Does God Exist?

[Hollie]

If God is not vengeful or angry, you're going to have to re-write that Genesis fable. Condemning all of humanity for all eternity because of fruit theft is really petty vengeance and anger.

Which verse(s) do you see God condemning mankind?

In Romans. You aren’t aware of it?

 

[ding]

Do you believe God knows my fate? Would it be unreasonable to expect that if I follow the rules of my faith I'll get the reward that is promised me? If you took a poll and believers answered honestly, not 'humbly', I'd be a majority think they're a shoe in for the Good Place.

BTW, yes it would be unreasonable because you are conflating religion with God.

Everything I know about God comes to me from one religion or another. Where do you get your info?

Many places. Primarily the study of our surroundings which includes the study of ourselves. Using our experiences as creators who know and create as a proxy. Using reason and logic to see the forest instead of the trees. It’s pretty obvious to see how begets work in nature. It’s pretty easy to see how everything is connected and works together for good. It’s pretty easy to see our inclination to good. It’s pretty easy to see how subjectivity clouds the picture and objectivity leads to seeing reality.

If there were no people you'd be right.

With people we have air pollution, water pollution, deforestation, accelerated species extinctions, millions of tons of plastic in the oceans, etc etc

We really do fit the definition of a plague on the earth

David Attenborough - Humans are plague on Earth

Humans are a plague on the Earth that need to be controlled by limiting population growth, according to Sir David Attenborough.

www.telegraph.co.uk

You have to look at the full picture. If you want to criticize man for the bad shouldn’t he also be credited for the good?

The bad outweighs the good

Just for you.

REally?

Prove me wrong

Sure. The overwhelming vast majority of people who have walked this planet did not choose to kill themselves and actually did everything in their power to continue living.

So they must see something worth living for. Hence the good vastly outweighs the bad.

Fear of dying is not equivalent to doing good.

You said the good outweighs the bad

So what good?

Slavery, murder, genocide, human trafficking, the wanton destruction of the planet, the poisoning of water supplies,

How about those great monuments. How many slaves died building the great pyramids?

How about how we treat our fellow humans?

How many centuries were women subjugated and treated as chattel?

How many have been tortured, maimed and killed ?

Human beings have committed more atrocities than I can name in a lifetime.

We ain't that great.

You have a serious cynicism problem, bro, if all you see is the bad.

And you deny it.

Absolutely. Life is good.

 

[Hollie]

If God is not vengeful or angry, you're going to have to re-write that Genesis fable. Condemning all of humanity for all eternity because of fruit theft is really petty vengeance and anger.

The bible narrates cases when God was piss off and send plagues, diseases, etc.

Besides, God sent Adam out of the garden of Eden, and Adam was then exposed to the wilderness.

His descendants were also exposed to the wildeness because the garden of Eden was not and still is not available anymore.

Living in the wilderness each one of the descendants committed their own faults, then, wasn't God condemning all humanity but this is the case of having that each human who disobeys God condemns himself.

I’ve always found it consistent that the religions created by mankind typically reflect the cultures that created the respective gods. The Gods are even given the physical characteristics of their inventors. Similarly, religions created by mankind so often imbue the Gods with the same fears, emotions, prejudices, etc., that mankind shares.

Strange, that.

 

[Meriweather]

In Romans.

Quote it, and we can have a discussion.

 

[Meriweather]

Are those the actual words of your god or were those made up by some mere mortal?

Don't know. I wasn't there.

 

[Hollie]

In Romans.

Quote it, and we can have a discussion.

Romans 5:12. You never read it?

 

[james bond]

Sorry, not buying it. Science is skepticism, faith is acceptance. Science requires proof, faith does not.

Wrong. Science is not skepticism nor is faith acceptance. Just look up what skepticism is. Here is what acceptance is lol -- Definition of ACCEPTANCE.

Where do you get such rubbish? For example, you're not the least skeptical about evolution when it has no proof. None of it is observable and you accept things such as billions of years universe and Earth. None of that is true. It's all based on false assumptions. Otherwise, we would see a cell come into being from primordial stuff. Creation science would be destroyed. Instead, creation scientists are the one who created modern science. It's only since the 1850s when they eliminated the creation scientists from peer review that the atheist scientists have run wild with their no God hypotheses. Thus, I can state with certainty using creation science that evolution is completely wrong. Much of the people believe in fake science. Of course, most of evolution do not affect people directly so they can just go on with their lives.

 

[Hollie]

Sorry, not buying it. Science is skepticism, faith is acceptance. Science requires proof, faith does not.

Wrong. Science is not skepticism nor is faith acceptance. Just look up what skepticism is. Here is what acceptance is lol -- Definition of ACCEPTANCE.

Where do you get such rubbish? For example, you're not the least skeptical about evolution when it has no proof. None of it is observable and you accept things such as billions of years universe and Earth. None of that is true. It's all based on false assumptions. Otherwise, we would see a cell come into being from primordial stuff. Creation science would be destroyed. Instead, creation scientists are the one who created modern science. It's only since the 1850s when they eliminated the creation scientists from peer review that the atheist scientists have run wild with their no God hypotheses. Thus, I can state with certainty using creation science that evolution is completely wrong. Much of the people believe in fake science. Of course, most of evolution do not affect people directly so they can just go on with their lives.

Biological evolution has overwhelming evidence. Religious extremists deny it and make themselves quite buffoonish by doing so.

 

[Meriweather]

Romans 5:12. You never read it?

What I do not presume to read is your mind.

Romans 5:12 - Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all, inasmuch all sinned--for up to the time of the law sin was in the world, though sin is not accounted when there is no law.

Where do you see condemnation in this? Is it because while one man sinned, every man dies? You see Adam as an individual and yourself as an individual--and everyone in between also as an individual?

 

[Hollie]

Romans 5:12. You never read it?

What I do not presume to read is your mind.

Romans 5:12 - Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all, inasmuch all sinned--for up to the time of the law sin was in the world, though sin is not accounted when there is no law.

Where do you see condemnation in this? Is it because while one man sinned, every man dies? You see Adam as an individual and yourself as an individual--and everyone in between also as an individual?

I see it here:
[12] Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned….

What does Romans 5:12 mean? | BibleRef.com

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all mankind, because all sinned— - What is the meaning of Romans 5:12?

www.bibleref.com

Romans 5:12, NIV: "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--"

Romans 5:12, ESV: "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—"

Romans 5:12, KJV: "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

Romans 5:12, NASB: "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--"

Romans 5:12, NLT: "When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned."

Romans 5:12, CSB: "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, in this way death spread to all people, because all sinned."

 

[alang1216]

I believe you have built your beliefs on a very shaky foundation that does not support your elaborations. You begin with the assumption that there is a God and then you have invented you own language, "no thing".

Incorrect. I begin my analysis with two possibilities which are irreducible and mutually exclusive.

And no, I do not assume God is no thing, matter and energy cannot exist outside of space and time because the presence of matter and energy creates space and time. Hence, whatever God is he can't be matter and energy as we know it. Not to mention that matter and energy cannot be a first cause which has always existed because mater and energy will equilibrate.

Seems to me you are starting with an existing God.

moral laws which exist.

Sorry but no moral laws exist, or at least you have yet to prove any. Morality is relative to the time and place.

Your logical framework lacks any real evidence from the real world. I know you cite 'first cause' and thermodynamics but I honestly feel you are working backwards from a belief in God to a proof of God. If you started from we do know, and what we don't know, you might posit a creator but not a Jesus.

Actually the discussion discusses all the evidence. Specifically the physical, biological and moral laws of nature. For the record you still haven't refuted one single statement I provided. Not one.

It is hard to refute suppositions. You posit "moral laws of nature" with no evidence whatsoever.

 

[Meriweather]

I see it here:
[12] Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned….

Yes, and also in Paul's first letter to the Corinthians:

1 Cor. 15:21 As by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

Paul is not speaking of condemnation, but it is a very good example of how ancient man saw himself. Adam's was not an individual sin, but the sin of mankind, part of a solid whole. Flour sugar, butter, leavening and flavorings may be individual ingredients, but cake is a solid whole, not one bite flour, the next sugar, etc. In the same way that death comes to all of mankind, so does resurrection. Paul was not noting a condemnation of mankind, but rather how trouble came to mankind, and how that trouble was resolved for mankind.

 

[ding]

Seems to me you are starting with an existing God.

Then you failed to grasp the opening premise.

Sorry but no moral laws exist, or at least you have yet to prove any. Morality is relative to the time and place.

Then you must believe that all behaviors have equal outcomes.

It is hard to refute suppositions. You posit "moral laws of nature" with no evidence whatsoever.

Except I explained it in great detail and you haven’t refuted any statements made. You haven’t even attempted to do that.

 

[LittleNipper]

What you know of GOD should come from an understanding of HIS Word and not from what others tell you (man made religion).

Where did your understanding of God come from if not the scriptures of a religion? Has God talked to you or does your understanding come from what other men have written?

The Bible is a book of History, Poetry, Prophecy. There are many religions who share either the entire Bible or substantial portions of it. In reading the Word of GOD, one must be willing to regard ALL that it records and not selected portions as do some religions. One must be willing to study to discern why certain books were accepted and others rejected. In this I believe GOD has spoken to me and revealed that for example the FLOOD of Noah's time was a fact and had/has a great influence on what men are discovering. I was told by school teachers that there was no way the FLOOD happened. Yet, I now see years later that there is much more evidence available than most secular geologists are willing to share. This has been an encouragement to me and one I firmly believe GOD provided to me. 60, 70 years ago, there was little or no scientific understanding for the FLOOD. All it took was one to ponder the possibilities, and that I feel GOD instigated.

Did the Church get it right in which books were accepted and which were rejected?

God spoke to you? I'm jealous since I don't think he has done the same for me. Any details you'd care to share?

Yes, the body of Christian believers got it right with the influence of the Holy Spirit as to the correct books. It must be realized that at the time of Christ, the Old Testament was already fully selected... And yes, I do have several occasions when the Holy Spirit protected me and the circumstances were rather peculiar...

 

[barn sour]

As a non-believer, I'm completely unafraid of death. I'm terrified of dying but being dead, no problem with that since I don't believe in any afterlife.

You know what they say...There are no atheists in a fox hole.

Let the praying begin.

 

[Hollie]

I see it here:
[12] Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned….

Yes, and also in Paul's first letter to the Corinthians:

1 Cor. 15:21 As by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

Paul is not speaking of condemnation, but it is a very good example of how ancient man saw himself. Adam's was not an individual sin, but the sin of mankind, part of a solid whole. Flour sugar, butter, leavening and flavorings may be individual ingredients, but cake is a solid whole, not one bite flour, the next sugar, etc. In the same way that death comes to all of mankind, so does resurrection. Paul was not noting a condemnation of mankind, but rather how trouble came to mankind, and how that trouble was resolved for mankind.

The language in 5:12 is quite clear. I understand why you want to modify it with "....but... but.... but what about this." I can understand you want to modify what is written in 5:12 with another verse but that doesn't change what is written in 5:12. You have apparently not understood the context. 5:12 addresses the fall of man. 15:21 addresses resurrection.

Further, your opinion of the modification in a different verse is mere opinion.
How do you know? Were you there?

There a description of cafeteria religion where believers will reject what is actually written in their holy books in favor of what they would prefer to see.

I'm afraid that this loops back to the fact of many unknown authors whose tales and fables were never proofread by the gods.

 

[alang1216]

Sorry, not buying it. Science is skepticism, faith is acceptance. Science requires proof, faith does not.

Wrong. Science is not skepticism nor is faith acceptance. Just look up what skepticism is. Here is what acceptance is lol -- Definition of ACCEPTANCE.

Where do you get such rubbish? For example, you're not the least skeptical about evolution when it has no proof. None of it is observable and you accept things such as billions of years universe and Earth. None of that is true. It's all based on false assumptions. Otherwise, we would see a cell come into being from primordial stuff. Creation science would be destroyed. Instead, creation scientists are the one who created modern science. It's only since the 1850s when they eliminated the creation scientists from peer review that the atheist scientists have run wild with their no God hypotheses. Thus, I can state with certainty using creation science that evolution is completely wrong. Much of the people believe in fake science. Of course, most of evolution do not affect people directly so they can just go on with their lives.

I'm sorry but I don't have enough respect for your scientific chops to accept your statement that evolution has no proof. The trillions of fossils that we have found are proof, the biology we know is proof, the geology we know is proof. When you write "we would see a cell come into being from primordial stuff" we are show how little you understand of the science. Do you even know why I can say that?

 

[alang1216]

Sorry but no moral laws exist, or at least you have yet to prove any. Morality is relative to the time and place.

Then you must believe that all behaviors have equal outcomes.

Does the universe care about outcomes? Does the universe care that Hitler was defeated but Stalin died of natural causes?

 

[ding]

Sorry but no moral laws exist, or at least you have yet to prove any. Morality is relative to the time and place.

Then you must believe that all behaviors have equal outcomes.

Does the universe care about outcomes? Does the universe care that Hitler was defeated but Stalin died of natural causes?

Nature apparently does care about outcomes. Otherwise there wouldn’t be a preferences for life to survive built into the very fabric of living things.

 

[alang1216]

What you know of GOD should come from an understanding of HIS Word and not from what others tell you (man made religion).

Where did your understanding of God come from if not the scriptures of a religion? Has God talked to you or does your understanding come from what other men have written?

The Bible is a book of History, Poetry, Prophecy. There are many religions who share either the entire Bible or substantial portions of it. In reading the Word of GOD, one must be willing to regard ALL that it records and not selected portions as do some religions. One must be willing to study to discern why certain books were accepted and others rejected. In this I believe GOD has spoken to me and revealed that for example the FLOOD of Noah's time was a fact and had/has a great influence on what men are discovering. I was told by school teachers that there was no way the FLOOD happened. Yet, I now see years later that there is much more evidence available than most secular geologists are willing to share. This has been an encouragement to me and one I firmly believe GOD provided to me. 60, 70 years ago, there was little or no scientific understanding for the FLOOD. All it took was one to ponder the possibilities, and that I feel GOD instigated.

Did the Church get it right in which books were accepted and which were rejected?

God spoke to you? I'm jealous since I don't think he has done the same for me. Any details you'd care to share?

Yes, the body of Christian believers got it right with the influence of the Holy Spirit as to the correct books. It must be realized that at the time of Christ, the Old Testament was already fully selected... And yes, I do have several occasions when the Holy Spirit protected me and the circumstances were rather peculiar...

Yet it is generally accepted by Biblical scholars that several of Paul's letters that made it into the canon were not written by Paul even though they claim to be. It is also acknowledged that the final chapter of the Gospel Mark were added many years after the original writing.