do it. No worry about fighting with my mate on me spending too much time here, watching television, or working on the property. I do what I want when I want.

On my last job we used to get some beer at the end of Friday when we were done for the day and have bullshit sessions. The subject often came up of "what are you doing this weekend?" The married guys would complain they had to go to their kids little league game or some school play, or their wife got some tickets to a show they didn't want to go to, or they were heading out shopping for the evening. Then they'd ask me. I told them I'm stopping and getting a pizza, eat half of it at home, take a nap for a few hours, wake up and drink an 8-pack. In awe they would reply "You don't know how lucky you are!" I said it's not luck, I planned it this way.

Now for some MW stats in the US:

The percentage of hourly paid workers earning the prevailing federal minimum wage or less declined from 1.9 percent in 2019 to 1.5 percent in 2020. This remains well below the percentage of 13.4 recorded in 1979, when data were first collected on a regular basis. (See table 10.)

Age. Minimum wage workers tend to be young. Although workers under age 25 represented just under one-fifth of hourly paid workers, they made up 48 percent of those paid the federal minimum wage or less. Among employed teenagers (ages 16 to 19) paid by the hour, about 5 percent earned the minimum wage or less, compared with 1 percent of workers age 25 and older. (See tables 1 and 7.)

Characteristics of minimum wage workers, 2020

In 2020, 73.3 million workers age 16 and older in the United States were paid at hourly rates, representing 55.5 percent of all wage and salary workers. Among those paid by the hour, 247,000 workers earned exactly the prevailing federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour.

www.bls.gov

I don't know where you get your statistics at for MW in our country, but I advise you to never use that source again. But I too learned something. I thought MW workers were about 2.5% of our workforce when according to this government site, it's just a little over 1% and shrinking. Hardly enough people to destroy our economy over, or even chance it.

 

[Lesh]

In any case I made a financial and personal choice of not getting married or having children, and I had the most liberating life compared to most married folks with kids. I

Which makes you an outlier.

Not the norm

Not even normal

And yet you use yourself as an example of what people should and can do

That's as absurd as most of your nonsensical arguments.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

No?

We said the same thing you stupid fuck

No one said they hand it back to you. It reduces your tax LIABILITY. Do you even know what that means dumbass?

Tax liability is money owed to the government. If you knew what I was talking about and agree with me, then WTF did you chime in when I made the statement in the first place?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Which makes you an outlier.

Not the norm

Not even normal

And yet you use yourself as an example of what people should and can do

That's as absurd as most of your nonsensical arguments.

Man you have a terrible habit of putting words in people's mouth. WTF did I ever say I was in the norm when I decided to stay single and have kids? Yes, people can do what I do and still get married and have kids once their life is established. What's wrong with that?

 

[Lesh]

Tax liability is money owed to the government. If you knew what I was talking about and agree with me, then WTF did you chime in when I made the statement in the first place?

Hey dumbfuk.

"I" made the statement...to which you replied "no" and then said something exactly like what I said.

Jesus...how far are you into today's 8 pack?

 

[Lesh]

Man you have a terrible habit of putting words in people's mouth. WTF did I ever say I was in the norm when I decided to stay single and have kids? Yes, people can do what I do and still get married and have kids once their life is established. What's wrong with that?

You have MANY times used yourself as an example of how "easy" it is to get ahead

Have you forgotten that?

Oh wait...you just did it again.
" Yes, people can do what I do and still get married and have kids once their life is established. What's wrong with that?"

People "can" do a lot of things...but it's a LOT harder when you have kids. Of course having not ever had any...you have no idea. So you just talk out your ass.
"

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Hey dumbfuk.

"I" made the statement...to which you replied "no" and then said something exactly like what I said.

Jesus...how far are you into today's 8 pack?

No you didn't say what I said. You said deductions go against your tax liability meaning the money you owe to government. No it does not. If I spend 2K for a new tractor mower, I cannot deduct that amount from what I owe the government. All it means is that I don't have to pay taxes on that 2K.

 

[dudmuck]

Why do we need an ever growing population? We have an estimated 340 million people here. We did just fine with 300 million, 280 million, and 250 million.

In any case I made a financial and personal choice of not getting married or having children, and I had the most liberating life compared to most married folks with kids. I do what I want when I want, I'm only obligated to attend doings and events I wish to attend, if I want to stay on USMB all night, I just do it. No worry about fighting with my mate on me spending too much time here, watching television, or working on the property. I do what I want when I want.

On my last job we used to get some beer at the end of Friday when we were done for the day and have bullshit sessions. The subject often came up of "what are you doing this weekend?" The married guys would complain they had to go to their kids little league game or some school play, or their wife got some tickets to a show they didn't want to go to, or they were heading out shopping for the evening. Then they'd ask me. I told them I'm stopping and getting a pizza, eat half of it at home, take a nap for a few hours, wake up and drink an 8-pack. In awe they would reply "You don't know how lucky you are!" I said it's not luck, I planned it this way.

Now for some MW stats in the US:

The percentage of hourly paid workers earning the prevailing federal minimum wage or less declined from 1.9 percent in 2019 to 1.5 percent in 2020. This remains well below the percentage of 13.4 recorded in 1979, when data were first collected on a regular basis. (See table 10.)

Age. Minimum wage workers tend to be young. Although workers under age 25 represented just under one-fifth of hourly paid workers, they made up 48 percent of those paid the federal minimum wage or less. Among employed teenagers (ages 16 to 19) paid by the hour, about 5 percent earned the minimum wage or less, compared with 1 percent of workers age 25 and older. (See tables 1 and 7.)

Characteristics of minimum wage workers, 2020

In 2020, 73.3 million workers age 16 and older in the United States were paid at hourly rates, representing 55.5 percent of all wage and salary workers. Among those paid by the hour, 247,000 workers earned exactly the prevailing federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour.

www.bls.gov

I don't know where you get your statistics at for MW in our country, but I advise you to never use that source again. But I too learned something. I thought MW workers were about 2.5% of our workforce when according to this government site, it's just a little over 1% and shrinking. Hardly enough people to destroy our economy over, or even chance it.

its more useful to look at minimum wage workers per state, since each state has its own cost of living where minimum wage is set according to cost if living in that state