Do YOU support Trump’s last ditch effort to convince Republican state legislatures to APPOINT pro-Trump Electors?

[Skylar]

If they don't.....then they no longer possess the constitutional authority to select the electors for that election. The people who vote do.

No. The people do not unless the laws say they do. Under the circumstances as outlined by the laws of the state. Which is what we are talking about.

The thing that decides the factors, is the deciding factor.

One, the law says they do.

Two, if the state legislatures can't take back their authority from the people to decide how electors are selected.....then that authority is not longer the State Legislatures for that election. That authority is possessed by the people who voted.

Where is that written, douchebag? The state legislature always has the authority. That's what the Constitution says. You're living in a fantasy land.

The decider.....is the body that possesses the authority. Not the body from which the authority was derived.

Otherwise, by your own argument.....the State Legislatures aren't the deciders, the constitution is. As they derive their authority from the Constitution. And since the authority of the Constitution is derived from the consent of the governed.....its the people from which the constitution derives its authority.

With the people, yet again, being the deciders......by your own logic. And certainly by mine.

You're a true idiot.

Read back through the debate for us both addressing that exact issue.

Catch up, then join us.

You addressed nothing. You proved that your an idiot. Only the legislature has authority to make election law. That's what the Constitution says.

And once they've made those laws, do the State Legislatures have to abide them?

They can change the law whenever they like

Sure a state can change it's laws. Governors can veto the change. They cannot switch electors after Dec. 8th.

More to the point they can't end-around their own laws that were in place when the election was held. Not without a time machine. That's banana republic-level chicanery. The very idea is absurd.

There's no indication they will.

 

[Pogo]

Article 2 - the bottom line.

"Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress; but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector."

Correct. I've posted that article about 22 thousand times. And the Legislatures thereof ALREADY DIRECTED and codified how it works. To disregard their own law would require declaring that the law in effect on November 3 2020, was not in effect on November 3, 2020. That's impossible.

 

[Pogo]

You proved that your [sic] an idiot

This is what's so hilarious about Fingerboy. He brings his own petard.

 

[ThisIsMe]

There is zero chance of this happening

I hope. The fact is the dems outnumber the gopers. I'm confident that conservatism can be popular with immigrants. But not as it's practiced now, and certainly not if we resemble the countries people emigrated from.

The problem with the conservative message isn't the message. Its the conservatives. The xenophobia, the over-sensitivity to low probability threats and the white supremacy tend to turn off immigrants. As most conservatives don't actually believe the values they claim to support.

I mean....family values? Government transparency? Democracy? Fiscal responsibility? Personal responsibility? Foreign policy?

The modern GOP has wiped their asses with all of these ideals. And conservatives have supported them in it.

So why would immigrants to drawn to a message that its own adherents don't believe in, while ignoring the xenophobia, paranoia and white supremacy that these same adherents DO believe in?

Generally, they don't.

The problem with conservatives is the left wing media. None of what you just wrote is true, in any verifiable systemic way. Sure, all those things exist on an individual basis, but not as an overarching theme of the republican party as a whole.

Left wing media fabricated every narrative you just listed by mostly made up stories or out of context statements twisted to fit their talking points. Then, they hammered that into your heads for 4 straight years.

If people would turn off left wing talk shows, the hate would disappear.

 

[Lesh]

Article 2 - the bottom line.

"Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress; but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector."

Correct. I've posted that article about 22 thousand times. And the Legislatures thereof ALREADY DIRECTED and codified how it works. To disregard their own law would require declaring that the law in effect on November 3 2020, was not in effect on November 3, 2020. That's impossible.

Exactly. It is illegal for state legislatures to send electors to the EC who do not represent the voters as voted.

ILLEGAL

That is what Trump is trying to do

 

[Lesh]

If people would turn off left wing talk shows, the hate would disappear.

Wow. You got it exactly backwards

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Well, there have been some useful comments on legal matters, and a few Trump fanatics have shown as expected that they don’t care a whit about the popular vote of the people or the health of our Republic. But relatively few normal or traditional Republican types — those not Trump “fanatics” — have spoken up.

Those who despise Trump as I do, and traditional Democrats too, have a clear attitude about Trump’s toying with a “soft coup” — we despise him and any who follow him in this. But significant numbers of ordinary Republicans need to reject such undemocratic measures if their own party expects to “save itself” — at least in my view.

 

[Shelzin]

There is no evidence that it wasn't a fair election. Just talk by a sore loser who seeks revenge by hamstringing the incoming administration. He told us he would do this in 2016 if he lost then too.

There is evidence. You just aren't being honest if you say otherwise. I just don't know if it's widespread enough to mean anything. I wouldn't be honest not adding that in.

 

[gtopa1]

If Trump has to go I want to see him defying every effort to oust him to the bitter end; Dems have shown what disgusting scum they are by usurping the election; stuff them!!!

Greg

 

[Shelzin]

But significant numbers of ordinary Republicans need to reject such undemocratic measures if their own party expects to “save itself” — at least in my view.

While I respect your view, and certainly how you present it... I don't understand it. I have absolutely no love for the RNC... But it's hardly dying. You don't gain seats in the house and say it's... Dying. o.0

 

[Nosmo King]

If Trump has to go I want to see him defying every effort to oust him to the bitter end; Dems have shown what disgusting scum they are by usurping the election; stuff them!!!

Greg

You know what an election is, right? When one candidates gets more votes than another candidate, the one with more votes wins. It's not up to the loser to defy every effort to oust him after the votes are counted. This is what we call 'democracy'. What yo are calling for is called 'sore loser' at best, 'authoritarian' at worst. Is that how you would want to govern?

 

[Lesh]

There is no evidence that it wasn't a fair election. Just talk by a sore loser who seeks revenge by hamstringing the incoming administration. He told us he would do this in 2016 if he lost then too.

There is evidence. You just aren't being honest if you say otherwise. I just don't know if it's widespread enough to mean anything. I wouldn't be honest not adding that in.

If there is evidence...it certainly hasn't shown up in any of the 30 or so court cases that the Trump campaign has either lost or abandoned.

Can you point to it? I mean beyond insane claims of a machine deposited in Germany by Martians or ANTIFA or whatever?

 

[Shelzin]

If there is evidence...it certainly hasn't shown up in any of the 30 or so court cases that the Trump campaign has either lost or abandoned.

Trump campaign has three cases I'm aware of. Three. There are other cases that have been lost, but they weren't actually Trump campaign.

Can you point to it? I mean beyond insane claims of a machine deposited in Germany by Martians or ANTIFA or whatever?

They found thousands of votes dude. There is evidence here on these boards, we've talked about it. It's not in question. Yes... I can point to it. I think I'd rather make you go through my posts. *ponders* Actually you were polite, I'm just moody today for some reason. Self evaluation is hard sometimes. brb

Edit: https://www.usmessageboard.com/thre...s-suddenly-appear.864250/page-3#post-25941751

Now... Understand that this is like a sample... When elections are like within 12k votes of each other... I get why they want to actually LOOK for invalid votes, rather than just counting them again.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

But significant numbers of ordinary Republicans need to reject such undemocratic measures if their own party expects to “save itself” — at least in my view.

While I respect your view, and certainly how you present it... I don't understand it. I have absolutely no love for the RNC... But it's hardly dying. You don't gain seats in the house and say it's... Dying. o.0

Well, you may have a point there. When I said the Republican Party could not “save itself” without rejecting Trump’s insanity ... I meant as the Republican Party of Lincoln, Eisenhower, etc. There is a real possibility that it will transform into something else entirely: a new ultra-nationalist American “Know Nothing” Party which is both anti-republican and anti-democratic.

 

[Lesh]

Trump campaign has three cases I'm aware of. Three. There are other cases that have been lost, but they weren't actually Trump campaign.

One case concerns 600 votes
Another concerns the votes that were allowed (and then disputed) to be returned for three days after the election. Those votes amounted to 10,000 and were segregated because of the potential for legal challenge.
Between the two they don't come CLOSE to making a difference.
The third is pending and is nearly identical to one already dimissed

They found thousands of votes dude. There is evidence here on these boards

"Evidence on these boards"? Oddly no evidence presented in any of the 30 or so cases that have mostly been dismissed or withdrawn (for lack of evidence or standing)

Now... Understand that this is like a sample... When elections are like within 12k votes of each other.

Neither PA not Michigan are anywhere near that close.

They WERE that close when Trump won and none of these shenanigans went on

 

[Zorro!]

I wonder what most ordinary Republicans would say and do if Trump were to convince Republican-controlled legislatures (as in Georgia & Michigan) to ignore the statewide popular vote for Biden, dismiss it as fraudulent on the basis of no real court-certified evidence, and appoint Republican Electors to re-elect Trump?

That now seems to be his “Plan C.” In the unlikely and god-awful case that he became President in this way, Trump and his Republican supporters would truly be leading us to Civil War. It would be an historical point marking the degeneration of our democratic traditions, and the transformation of our country into a rightwing “Banana Republic.”

Sad to say, this undemocratic attempt at a “coup” is exactly what Trump seems to be trying to do right now, as outlined clearly in this FOX report. Do YOU support such conduct? Where do our Republican USMBers — especially those claiming to be critical of Trump in some ways — stand on such efforts?

Trump to meet Michigan leaders in bid to block Biden victory

Two Michigan state legislators headed to the White House on Friday as President Donald Trump made an extraordinary and sure-to-be futile attempt to block Joe Biden’s victory in the battleground state and subvert the results of the 2020 presidential election.

www.fox5dc.com

Looks like Fake News. What State legislatures are on the record favoring that course in this election? But of course, they aren't bound by illegal votes, that's why the State Legislature is constitutionally charged with the final decision on selecting electors.

But, I can see why you are running scared.

Dominion Voting Systems ‘Lawyers Up,’ Abruptly Backs Out of PA State House Fact-Finding Hearing.

State Govt Committee Chair Seth Grove said the 1.3. million Pennsylvanians who used Dominion’s voting machines have been “hung out to dry and slapped in their faces.”

Pennsylvania lawmakers had scheduled the hearing with the voting machine manufacturer “to help identify and correct any irregularities in the election process,” according to the House Republican Caucus.

“It is vitally important voters have faith in the machines they use to cast their ballots. On the heels of Gov. Tom Wolf unilaterally decertifying every voting machine in the Commonwealth, we need to know whether these new machines met expectations, whether they are reliable and whether they are not subject to interference,” said Rep. Grove (R-York).

Dominion had initially agreed to attend the hearing, before it “abruptly canceled,” Grove said.

“I was impressed at what appeared to be the willingness that Dominion Voting Systems to address accusations and it would have put 1.3. million Pennsylvanians who used their machines at ease—including myself, thinking that Dominion was willing to publicly back up their product which PA taxpayers invested millions to purchase” he noted during the presser. “Unfortunately, last evening, Dominion Voting Systems lawyered up, and backed out of their commitment to the people of Pennsylvania to provide their input in a public format.”

Grove blasted the company for “retreating into the darkness,” rather than appearing at the hearing with “honesty and integrity.”

The committee chair said he wanted to know why a company with nothing to hide would back out.

“Why would a vender of public goods fear discussing their product sold to the public for the public good? If Dominion’s products were successful and operated as they were supposed to, why wouldn’t Dominion take the opportunity to publicly review its success?” Grove demanded. “How hard is it to say, ‘our ballot machines worked exactly as promised and they’re 100 percent accurate’?”

“After weeks of accusations, why has Dominion Voting Systems not released any analysis of the success of its voting machines to the public in order to stop their accusers in their tracks? If they have nothing to hide, why are they hiding from us?” he asked.

“Today I am saddened to report to the taxpayers of Pennsylvania and the 1.3 million voters who trusted Dominion Voting Systems with their ballots, that Dominion Voting Systems has hung you out to dry and slapped you in your faces.” the committee chair declared.

Grove stated that Dominion’s behavior lent credibility to their accusers’ accusations.

Well, hiding isn't going to work, hiding is a tacit admission that they can't be trusted, but, our Framers foresaw this, the final authority are the elected Legislature of the Commonwealth who will chose Electors on basis of what they perceive as the will of their constituents. So, our constitutional democracy remains in the good hands of our trusted representatives.

 

[Zorro!]

But significant numbers of ordinary Republicans need to reject such undemocratic measures if their own party expects to “save itself” — at least in my view.

While I respect your view, and certainly how you present it... I don't understand it. I have absolutely no love for the RNC... But it's hardly dying. You don't gain seats in the house and say it's... Dying. o.0

Well, you may have a point there. When I said the Republican Party could not “save itself” without rejecting Trump’s insanity ... I meant as the Republican Party of Lincoln, Eisenhower, etc. There is a real possibility that it will transform into something else entirely: a new ultra-nationalist American “Know Nothing” Party which is both anti-republican and anti-democratic.

Fake News. The Republican Party is doing just fine as the representatives of the sane Working and Middle Class always welcoming to rural and those of faith.

 

[Shelzin]

Well, you may have a point there. When I said the Republican Party could not “save itself” without rejecting Trump’s insanity ... I meant as the Republican Party of Lincoln, Eisenhower, etc. There is a real possibility that it will transform into something else entirely: a new ultra-nationalist American “Know Nothing” Party which is both anti-republican and anti-democratic.

I agree with the "anti-republican" and I say .... GOOD. The RNC and the DNC have both gone insane. I don't see how anti-democratic comes into it. The republican party hasn't been "Lincoln, Eisenhower, etc." for decades. You say they are going to lose it, I say it's already gone.

Lord knows with AOC and... well.. That group... Can you honestly say it's moved to a better party?

This whole slew of crap just proves we need VERIFIABLE votes after the fact. We can agree on this.. yes?

 

[Shelzin]

One case concerns 600 votes
Another concerns the votes that were allowed (and then disputed) to be returned for three days after the election. Those votes amounted to 10,000 and were segregated because of the potential for legal challenge.
Between the two they don't come CLOSE to making a difference.
The third is pending and is nearly identical to one already dimissed

Those are samples... They are there to show that there is a greater something going on. That's just what was caught, and why it should be gone through.

"Evidence on these boards"? Oddly no evidence presented in any of the 30 or so cases that have mostly been dismissed or withdrawn (for lack of evidence or standing)

Ok... You missed it the first time somehow. The Trump campaign only has like THREE cases.

Those other cases are from citizens or other organizations. If all it takes is lost cases to disprove a stance... Wouldn't it make sense to sue for stupid shit and have it thrown out to discredit the stance?

That's why the Trump campaign has so few cases. They need them to win. I don't know if they will or not. I'm actually guessing not. Either way, if they don't win them then obviously they didn't have the proof.

Neither PA not Michigan are anywhere near that close.

They WERE that close when Trump won and none of these shenanigans went on

I was actually talking about Georgia. I don't know what the final count was, but it was between 10-15 thousand.

And for the life of me I still can't figure out why the hell we have countries outside of our own owning companies that count votes. That's just flat out retarded.

Again though... You get the sample to prove that things aren't on the up and up. Yes... There is fraud, on a small scale. You found it. How far does it go? In order to know that, you actually have to do more than just count the ballots again. Counting them again doesn't show they were legal in the first place.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

I wonder what most ordinary Republicans would say and do if Trump were to convince Republican-controlled legislatures (as in Georgia & Michigan) to ignore the statewide popular vote for Biden, dismiss it as fraudulent on the basis of no real court-certified evidence, and appoint Republican Electors to re-elect Trump?

That now seems to be his “Plan C.” In the unlikely and god-awful case that he became President in this way, Trump and his Republican supporters would truly be leading us to Civil War. It would be an historical point marking the degeneration of our democratic traditions, and the transformation of our country into a rightwing “Banana Republic.”

Sad to say, this undemocratic attempt at a “coup” is exactly what Trump seems to be trying to do right now, as outlined clearly in this FOX report. Do YOU support such conduct? Where do our Republican USMBers — especially those claiming to be critical of Trump in some ways — stand on such efforts?

Trump to meet Michigan leaders in bid to block Biden victory

Two Michigan state legislators headed to the White House on Friday as President Donald Trump made an extraordinary and sure-to-be futile attempt to block Joe Biden’s victory in the battleground state and subvert the results of the 2020 presidential election.

www.fox5dc.com

Looks like Fake News. What State legislatures are on the record favoring that course in this election? But of course, they aren't bound by illegal votes, that's why the State Legislature is constitutionally charged with the final decision on selecting electors.

But, I can see why you are running scared.

Dominion Voting Systems ‘Lawyers Up,’ Abruptly Backs Out of PA State House Fact-Finding Hearing.

State Govt Committee Chair Seth Grove said the 1.3. million Pennsylvanians who used Dominion’s voting machines have been “hung out to dry and slapped in their faces.”

Pennsylvania lawmakers had scheduled the hearing with the voting machine manufacturer “to help identify and correct any irregularities in the election process,” according to the House Republican Caucus.

“It is vitally important voters have faith in the machines they use to cast their ballots. On the heels of Gov. Tom Wolf unilaterally decertifying every voting machine in the Commonwealth, we need to know whether these new machines met expectations, whether they are reliable and whether they are not subject to interference,” said Rep. Grove (R-York).

Dominion had initially agreed to attend the hearing, before it “abruptly canceled,” Grove said.

“I was impressed at what appeared to be the willingness that Dominion Voting Systems to address accusations and it would have put 1.3. million Pennsylvanians who used their machines at ease—including myself, thinking that Dominion was willing to publicly back up their product which PA taxpayers invested millions to purchase” he noted during the presser. “Unfortunately, last evening, Dominion Voting Systems lawyered up, and backed out of their commitment to the people of Pennsylvania to provide their input in a public format.”

Grove blasted the company for “retreating into the darkness,” rather than appearing at the hearing with “honesty and integrity.”

The committee chair said he wanted to know why a company with nothing to hide would back out.

“Why would a vender of public goods fear discussing their product sold to the public for the public good? If Dominion’s products were successful and operated as they were supposed to, why wouldn’t Dominion take the opportunity to publicly review its success?” Grove demanded. “How hard is it to say, ‘our ballot machines worked exactly as promised and they’re 100 percent accurate’?”

“After weeks of accusations, why has Dominion Voting Systems not released any analysis of the success of its voting machines to the public in order to stop their accusers in their tracks? If they have nothing to hide, why are they hiding from us?” he asked.

“Today I am saddened to report to the taxpayers of Pennsylvania and the 1.3 million voters who trusted Dominion Voting Systems with their ballots, that Dominion Voting Systems has hung you out to dry and slapped you in your faces.” the committee chair declared.

Grove stated that Dominion’s behavior lent credibility to their accusers’ accusations.

Well, hiding isn't going to work, hiding is a tacit admission that they can't be trusted, but, our Framers foresaw this, the final authority are the elected Legislature of the Commonwealth who will chose Electors on basis of what they perceive as the will of their constituents. So, our constitutional democracy remains in the good hands of our trusted representatives.

I can always count on Zorro! to troll and muck up my threads with askew or off topic polemics. The issue of this latest (of many) conspiracy charges against a particular third party vendor of voting machines (used in 19% of counties in Pennsylvania but not Philly) is irrelevant to my thread, which assumes that no major fraud will be found. My thread specifically addresses a different question, and mentions different states.

Zorro! should do a separate thread on this matter if he wishes. But he should at least be aware that the company in question responded to these latest charges as follows:

“As we await the opportunity to debunk the baseless conspiracy theories being offered ... in a court of law based on yesterday’s press conference claims that litigation is coming, we had to ask for a postponement of the discussion ... Notably, our company doesn’t even support Philadelphia, or some of the other jurisdictions being targeted by attorneys in their remarks.”

In fact, the Republican legislator most prominently involved in the recent hearing ... was elected from an area which uses the machines he is challenging.