Do we want the Ukraine in NATO? POLL

[K9Buck]

NATO is largely a paper tiger. Most Europeans don't care about military spending and care even less about NATO. Why should we?

 

[Harpy Eagle]

So you consider the US keeping a promise to help defend an ally's sovereign border from an unwarranted invasion / attack 'challenging' Putin / Russia?!

I am sorry for continuing to ask these questions, but they are truly mind-numbing to be.....'perspective' is truly an eye-opening thing.

HISTORY LESSON:
1. Hitler wrote that at the beginning of WWII he moved his troops into the 'buffer zone' established at the end of WWI in violation of that end-of-war agreement. Hitler stated in his writings that his military was NOT ready to go to war, not ready for conflict, that he was 'testing the waters', and if France had made ANY gesture of opposition to his troops being there he would have pulled them back. Hitler added that when no move was made against him - an act of appeasement - he said he KNEW right then and there that he could take all of Europe because they were un-willing to fight, willing to sacrifice others' freedom to keep their own.

2. Vladimir Putin, not long after he became Leader of Russia, stated in an interview - when asked what was his biggest regret about Russia - his biggest regret was seeing the USSR allow these small nations break away from the USSR and become independent. He went on to say that he intended to 'remedy that and return the USSR to its former glory'. You can bet Putin has not forgotten that.

IMO, the Ukraine situation is the continuation of Putin's Crimea gambit, which, again IMO, was Putin's 'Hitler Test'. Putin sought to find out if anyone - especially the US / Obama - would actually step up to help their new ally and risk going to war with Russia. Just like with his Syrian 'Red Line', Barry backed down from the challenge without making so much as a token gesture of opposition to Putin's military annexing of Crimea.

My goodness. You're fully indoctrinated, aren't you?

That screed tells me you don't know jack squat nothing about history.

Let him keep going. In a few weeks when Trump has done nothing but cower to Putin he will be back on here telling us how amazing Trump is for not doing anything...then we can bring up this thread and laugh in his face...yet again.


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[K9Buck]

Just curious how tough everyone wants to be with Putin. Do we want to challenge Russia or not?

Are you asking if Americans really want to keep our promise to allies of helping them defend their nations or would they rather turn their back on allies when they are threatened because standing beside allies as promised when it counts is just too hard?

Are you seriously asking if people actually want to stand up to Putin or back down and cower to him, abandon allies to avoid facing Putin / Russia?

I don't want to send American boys to Ukraine. Not even the Europeans want to defend Ukraine.

 

[easyt65]

1. What promise did the US make to the Ukraine? Same one as to Crimea? Link please
2. What perspective are you confused about? The US is NOT the world's cop. If NATO and their feeble militaries (other than the US) want to get involved in the Ukraine, another away game for the US, what's in it for the US as to risk and cost? Is the Ukraine vital to the US and EU?

1. The United States promised to help defend the Ukraine's sovereign borders.

"The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances refers to three identical political agreements signed at the OSCE conference in Budapest, Hungary on 5 December 1994, providing security assurances by its signatories relating to the accession of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons.

The memorandum included security assurances against threats or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan. As a result, between 1994 and 1996, Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons."
- Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances - Wikipedia


"For years, Putin has shown zero respect for his U.S. counterpart and utter disdain for the West in general, and the United States in particular. Obama’s reset policy is partly to blame for what is unfolding in Ukraine, after giving Putin a pass on his human rights abuses, aggressive policies toward his neighbors and support for murderous regimes like the one in Syria. Putin never saw from the United States any deterrent or consequences for his outrageous behavior, such as trade sanctions against Russia’s neighbors in violation of its World Trade Organization commitments or the worst crackdown in human rights in Russia since the breakup of the Soviet Union. All too often, Obama and his team looked the other way."
- U.S. foreign policy comes home to roost with Russia’s action in Ukraine

Oh, Obama TALKED a really good game - like in the case of his embarrassing 'Red Line' debacle, but when it came to WALKING THE WALK Barry was always walking BACKWARDS.

NATO A 'Paper Tiger'
NATO was formed to mutually protect nations from military threats / invasion / military annexations just like what happened to the Ukraine, to stand together when the rubber meets the road, when the fecal matter hits the rotating oscillator.....and even after the Budapest Memorandum where assurances of protection / assistance were given to the Ukraine, when the Ukraine faced what NATO banded together to defend against what was happening to the Ukraine NATO turned their back on the Ukraine.

It looked like a group of people who invite the nerd to the party and when the bullies start picking on the nerd and demand to know who brought the nerd to the party the ones who brought him act like they don't know him.

Suddenly admitting the Ukraine into NATO, when Putin had turned his attention to 'getting the old band back together' - reforming the USSR by beginning to drag the renegade run-away nations back into the fold - suddenly Obama and his NATO buddies (at that time) wanted no part in running to stand beside the Ukraine.
- NATO Membership Has Its Privileges (Unfortunately Ukraine Won’t See Them)

You're calling for the same thing now.

JFK declared the US would pay any price, bear any burden, to stand with people demanding / willing to fight for freedom....today's snowflakes have added a caveat to JFK's words - '...unless it's just too hard / difficult / dangerous to stick you neck out for them....unless we have to face Putin...'


2. What 'perspective'?
The same one Obama faced....keeping the US' word, keeping JFK's word, or simply turn your back on others, especially when they are threatened by Putin. Barry had no problem dragging the US into an illegal war to help Al Qaeda - who slaughtered 3,000 Americans - murder Qadaffi and take over Libya but didn't raise a finger to help the Ukraine - even send weapons to the Ukraine for them to defend themselves. Barry did not hesitate to commit an International War Crime by invading a sovereign nation without that nation's request / permission to intervene, but helping defend Ukraine from Putin's aggression was a 'bridge too far'.

'Perspective'.


You asked the question. You wanted to know. My opinion is to continue to keep JFK's promise, to not only DO what we signed up to do when we joined NATO for NATO members but also stand up to help free nations that could be / want to be party of NATO, to join that alliance of mutual cooperation for defense.

'Mutual Cooperation'. When Obama backed down in front of the whole world from his 'Red Line' he showed both allies and enemies his word mean nothing and when pushed he would back down. When he refused to do ANYTHING when Putin began putting his troops on Ukraine's border he gave allies a reason to wonder about the US' word / commitment to come to their aid if needed.

 

[K9Buck]

How about Ukraine taking our place in NATO?

 

[JWBooth]

Very quick to offer up to sacrifice young Americans in places that don't matter. Gird up your loins, arm yourself and go save the Nazis.

 

[Natural Citizen]

Let him keep going. In a few weeks when Trump has done nothing but cower to Putin he will be back on here telling us how amazing Trump is for not doing anything...then we can bring up this thread and laugh in his face...yet again.

I don't really care what he does, I just don't want to watch him rot other people's brains with that neocon pablum he's learned to spread around.

 

[easyt65]

asked

I don't want to send American boys to Ukraine. Not even the Europeans want to defend Ukraine.

'I don't want to send American Boys to Europe to fight no Nazis'.

'I don't want to send American Boys to the Pacific to fight no Japs'.

Thank God people like you were not in charge at the time....



God bless JFK!

"The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing"


(Just curious, when the Nobel Peace Prize Winner committed an International War crime invading a sovereign nation in the midst of a civil war - by sending American boys into Syria - did you raise hell about it, oppose it publicly? )

 

[easyt65]

Very quick to offer up to sacrifice young Americans in places that don't matter.

...like SYRIA?

 

[Stratford57]

NATO is largely a paper tiger. Most Europeans don't care about military spending and care even less about NATO. Why should we?

A better way of saying it is that the United States uses NATO to escalate conflict with Russia.

Washington Post:

The exaggerated Russian threat helps justify bloated military budgets and unify increasingly fractious allies. As Robert Hunter, the former U.S. ambassador to NATO, recently observed: “Allegations of Russian interference in the U.S. election campaign become a tool to limit, if not cripple, President Trump’s attempts to change the downward course of U.S. and Western relations with Russia.”

Opinion | Neo-McCarthyite furor around Russia is counterproductive

 

[JWBooth]

Very quick to offer up to sacrifice young Americans in places that don't matter.

...like SYRIA?

Thought you were focused on rescuing the Nazi regime in Ukraine for this thread. Now you want to detour to the Syrian misadventure.

 

[georgephillip]

Just curious how tough everyone wants to be with Putin. Do we want to challenge Russia or not?

It would seem challenging Russia over Ukraine would be another losing proposition. Putin's supply lines are just too much shorter than ours, at least according to Larry Wilkerson, former chief-of-staff to Colin Powell.

Wilkerson also isn't clear about the legality of what recently happened in the Kerch Strait.

Moscow & NATO Playing a 'Dangerous Tit-For-Tat Game' in the Ukraine

"So there are all kinds of international agreements and bilateral agreements about passage through this area.

"The legal aspects of it really, I think, would boil down to, in many respects, who has Crimea?

"Ukraine still claims Crimea.

"Russia now claims Crimea.

"And if they claim Crimea, then their territorial water, even with unclassed–with respect to unclassed, its definition of straights and so forth–then that territorial water, that is territorial water, even under [unclass], is Russian. If it’s Ukranian, it’s Ukrainian.

"The Russians are claiming it’s Russian and Ukrainian ships violated it. Ukrainians, I guess, are complaining or asserting the fact that they think it’s still Ukrainian, and so they didn’t violate anything."

Sea clash staged by Ukraine, says Putin

 

[easyt65]

Very quick to offer up to sacrifice young Americans in places that don't matter.

...like SYRIA?

Thought you were focused on rescuing the Nazi regime in Ukraine for this thread. Now you want to detour to the Syrian misadventure.

Please don't drag me into your delusions regarding the origins of the Democratic Party.

You can let go of the 1940s and come join the rest of in 2018 now.

The Ukraine is no more a 'Nazi regime' than you are a cross-dressing Russian hermaphrodite..... Wait, let me re-phrase that (since I don't know you) - The Ukraine is NOT a 'Nazi Regime'.

I apologize for my factual comment regarding the Nobel Peace Prize winner's jaunt into Syria in an attempt to help ISIS over-throw Al-Assad. I forgot for a moment how fragile and easily offended you snowflakes are, especially this early in the morning. My bad.

 

[JWBooth]

Very quick to offer up to sacrifice young Americans in places that don't matter.

...like SYRIA?

Thought you were focused on rescuing the Nazi regime in Ukraine for this thread. Now you want to detour to the Syrian misadventure.

Please don't drag me into your delusions regarding the origins of the Democratic Party.

You can let go of the 1940s and come join the rest of in 2018 now.

The Ukraine is no more a 'Nazi regime' than you are a cross-dressing Russian hermaphrodite..... Wait, let me re-phrase that (since I don't know you) - The Ukraine is NOT a 'Nazi Regime'.

I apologize for my factual comment regarding the Nobel Peace Prize winner's jaunt into Syria in an attempt to help ISIS over-throw Al-Assad. I forgot for a moment how fragile and easily offended you snowflakes are, especially this early in the morning. My bad.

Babbling bullshit aside then, you apparently have nothing.

 

[easyt65]

It would seem challenging Russia over Ukraine would be another losing proposition. Putin's supply lines are just too much shorter than ours, at least according to Larry Wilkerson, former chief-of-staff to Colin Powell.

Yeah, wow....how would the United States ever come up with a solution to a problem / challenge that looks so impossible to overcome? Never been done before....Oh, wait....



www.historynet.com

The Berlin Airlift: The End of the Blockade. By spring 1949, it was clear that the Soviet blockade of West Berlin had failed. It had not persuaded West Berliners to reject their allies in the West, nor had it prevented the creation of a unified West German state.


Berlin Airlift - HISTORY

https://www.history.com/topics/cold-war/berlin-airlift

 

[Stratford57]

Very quick to offer up to sacrifice young Americans in places that don't matter.

...like SYRIA?

Thought you were focused on rescuing the Nazi regime in Ukraine for this thread. Now you want to detour to the Syrian misadventure.

Please don't drag me into your delusions regarding the origins of the Democratic Party.

You can let go of the 1940s and come join the rest of in 2018 now.

The Ukraine is no more a 'Nazi regime' than you are a cross-dressing Russian hermaphrodite..... Wait, let me re-phrase that (since I don't know you) - The Ukraine is NOT a 'Nazi Regime'.

I apologize for my factual comment regarding the Nobel Peace Prize winner's jaunt into Syria in an attempt to help ISIS over-throw Al-Assad. I forgot for a moment how fragile and easily offended you snowflakes are, especially this early in the morning. My bad.

Babbling bullshit aside then, you apparently have nothing.

If BS is anti-Putin BS it's not BS any more but a new American rule. (Just an observation)

 

[Harpy Eagle]

It would seem challenging Russia over Ukraine would be another losing proposition. Putin's supply lines are just too much shorter than ours, at least according to Larry Wilkerson, former chief-of-staff to Colin Powell.

Yeah, wow....how would the United States ever come up with a solution to a problem / challenge that looks so impossible to overcome? Never been done before....Oh, wait....


View attachment 231311
www.historynet.com

The Berlin Airlift: The End of the Blockade. By spring 1949, it was clear that the Soviet blockade of West Berlin had failed. It had not persuaded West Berliners to reject their allies in the West, nor had it prevented the creation of a unified West German state.


Berlin Airlift - HISTORY

https://www.history.com/topics/cold-war/berlin-airlift

You want our troops dying in Afghanistan and now you want them dying in the Ukraine but lack the balls to put on the combat boots and do it yourself.




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[easyt65]

Babbling bullshit aside then, you apparently have nothing.

In other words I kicked the living crap out of your 'The Ukraine Is a 'Nazi State' insanity, and you are trying to respond with some type of puffery so you won't look like the shamed idiot you are....

Bwuhahahaha.......

 

[rightwinger]

Nyet

 

[JWBooth]

Keyboard warriors, because other people's children need to die for their bullshit visions.