Does God Exist?

[luchitociencia]

I had a bit of trouble following you. Adam sinned. So what is that to me? Am I guilty of sin too? You killed and maimed and have a debt to society. OK but do I also now have a debt to pay? I'm confused.

It is written that sons won't pay for the sins of their fathers, so you have a very good point.

But don't be so happy yet. The explanation you are confronting has errors, your point is acceptable, but you still are ignoring how the primeval event became a whole mess and why the messiah obeyed the order of becoming himself a human sacrifice.

 

[james bond]

Pi is in this world. e is in this world, 1/3 is in this world. All are representations of entities that are infinite in enumeration.

Haha. We were talking about how singularity can't exist because it is infinite temperature and infinite density in an invisible particle, i.e. very small quantum particle. By definition we cannot divide by zero, so that cannot exist in physics. Otherwise, if one can divide 12/0 = ∞, then 0 x n = 12. There can be no number times zero = 12. Unless you're God and can create 12 items to make 12 for example.

What you state are irrational numbers based on fractions or ratios that go on forever. If you wanted to divide a pizza pie into thirds, then you can by rounding. What we are talking about when discussing infinity is one can always add one more to it. That can't exist in nature. It violates the laws of physics.

Einstein has no way to know whether or not god plays with dice. When gravity gets high enough, it exceeds the ability of fundamental particles to maintain separate spaces. Science says that singularities DO exist. When your conversant used the term "chaos", I don't think he or she was talking about anything with which the police would get involved. The world did occur by chance and was the result of an enormous amount of randomness. There is no intelligent design behind the universe, only the laws of physics.

As for the rest, it's gobbledygook and you don't know what you are talking about. You don't know what Einstein meant when he said God does not play dice or else explain to the people here on this forum and I.

How does gravity get so high so that it exceeds the ability of fundamental particles to maintain separate spaces? Please explain.

Give us an example of singularity that exists in nature?

You can't even provide the above.

 

[james bond]

Mr @james bond knows my fate. You're awake but are you woke?

I said God knows your fate before you were born; it's predestination.

What I said was, "... I think you will go to hell. However, God knows where you will go before you were born. It's predestination. This isn't chaos theory. Mine is better than 50/50 chance or random thinking."

It was an opinion based on your thinking and attitude towards God. Unless you repent, then you won't be able to know God exists. I don't think you asked for evidence that God exists, and if you did, then you are not accepting the evidence that I've given you.

Since I am not a believer, it sounds like I'll be judged. What will that judgement be based on and will I have a shot at heaven?

We will all have final judgement after we are dead.

You can watch the following if you want an answer to your question:

Do you believe God knows my fate? Would it be unreasonable to expect that if I follow the rules of my faith I'll get the reward that is promised me? If you took a poll and believers answered honestly, not 'humbly', I'd be a majority think they're a shoe in for the Good Place.

Yes, God knows what will happen to you before you were born. No, it's not unreasonable. As for your last comment, according to the Bible we don't know when rapture occurs. Rapture is what you described as "a shoe in for the Good Place." We do not know whether it will be pre-Tribulation, mid-Tribulation, or end-Tribulation. Tribulation is said to take 7 years, but it is prophecy so it will take hundreds of years. We think Rapture takes place pre-Tribulation. Others and some believers will probably experience tribulation. They may have to get through it to be saved. That's just my opinion as I don't claim to understand the Tribulation.

What is the end times tribulation? How do we know the tribulation will last seven years? | GotQuestions.org

What is the tribulation? How do we know the tribulation will last seven years? What are the events that will occur during the end times tribulation?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[luchitociencia]

The pharisees pulled the same thing on Jesus with a woman that, by law, should have been stoned to death. Would Jesus be merciful and disobey the Law, or would he obey the Law and not show mercy to the woman? He did both. He held up the Law and told the Priests, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." And He was merciful to her by her going unharmed.

I think your interpretation is "sound" but doesn't fit with what happened over there. The main intention of Jesus was not saving the woman from death by stoning. She is just the corollary.

Justice demands that the punishment for sin is death. Not the first death, < thanks to Adam, but the second death. < The eternal one. God was 100% just to make sure that sin was paid for by death. Not ours, but His.

His?

Are you saying God sacrificed himself?

The bible says God sacrificed his Son, the messiah.

One of the last words uttered by Christ was, "Tetelestai." They used to stamp that word on a debt that was paid.
It means finished or "Paid in full." All you have to do is accept it.

Not so easy.

It happens that Jesus didn't speak Greek but Aramaic.

Plus, you are following a common error. The Greek τετέλεσται, "tetelestai" can be translated as "It is finished", with the meaning of accomplishing a task.

On the other hand, the business/debt receipts you are mentioned are found abbreviated as τετελ, "tetel" in most receipts

The only receipt with the complete word has been transcribed as τετελώνιται, "tetelonitai". This word "tetelonitai" is the one which has been abbreviated in debt receipts and its meaning is: "tax has been paid":

02710 | Berliner Papyrusdatenbank

berlpap.smb.museum

1τετελώνιται(*) διὰ πύλης
2Σοκνοπαίου {εἰσάγων}
3Πανοῦφις εἰσάγων
4[ἐ]πὶ καμήλοις δυσὶ
5[οἴ]νου κεράμια
6[ ̣ ̣]δεκα κε̣ ̣ ̣
7[Παχ]ὼν τρίτῃ καὶ
8[εἰ]κὰς(*) κγ
9 (stamp) (ἔτους) α ̣ Ἀντων[ίνου καὶ Κομμόδου ] ̣ ̣ ̣]
10Καισάρ[ων ] ̣ ̣ ̣-ca.?-]

Best for you is to discard the idea that "Tetelestai" means "paid in full" because it doesn't.

Who knows who started such fallacy with "Tetelestai". The point is that many Christians are currently following an error or a lie.

The sooner you show the error to others, the better others will understand properly the words of the New Testament.

There is no need to mention false definitions for words in order to announce the Gospel. The Truth must prevail over all things.

 

[alang1216]

I had a bit of trouble following you. Adam sinned. So what is that to me? Am I guilty of sin too? You killed and maimed and have a debt to society. OK but do I also now have a debt to pay? I'm confused. Anyway, since God can do anything and is the ultimate judge, he can cancel any debts can't he? Especially since they are owed to him.

Adam sinned and his sin changed the world. Instead of heaven, it became death Earth, for lack of a better term, where he and Eve's descendants became flesh and blood creatures. That is the result of his sin. You and I are all sinners from Adam's sin and we have to die. Death is punishment for having Adam's sin. Instead of permanent flesh and bone, we became of non-permanent flesh and blood. The evidence for this is -- don't we all die of blood disease if you live to old age -- heart attack and disease, cancer, or stroke? This is the debt we have to pay for the original sin that we bear.

No, God couldn't just cancel the sin because Satan has dominion over the Earth now. He and his demons live in the middle heaven or in our middle atmosphere just above the sky. Satan is now "god of the world and prince of the power of the air."

Follow me here. If we die without Jesus paying our ransom, then Satan will have possession of all the souls. The thinking is that there will be some kind of extinction event on Earth. Thus, if God did not come up with a way for our salvation, then all of us and our souls will belong to Satan and we end up in the Lake of Fire.

So God punishes the innocent and the guilty alike? That's not what I'd call justice.

"Satan has dominion over the Earth" So is Satan more powerful than God? If not, it is God who set up this situation and lets it continue. Satan can only take what God allows him to take. Satan can only do what God allows him to do. Satan is God's tool.

 

[alang1216]

What exactly do you believe God promised you anyway?

Justice and love.

Now I realize you don’t believe God promised you anything. We both know that. So why would you construct a belief based upon a religious text you don’t believe? Why wouldn’t you say hey from what I can observe from how my life works here is what it seems I was “promised.”

From what I can observe from how my life works here is what it seems I was “promised”: Nothing

I am curious to see if you can see anything you think you were promised through examination of the natural order and your experiences.

God promises justice and love. I see nothing being delivered. Tell me again why I should believe?

What I've learned from my experience and study is that we are but vessels for our genes. If we can pass those genes to another generation we are winners in the game of life. My genes care nothing about me, only their own survival, so I operate at a different level, culture. If I can pass on my values to another generation I am a winner in the game of life. BTW, I am a winner (knock wood).

 

[alang1216]

Do you believe God knows my fate? Would it be unreasonable to expect that if I follow the rules of my faith I'll get the reward that is promised me? If you took a poll and believers answered honestly, not 'humbly', I'd be a majority think they're a shoe in for the Good Place.

BTW, yes it would be unreasonable because you are conflating religion with God.

Everything I know about God comes to me from one religion or another. Where do you get your info?

 

[alang1216]

Justice demands that the punishment for sin is death.

Really? The punishment for taking the Lord's name in vain is the same as killing an innocent person? You seem to have a very odd definition of justice.

 

[alang1216]

Humble?

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need

.

Would you prefer politically correct? Have you found that grace? Do you know that you are going to heaven?

Yep. His grace is sufficient. And yes, I do know that I am going to Heaven. If I am not, then God is a liar. And He is not. I am covered by the blood Christ shed on the cross.

Thank you for your honesty. I'm not a believer but I hope you are correct about your fate.

ding, you said you "don’t know your fate". How come? Want to change your answer now?

 

[alang1216]

But don't be so happy yet. The explanation you are confronting has errors, your point is acceptable, but you still are ignoring how the primeval event became a whole mess and why the messiah obeyed the order of becoming himself a human sacrifice.

If the messiah is God and you can't 'order' yourself to do something, he didn't "obey" any order, he made a choice to become a human sacrifice to himself. Is that true?

 

[Blues Man]

If a god told you what to write would you sneak in your opinions or would you write exactly what he told you to write?
If it's some guy's opinion then it cannot be the word of a god.

And if the English translation is so poor why then don't Christian religions study it in the original language?

How much of the bible you use is actually an instruction manual from your god and how much is made up by some guy?

Maybe Genesis is made up or misunderstood

Maybe the 10 Commandments are a plagiarism of some other philosopher.

So? Why tear down the Bible?

My understanding of the Bible is not your understanding. The point I am trying to get across is that people understand the Bible and its purposes very differently. Why don't Christians study in the original language? Some do. And some study Biblical culture and history. This takes years, decades. So, what most get from Church (because they don't have decades to study) is a quick summary. Then, those who believe they can read and understand the Bible on their own, do not even get that. They get their own misconceptions served back to them in what they think must be the real truth. Mistaking misconceptions for real truth, can cause bitterness towards both the Bible and God (not to mention religion).

Don't forget to discount your own misconceptions

How do you know what parts of the bible are actually the word of your god and the ones that are not?

 

[Blues Man]

If a god told you what to write would you sneak in your opinions or would you write exactly what he told you to write?
If it's some guy's opinion then it cannot be the word of a god.

Very good input.

However, the bible is not only instructions and opinions. It has history and prophecy.

Lets say, you want to know the laws of this country. Yes, you can go to a library and pull law books and learn. However, you won't fully understand those laws without learning the history of the US.

Same as well when you go to each other coutry of the world, which has different laws to be understood better when knowing their culture.

And if the English translation is so poor why then don't Christian religions study it in the original language?

The "original copies" in Hebrew have also lots of errors and some of them guide to misinterpretations. The errors are so tricky that the greater rabbis from the past were tricked by their own "tradition" as well the current rabbis keep following the mistakes.

The human errors found in the bible won't mean the essence of the teachings are affected.

How much of the bible you use is actually an instruction manual from your god and how much is made up by some guy?

The whole book is an instruction manual. When I was studying a book about criminal justice, some laws were mentioned and examples of their breaking and the out coming (consequences and recompense) are shown, so you can have a better idea of what those laws mean, their purpose, etc.

Maybe Genesis is made up or misunderstood

The second.

Maybe the 10 Commandments are a plagiarism of some other philosopher.

Yes, maybe, but there is no evidence to back up such assumption.

There is no evidence to discount it either.

You said yourself that the bible is not the literal word of your god but rather a mere interpretation by men so how can you with any certainty say what is or is not the actual word of your god?

 

[Blues Man]

If a god told you what to write would you sneak in your opinions or would you write exactly what he told you to write?
If it's some guy's opinion then it cannot be the word of a god.

Very good input.

However, the bible is not only instructions and opinions. It has history and prophecy.

Lets say, you want to know the laws of this country. Yes, you can go to a library and pull law books and learn. However, you won't fully understand those laws without learning the history of the US.

Same as well when you go to each other coutry of the world, which has different laws to be understood better when knowing their culture.

And if the English translation is so poor why then don't Christian religions study it in the original language?

The "original copies" in Hebrew have also lots of errors and some of them guide to misinterpretations. The errors are so tricky that the greater rabbis from the past were tricked by their own "tradition" as well the current rabbis keep following the mistakes.

The human errors found in the bible won't mean the essence of the teachings are affected.

How much of the bible you use is actually an instruction manual from your god and how much is made up by some guy?

The whole book is an instruction manual. When I was studying a book about criminal justice, some laws were mentioned and examples of their breaking and the out coming (consequences and recompense) are shown, so you can have a better idea of what those laws mean, their purpose, etc.

Maybe Genesis is made up or misunderstood

The second.

Maybe the 10 Commandments are a plagiarism of some other philosopher.

Yes, maybe, but there is no evidence to back up such assumption.

There is no evidence to discount it either. We do know that there have been codified laws in existence prior to the bible that dealt with murder, theft etc

You said yourself that the bible is not the literal word of your god but rather a mere interpretation by men so how can you with any certainty say what is or is not the actual word of your god?[/QUOTE]

 

[Blues Man]

The certainly talked about how they should be worshiped

God talked how he must be worshiped.

The messiah talked how to properly worship God

Doesn't the holy trinity mumbo jumbo say all three are the same Father Son holy Spirit?

 

[alang1216]

Mr @james bond knows my fate. You're awake but are you woke?

I said God knows your fate before you were born; it's predestination.

What I said was, "... I think you will go to hell. However, God knows where you will go before you were born. It's predestination. This isn't chaos theory. Mine is better than 50/50 chance or random thinking."

It was an opinion based on your thinking and attitude towards God. Unless you repent, then you won't be able to know God exists. I don't think you asked for evidence that God exists, and if you did, then you are not accepting the evidence that I've given you.

Since I am not a believer, it sounds like I'll be judged. What will that judgement be based on and will I have a shot at heaven?

We will all have final judgement after we are dead.

You can watch the following if you want an answer to your question:

Do you believe God knows my fate? Would it be unreasonable to expect that if I follow the rules of my faith I'll get the reward that is promised me? If you took a poll and believers answered honestly, not 'humbly', I'd be a majority think they're a shoe in for the Good Place.

Yes, God knows what will happen to you before you were born. No, it's not unreasonable. As for your last comment, according to the Bible we don't know when rapture occurs. Rapture is what you described as "a shoe in for the Good Place." We do not know whether it will be pre-Tribulation, mid-Tribulation, or end-Tribulation. Tribulation is said to take 7 years, but it is prophecy so it will take hundreds of years. We think Rapture takes place pre-Tribulation. Others and some believers will probably experience tribulation. They may have to get through it to be saved. That's just my opinion as I don't claim to understand the Tribulation.

What is the end times tribulation? How do we know the tribulation will last seven years? | GotQuestions.org

What is the tribulation? How do we know the tribulation will last seven years? What are the events that will occur during the end times tribulation?

www.gotquestions.org

Thanks for the correction, let me rephrase:
Mr james bond thinks he knows my fate.

You said God knows my fate before I was born; it's predestination. Here's a question that has always bugged me: Did God create me or am I just a random assemblage that God had no input into? He may know my outcome but he didn't actually assemble me.

 

[Blues Man]

It's worse than that. They are essentially telling their God what to do.

Or, it is essentially trusting in God's promises and covenants.

or what some mere mortal interpreted as your god's promises

 

[Blues Man]

don't forget that the "laws" of physics are derived from our understanding of a mere 5% of the universe.

So they are hardly the gold standard

Ha! And how are you so sure you have understood a 5% of the universe? That is arrogance...

I think you are dreaming a lot. Lol.

The human race as a whole.

Look it up

 

[ding]

Justice and love.

Why do you believe God promised you that? Do you believe God owes you something?

I think what you are trying to say here is that people who do believe in God believe God promises justice and love.

From what I can observe from how my life works here is what it seems I was “promised”: Nothing

That’s just because you can’t see it. You are too busy arguing against believers who do believe they were promised justice and mercy.

But if you weren’t so busy trying to confirm your bias you just might have been able to see that you were promised the rarest and most precious gift in existence. Life as a being that knows and creates.

God promises justice and love. I see nothing being delivered. Tell me again why I should believe?

Again, you don’t believe this. You literally just contradicted yourself in the same post. Of course if you believe God promised you nothing that you won’t be able to find how the promise of justice and love has been delivered.

Why should you believe? Because clearly you want to believe. That’s why you are here. Maybe one day you will figure out how faith enriches the journey before your journey ends.

What I've learned from my experience and study is that we are but vessels for our genes. If we can pass those genes to another generation we are winners in the game of life. My genes care nothing about me, only their own survival, so I operate at a different level, culture. If I can pass on my values to another generation I am a winner in the game of life. BTW, I am a winner (knock wood).

But according to your worldview winning is meaningless. Which goes a long way in explaining your cynicism. It seems you have outsmarted yourself with your higher order intelligence that can’t see the forest for the trees.

 

[ding]

Do you believe God knows my fate? Would it be unreasonable to expect that if I follow the rules of my faith I'll get the reward that is promised me? If you took a poll and believers answered honestly, not 'humbly', I'd be a majority think they're a shoe in for the Good Place.

BTW, yes it would be unreasonable because you are conflating religion with God.

Everything I know about God comes to me from one religion or another. Where do you get your info?

Many places. Primarily the study of our surroundings which includes the study of ourselves. Using our experiences as creators who know and create as a proxy. Using reason and logic to see the forest instead of the trees. It’s pretty obvious to see how begets work in nature. It’s pretty easy to see how everything is connected and works together for good. It’s pretty easy to see our inclination to good. It’s pretty easy to see how subjectivity clouds the picture and objectivity leads to seeing reality.

 

[Blues Man]

Do you believe God knows my fate? Would it be unreasonable to expect that if I follow the rules of my faith I'll get the reward that is promised me? If you took a poll and believers answered honestly, not 'humbly', I'd be a majority think they're a shoe in for the Good Place.

BTW, yes it would be unreasonable because you are conflating religion with God.

Everything I know about God comes to me from one religion or another. Where do you get your info?

Many places. Primarily the study of our surroundings which includes the study of ourselves. Using our experiences as creators who know and create as a proxy. Using reason and logic to see the forest instead of the trees. It’s pretty obvious to see how begets work in nature. It’s pretty easy to see how everything is connected and works together for good. It’s pretty easy to see our inclination to good. It’s pretty easy to see how subjectivity clouds the picture and objectivity leads to seeing reality.

If there were no people you'd be right.

With people we have air pollution, water pollution, deforestation, accelerated species extinctions, millions of tons of plastic in the oceans, etc etc

We really do fit the definition of a plague on the earth

David Attenborough - Humans are plague on Earth

Humans are a plague on the Earth that need to be controlled by limiting population growth, according to Sir David Attenborough.

www.telegraph.co.uk