Zone1 Do you get a lot of misogyny when you ditch MARY in your religion?

[Meriweather]

Nope. Scripture states emphatically there is only ONE mediator between G-d and man, and that is Christ Jesus. We cannot pray for nor with the dead.

So no one can pray together, not as a couple, not as a family, and not as a community?

 

[buttercup]

This makes no sense. We spend the entire Mass leading up to communion (45 minutes) on reflection and prayer. Yet, you wait until you actually have the Holy Eucharistic in your hand before thinking you should start reflecting and praying? There is also about another ten minutes after receiving communion for reflection and prayer.

Your story doesn't make any sense to me. You wanted a bit of time. Forty-five minutes prior and ten minutes after wasn't enough?

How insensitive to carelessly throw out "robotic religious way." I submit you were the robot this day, and one of no faith or reverence at that.

When I said reflection and prayer, I was talking specifically about taking the communion, about what Jesus did. Are you saying you spend the entire service in intentional focused prayer? Are you saying that no time is devoted to other things like listening to the pastor, learning, worship/ singing, etc.? You spend the entire time on intentional focused prayer? I do remember now that there’s time after taking the communion for individual prayer, but I wanted to do that before taking the communion… and unless it’s a sin to do that, I really don’t see why we’re even arguing about this.

As for my phrase “robotic religious way”, you are taking that personally. You view the Catholic Church in an entirely different way than I do. Your experience is different than mine. I can only go by MY experience. And in my experience I saw with my own two eyes that many people go through the motions during mass. For example, the extremely repetitive Hail Marys, which Jesus specifically said not to do because God is not gonna be impressed by how many times you repeat the same words over and over. Thats just one example of many.

Another thing I saw that may not be your experience but it’s my experience, is people who go to mass on Sunday but then the rest of the week they act just like everybody else. To me that’s a clear indication that for them it’s just religion, or a cultural thing, and that of course is not how it should be, that’s not what is important. That’s one of the reasons why I never went back to Catholic Church after my childhood and youth, when I got old enough to make my own decisions. To me what is important is truth, not customs, not traditions, not things that are completely unbiblical that the Catholic Church has added on, I knew that even as a child! And I turned out to be right because later when I finally became a born-again Christian and studied the Bible, I realized that my instincts were right as a child.

My intention is not to offend you, but the Catholic Church has far too many unbiblical doctrines and problems for me to just sweep under the rug and be silent about when the topic comes up. In fact just thinking about the Catholic Church is infuriating to me, for so many reasons. One of the big ones being how they mislead people on salvation, but that’s a discussion for another time and thread.

 

[Meriweather]

When I said reflection and prayer, I was talking specifically about taking the communion, about what Jesus did. Are you saying you spend the entire service in intentional focused prayer? Are you saying that no time is devoted to other things like listening to the pastor, learning, worship/ singing, etc.? You spend the entire time on intentional focused prayer? I do remember now that there’s time after taking the communion for individual prayer, but I wanted to do that before taking the communion… and unless it’s a sin to do that, I really don’t see why we’re even arguing about this.

Many of us arrive five or ten minutes before Mass for personal prayer. As a community, we confess we have sinned and pray for forgiveness. We then praise and glorify God. The readings of the day follow the theme of the Gospel. The first reading is from the Old Testament. We sing a psalm. The second reading is from New Testament letters. Again, it follows the same theme as the Psalm and the reading from the Old Testament. Then we listen to the Gospel. After that, the priest gives a homily about the theme and how we can incorporate that theme into our everyday life. We have a few moments after the homily for reflection. We pray for community concerns, and then begin the Sacrifice of the Mass. It is during this part of the Mass we pray and remember those who have passed on. We wish each other peace. We ask for God's mercy and for Him to grant us peace. We then have a few minutes for personal reflection as we prepare to receive Communion. We sing as we process up to communion, and guess what--the communion hymn often follows the theme of the readings and homily. Then we have private prayer and reflection. We end Mass thanking God and with another hymn.

In other words, one really has to work hard to keep apart from prayer and reflection during Mass. One must decide one is determined to daydream the time away and pay absolutely no attention to the worship that is going on all around them in all directions.

 

[buttercup]

I loathe that stupid phrase with everything in me.

I believe you are ignorant of everything Catholic and could not care less about educating yourself in the Catholic faith. That is fine. But don't pretend you even know enough to call it robotic or meaningless. You haven't a clue.

I went through the whole thing, first communion, confirmation, went to mass on Sundays with my mom for most of my childhood and teenage years. So no, I’m not ignorant on everything Catholic, but as I said in my previous post, I guess my experience was just different than yours. My sister feels the exact same way as me, she too is a born-again Christian who never went back to the CC. She has a couple Christian friends who also grew up Catholic and didn’t go back, and I too know have known Christians from a Catholic background, so my experience is not unique.

And the reason I said that phrase is because we’re obviously not going to agree on this. So what’s the alternative, to continue to argue? Not only do I not want to argue but I don’t have time right now, there are real life things I’m supposed to be doing. If I have time later maybe I’ll get back to this but I have a busy day so if I do it won’t be until late tonight.

 

[buttercup]

In other words, one really has to work hard to keep apart from prayer and reflection during Mass. One must decide one is determined to daydream the time away and pay absolutely no attention to the worship that is going on all around them in all directions.

Again, the prayer and reflection I was talking about was specifically about taking communion and what that means and what Jesus did. You stated that a bit of time is devoted to that after taking communion. So clearly Catholics agree that there should be a little time specifically for that, the only difference is I wanted to do it before the communion, not after. There’s no need to imply negative things about my faith by saying that one must be daydreaming throughout the service, or not paying attention. You are doing exactly what the priest was doing, assuming a lot of things. But again, i’m not interested in arguing this anymore so… have a good rest of the day.

 

[Meriweather]

As for my phrase “robotic religious way”, you are taking that personally. You view the Catholic Church in an entirely different way than I do. Your experience is different than mine. I can only go by MY experience. And in my experience I saw with my own two eyes that many people go through the motions during mass. For example, the extremely repetitive Hail Marys, which Jesus specifically said not to do because God is not gonna be impressed by how many times you repeat the same words over and over. Thats just one example of many.

Can it be you do not know how to pray the rosary and still retain a child's view of it? The rosary and the Hail Marys have a repetitive beat to it to keep one's mind focused on which ever Gospel, scripture, or part of Jesus life about which we are meditating. Hindu meditation sometimes use the sound and rhythm of 'Om" while Catholics use the rosary. Tell me, are you now going to heap scorn on the Hindu faith and those who say Om?

So now you know: God knows that we use a sound to keep focused on Him and His Word so our thoughts don't stray.

It appears you may have stayed in the shallows, without ever venturing out into the depths?

 

[Meriweather]

Another thing I saw that may not be your experience but it’s my experience, is people who go to mass on Sunday but then the rest of the week they act just like everybody else. To me that’s a clear indication that for them it’s just religion, or a cultural thing, and that of course is not how it should be, that’s not what is important. That’s one of the reasons why I never went back to Catholic Church after my childhood and youth, when I got old enough to make my own decisions. To me what is important is truth, not customs, not traditions, not things that are completely unbiblical that the Catholic Church has added on, I knew that even as a child! And I turned out to be right because later when I finally became a born-again Christian and studied the Bible, I realized that my instincts were right as a child.

And, of course you know how those same people would have acted had they not gone to Mass? You know they were not comforted in the least. You know their spirits were never lifted. You know they were never inspired.

Customs and traditions are the springboard for the deep dive into truth (and understanding the rosary). If you are so against tradition, the last thing you should pick up is the Bible--much too traditional--it's been around for ages. What you call "childhood instincts" were like the seed that fell on rock and were never given the chance to sprout. It seems there was no nurturing. Calling the Catholic faith "unbiblical" tells me there was little or no education, either--at least none you gave the slightest attention.

It seems all you have done since then is dwell on and confirm your distaste of things Catholic which seems an odd reason to study/use the Bible.

 

[Meriweather]

My intention is not to offend you, but the Catholic Church has far too many unbiblical doctrines and problems for me to just sweep under the rug and be silent about when the topic comes up. In fact just thinking about the Catholic Church is infuriating to me, for so many reasons. One of the big ones being how they mislead people on salvation, but that’s a discussion for another time and thread.

I am far from offended. Amused is more accurate. You have as much understanding of things Catholic as George Carlin had, and he was a hoot! Loved George Carlin, as did the nuns who introduced us to his comedy.

No, we do not have "unbiblical doctrines" nor are people misled about salvation and redemption.

 

[Meriweather]

I went through the whole thing, first communion, confirmation, went to mass on Sundays with my mom for most of my childhood and teenage years. So no, I’m not ignorant on everything Catholic, but as I said in my previous post, I guess my experience was just different than yours. My sister feels the exact same way as me, she too is a born-again Christian who never went back to the CC. She has a couple Christian friends who also grew up Catholic and didn’t go back, and I too know have known Christians from a Catholic background, so my experience is not unique.

Your experience is quite common. The nuns who taught us explained only one of four of us would choose to remain practicing Catholics--and I was told this decades ago. So, if you are thinking you are some kind of maverick, think again. It appears the mavericks are those of us who continue to delve and explore our faith and history more deeply as adults and remain practicing Catholics.

 

[Meriweather]

And the reason I said that phrase is because we’re obviously not going to agree on this. So what’s the alternative, to continue to argue? Not only do I not want to argue but I don’t have time right now, there are real life things I’m supposed to be doing. If I have time later maybe I’ll get back to this but I have a busy day so if I do it won’t be until late tonight.

"Agree to disagree" is idiotic. We disagree. Period. That is why you and I just might have fun discussing our disagreements. Two people repeating each other isn't that much fun or even enlightening.

 

[Meriweather]

Again, the prayer and reflection I was talking about was specifically about taking communion and what that means and what Jesus did. You stated that a bit of time is devoted to that after taking communion. So clearly Catholics agree that there should be a little time specifically for that, the only difference is I wanted to do it before the communion, not after. There’s no need to imply negative things about my faith by saying that one must be daydreaming throughout the service, or not paying attention. You are doing exactly what the priest was doing, assuming a lot of things. But again, i’m not interested in arguing this anymore so… have a good rest of the day.

I am do not think anything negative of your faith, and therefore I am not implying anything negative. I am pointing out there is oodles of time for those who are spiritually present for prayer and reflection about our upcoming Communion. I do stand by what I said, because it happens to all of us, to become inattentive or distracted during a vital part of the Mass--the Consecration. And that is only one of several times there are opportunities for prayer and reflection prior to receiving communion. If you regularly went to Mass and paid attention, you know this. You know it. Yet you dismiss it, pretending otherwise.

Basically what I see and what I am flat out saying (not implying) is that for some reason the Mass failed to grip you or even hold your attention. There is nothing wrong with the Catholic Mass, but possibly it bored you and you wanted something different. Nothing wrong with that. My youngest daughter wants a religious faith community that fits her as well as she knows mine fits me. Guess who she is taking along as her guide? Me. She knows I have never expected her to be a carbon copy of me and she knows I am happy with how the Holy Spirit is working in her life. And that is the drummer we should all be listening for because the Holy Spirit has a unique beat for each of us.

 

[Clyde 154]

So no one can pray together, not as a couple, not as a family, and not as a community?

Reality: Any one "individual" can pray toward a certain common goal........but praying in a group simply to make a show in order to project self improtance is not justified in that "Which is written". What is written about group prayers? "Confess your faults, one to another and pray one for another that ye may be healed. The "effectual" (forceful, powerful) prayer OF A RIGHTEOUS MAN (singular) AVAILETH MUCH." -- James 5:16

James also advises to produce WORKS (actions) along with the FAITH that produces honest prayer. Why? These conditions do not oppose one another, they complement one another. One void of the other is DEAD. (James 2:17-26)

Prayers that are answered also requires WORK on the part of those who PRAY......God helps those who help themselves. Simply voicing a prayer in public is not enough. One demonstrates faith through actions. When you pray for one another, act to produce that which is required to answer prayer. Just like Abraham displayed his faith.......when God saw that Abraham's faith was justified by works......He stopped Abraham from actually sacrificing his son.....

There is more to Christianity than Faith alone. Even the Demons (Satan's angels) believe (know the truth)....but they do so in fear. (James 2:19)

What did Jesus declare about WORKS ALONE......that which can be seen, produced by man made traditions, such as dressing up in special uniforms to project the clergy as being of more importance than the laity (member of a faith).......offering up of prayers in a public setting simply to bring attention to the act of praying instead of the FAITH required to produce answers to prayers?

Read Matthew 23 concerning Jesus' opinion of such practices as going beyond that which is written (in THE LAW) via the use of TRADITIONS that make the law of God void. What did He call those who used such traditional practices?

"Woe unto you scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES! for ye devour widows' houses; and for pretense ye make long prayer..........ye shall receive the greater damnation."

Such practices led to Jesus making a prediction that God would actually punish Biblical Israel in that very generation by destroying Jerusalem and scattering the Jews around the globe with no home of their own, just after He called this type of leadership a generation of vipers that could not escape the damnation of judgement. (Matthew 23:33-38).

 

[Meriweather]

Read Matthew 23

I particularly note verse 3:

Therefore do and observe everything that they command you; but do not imitate their lives, for though they tell others what to do, they do not do it themselves.

 

[notmyfault2020]

Firstly, I grew up going to Catholic Church, so I am fully aware of Catholic customs. Secondly, how can you say that it’s “spitting on“ Catholic customs which implies bad intent, then in your next breath say that Jesus knew I had no ill intent?

My intent was not to “spit on“ any one’s customs, I sincerely didn’t think that it would be a problem, do you think that I would knowingly do something that would end up embarrassing me in front of the whole church?

And most importantly, and this is one of the biggest problems I have with the Catholic Church… I care about TRUTH, not man-made traditions! My devotion is to GOD, not to any human fallible priest, pope or unbiblical doctrines. THAT is why I said I will never go to a Catholic Church again, because if they’re going to place man-made rules and customs over people then I want no part of that.

It is your subjective opinion that anyone puts human rules above people in the Church. That said, I don't have a problem w/ people who criticize the "mainstream" Catholic Church as it were. The true Catholic Church is not the bergoglio church which separated from the true Church, the Pius X Church--- although bergoglio and co. would tell u it was the other way around.

Even so, there are still good priests in the novus ordo church.. I would NOT say they are the more numerous group, though. I tend to think most NO priests are.. well, let's just say for now that they appear to have some serious problems.. for one, some of them seem to think the Mass is about them.. or something. And they are rude in confession so many decline to confess their sins anymore. I'm surprised any of the NO priests even believe in the reality of SIN anymore since Vatican II basically said such dumb things as: all religions save. I tend to think the Church for the most part is moving away from that? Hope so. But bergoglio... OMG.. Saying his name should say it all, all by itself. "You will know them by their fruits"

 

[notmyfault2020]

Reality: Any one "individual" can pray toward a certain common goal........but praying in a group simply to make a show in order to project self improtance is not justified in that "Which is written". What is written

take it from someone who has spoken or written to numerous protestants over the last couple decades, someone who has studied Church history, studied the Catechism.. been Catholic all my life:

Protestants do not understand the first thing about Catholicism (just repeat talking points they likely heard from their Catholic-hating pastors or whomever). And most do not take the advice Catholics give to attend an RCIA class (which is free and virtually every parish has the class) to try to learn and not be so ignorant anymore. So if I sound impatient w/ them, this is why.

It's like someone who has never studied engineering, never even taken a geometry class going to a bridge builder and telling him what is wrong with the way he is building bridges..

Seriously.. it is exactly like that.

 

[notmyfault2020]

This makes no sense. We spend the entire Mass leading up to communion (45 minutes) on reflection and prayer. Yet, you wait until you actually have the Holy Eucharistic in your hand before thinking you should start reflecting and praying? There is also about another ten minutes after receiving communion for reflection and prayer.

Your story doesn't make any sense to me. You wanted a bit of time. Forty-five minutes prior and ten minutes after wasn't enough?

How insensitive to carelessly throw out "robotic religious way." I submit you were the robot this day, and one of no faith or reverence at that.

yeh, that bewildered me also: why he took the Host with him. True, I did it that one time and I still do not know why.. Maybe if I think about it I will remember why? Oh.. some of it is coming to me. I was a Eucharistic minister until I found out I really shouldn't be one.. In those days, I just went along with NO procedures and etc.. so .. may not be remembering things clearly here but maybe I was going to keep the Host with me (safe, secure place of course) so as to have Jesus with me. I was going through a confusing time then, but still.. I cringe thinking that may have been the reason. Again, the good priests demand you not take the Host outside the Church and since then, I have come to u/stand that policy fully, whereas in those days, even though I had a good intention (was going through some difficult times then and felt I needed to be in His presence more), it was wrong.

Still, it angers me that a lot of NO priests do not make the Real Presence present to parishioners as often or even half as often as they should-- so then they wonder why people think like (above)..

just sayin...

 

[JustAGuy1]

take it from someone who has spoken or written to numerous protestants over the last couple decades, someone who has studied Church history, studied the Catechism.. been Catholic all my life:

Protestants do not understand the first thing about Catholicism (just repeat talking points they likely heard from their Catholic-hating pastors or whomever). And most do not take the advice Catholics give to attend an RCIA class (which is free and virtually every parish has the class) to try to learn and not be so ignorant anymore. So if I sound impatient w/ them, this is why.

It's like someone who has never studied engineering, never even taken a geometry class going to a bridge builder and telling him what is wrong with the way he is building bridges..

Seriously.. it is exactly like that.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, USMB's sole arbiter of what a "true" Church is.

 

[notmyfault2020]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, USMB's sole arbiter of what a "true" Church is.

but when the Protestants claim such, no problem

hypocrite

Everyone has to find the True Church.. and has to do that pretty much by him or herself.. but apparently everyone will fail or most people anyhow since Jesus said that FEW find the Way to Heaven

I think it is because they don't really WANT to find that Way.. .too busy loving the things of this world (understandable but the things of this world obviously are not going to last for anyone)

 

[Clyde 154]

take it from someone who has spoken or written to numerous protestants over the last couple decades, someone who has studied Church history, studied the Catechism.. been Catholic all my life:

Protestants do not understand the first thing about Catholicism (just repeat talking points they likely heard from their Catholic-hating pastors or whomever). And most do not take the advice Catholics give to attend an RCIA class (which is free and virtually every parish has the class) to try to learn and not be so ignorant anymore. So if I sound impatient w/ them, this is why.

It's like someone who has never studied engineering, never even taken a geometry class going to a bridge builder and telling him what is wrong with the way he is building bridges..

Seriously.. it is exactly like that.

I agree with you on one point. The majority of "protestants" are no more promoting truth than does the RCC. Protestant simply means......anyone that protested the Catholic Dogma mandated by State Governments in Europe when the majority of the civilized world was limited to hearing only Catholic dogma, as it was a crime for any lay person to even own a copy of the Holy Bible. The protestant movement came about due to the advent of the printing press where scripture was translated from the dead langauge used by the RCC into English and other languages......when THE PEOPLE could actually read from the Holy Bible for themselves......which could have prevented RCC mistakes such as the Spanish Inquisitions and the Crusades where Roman Catholicism was attempted to be forced by military action upon the known world.

What was under protest was the greed, wealth and power being funnelled to the Vatican......based upon manmade dogma.

The only thing UNIVERSAL about the RCC was that it demanded UNVERSAL COMPLIANCE under penalty of law. This is what lead to the founding of the United States of America and the Bill of STATES RIGHTS. People were seeking religious freedom from tyranny.


Its not impossible to STUDY RCC HISTORY just like its not impossible to compare Catholic Tradition/Dogma with the actual content of the N.T. canon. Truth: There can be only "ONE" N.T. Lord, one church/faith, one baptism, one Spirit, one hope, one God and Father (Eph. 4:4-6)

..........there can be 1000s of different denominations professing to be that ONE church (as I stated, the RCC is one of those denominations). There can logically be only 2 possiblities of truth based upon the evidences available. 1. ALL 1000 denominations can be fake, promoting doctrine not found within the confirms of "that which is written"......but most certainly not all can be correct if there is the slightest variance between the doctrines promoted. Next possiblity. 2. One of these 1000 claims can be TRUE with the evidence presented by Book, Chapter and Verse that demonstrates all doctrines practiced by this ONE FAITH are taken directly from "THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN".

Again..........no one needs nor is required to verse himself deep into Catholic Dogma to demonstrate a variance between the dogma practiced by the RCC and actual content of the N.T. canon. There is no UNIVERSAL CHURCH any more than the Christ approved of the regilious leaders of His day dressing in special garb......separating the clegry from the laity, making public prayer.......promoting special sabbaths not authorized by the written LAW........praying to anyone other than God, while promoting TRADITION over the actual content of the written Law.

Again.......all one need do is read ONE CHAPTER from the Gospel of Matthew (23) and compare the words of Jesus to the UNIVERSALLY KNOWN dogma of the RCC. Its not rocket science.

Good intentions will not provide a path to the Father. There is only ONE path and that goes through Christ Jesus. (John 14:6)

Its simple and quite unabiguously stated, "He who rejects Me (Christ Jesus) and does not receive My sayings (parables and teachings....such as found in Matthew 23), has one who judges him; the word that I spoke is what will judge him on that day (judgment day)." -- John 12:48 (nasb translation)

More proof from "what is written" that demonstrates that judgment will be based upon The BOOKS (espistles) that are written in steed of TRADITION/DOGMA?

"And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne and books were opened; and another book was opened; which is the book of life (a record of one's actions while living); and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books......according to their dees." -- Revelation 20:12

If I were of the Catholic faith.........I would be in fear, great fear, "I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book; if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part in the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book." -- Revelation 22:18

 

[notmyfault2020]

I agree with you on one point. The majority of "protestants" are no more promoting truth than does the RCC. Protestant simply means......anyone that protested the Catholic Dogma mandated by State Governments in Europe when the majority of the civilized world was limited to hearing only Catholic dogma,

you are bent on keeping your beliefs, don't want to learn anything. You have been lied to about the CC as every Protestant is. And it is hard to let go of the fake information u have been given. I didn't read all your post bcfrankly I am just worn out with all the bizarre "The Catholics teach this" and the Catholics teach that" baloney.

Again, Protestants never seem to get around to studying what Catholics really believe.. too lazy to check it out or too entrenched in their own false beliefs or a combo of both.. to really find out the truth.

And I am supposed to have time for this? I'm supposed to get you to the truth when you don't even want to get there?