namvet
Gold Member
educate yourselves on these fictitious lies. for this member speak with two faces and know nothing of this subject
Did we really have to nuke Japan?
- Thread starter The2ndAmendment
- Start date
educate yourselves on these fictitious lies. for this member speak with two faces and know nothing of this subject
elektra
Diamond Member
The use of "links", from a google is a "fool's errand".
Why not quote or paraphrase something you think makes your point, that would at least indicate you know a bit more than a google search on your ideology.
gipper
Diamond Member
- Jan 8, 2011
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Damn....I have posted on this subject repeatedly since I have been here. Sorry you missed my prior posts.
And I posted links because another poster asked for them.
These links lead to articles from many experts. You would be wise to read them.
namvet
Gold Member
wiser to ignore them
HenryBHough
Diamond Member
I don't think we'll ever have to do it again.
But it's looking like China might.
But it's looking like China might.
elektra
Diamond Member
In my experience, those who use Google, like its a deck of cards, are simply playing go fish.
I thought of what you said while I was away, that most likely you quoted or was more specific. Still, so many people simply think a Google search that gives them results is somehow proof or confirmation of their particular ideology.
Yes, you posted the links cause someone asked for them, yet you proceeded the links with the comment;
"To All The Above: Please educate yourselves and stop believing the lies of the State."
Here is a pic of most the books that are relevant to the topic at hand. Have you read, "The Rape of Nanking", certainly tells much of the character of the enemy we faced. Seems I forgot to include my stuff about Burma, where the Japanese tortured and maimed teenager's genitals and such, until the young teenage died, I am talking 13 year old boys and girls. Pretty gruesome enemy we faced.
How about that stuff about Stimson, or the Secretary of State at the time.
But I kind of like the books, Hirohito or The Rising Sun. Quotes directly from the highest ranking Japanese officials, very relevant. How about the Battle for Okinawa, another good source, or how about Gunther's book.
Did you notice the open book, its old, 1928 is when it was written, I should confirm that, it may be a bit newer, I say stuff written before the War is very insightful.
Still, all that stuff on or from Stimson, he was the expert on Asia.
John Gunther's book is useful as well.
So, to me, links mean next to nothing, mostly they are of other people's opinion.
Japan, did we really have to nuke Japan?
No, not at all.
Unconditional Surrender? What did that mean, leaving the Japanese in Control of the areas of China they controlled? Leaving the Japanese in Control of Vietnam, Burma? All of Indochina?
Read, The Rising Sun or Hirohito, and one realizes Japan was not ever, surrendering. But as it happened in History, they did Surrender, the most difficult part of the Emperor Surrendering was the Emperor had to fight against the Army, the Emperor literally had to do much in secret, as to not to be murdered those within the Emperor's government who would not ever allow Surrender.
It was only after Nagasaki was destroyed that the Emperor fought against the Japanese military command, and surrendered, risking his life and others, in doing so.
Japan was never united in Surrender, conditionally or unconditionally. Overtures to Communist Russia, far short of a surrender.
Quote your best source, I will easily counter, more than one book, first though, direct quotes from the Japanese who were in charge, in command. Who better to speak, than the Japanese.
JoeB131
Diamond Member
Elektra, once again, you are swallowing the Cold War line to justify the bombing.
The reality is, the entry of the USSR into the Pacific War had a lot more to do with Japan's surrender than the A-bomb. The Bombings were not needed.
Both Eisenhower and MacArthur thought bombing Japan with Nukes was a bad idea.
The reality is, the entry of the USSR into the Pacific War had a lot more to do with Japan's surrender than the A-bomb. The Bombings were not needed.
Both Eisenhower and MacArthur thought bombing Japan with Nukes was a bad idea.
namvet
Gold Member
Eisenhower had no combat experience and MacArthur wanted to walk over the dead in Japan and declare himself Jesus H Christ. its a fact the Japs were building their own abomb with help from the nazi's. the bombs were dropped to prevents millions of Americans from dying and end the war. period. they were necessary. just ask any Marine or sailor who was going to invade the empire, and their families.
better the Japs die than us. Truman said after the war he'd make the same call again. in war you use your best weapon. use it or lose it.
think!!! if your dad had died in the invasion your not born. then your mom finds out later truman had a weapon that would have ended the war and saved his life.
go ahead. ask your mom. i dare ya
BTY the Russians knew we had the bomb before we used it
elektra
Diamond Member
Eisenhower? Really, that should be interesting, give Eisenhower your best shot. Let me guess, you are going to make the claim that Eisenhower knew of the Top Secret A-Bomb when the Vice President of the United States did not, and that further during a peace conference in 1945 somebody disclosed that Top Secret, which was kept from Vice President Truman until Roosevelt died, you will make the claim that for a General not involved with the war in the Pacific that Top Secret would be disclosed and Eisenhower would make a statement that the bomb was not needed to said person.
Such a significant meeting must be well documented, disclosing Top Secrets is not easy, so their is obviously all the papers showing that Truman gave the proper clearance to General Eisenhower. I guess we will see the statement in Eisenhower's books as well.
So, you have some sort of link, source for Eisenhower, you can even include MacArthur.
Funny though, Was it Hull or Stimson that stated everybody supported the dropping of the A-Bomb and the Hydrogen Bomb.
The Politics after the fact have nothing to do with the History that passed, Eisenhower's statements are nothing more than politics after the fact.
The most glaring error of your post, is you fail to state the the USSR had a treaty with Japan that they did not break until after the Hydrogen Bomb was dropped on Nagasaki, after the Emperor began his effort (against those in the Japanese government that opposed Surrender) to surrender.
Hell, the last Japanese to surrender was in 1974, there are plenty of books out there, go ahead and offer a quote or a source, and I will kindly do the same.
I can start with that Red and White book below, Hiohito.
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JoeB131
Diamond Member
Neither the Japanese no Nazis were anywhere close to an a-bomb, not to mention they had no method to DELIVER it. That's kind of important.
You know what, guy. Letting the Japanese negotiate for a peace that allowed them to save face would have saved Americans from dying and ending the war. THe sticking point was Hirohito, and that guy was allowed to stay, anyhow.
My Dad was a WWII vet. (European Theater). But the point was, invading Japan wasn't necessary. The leadership was ALREADY seeking a negotiated settlement. The bombs had nothing to do with their decision to surrender. The fact the USSR was about to unleash a shitload of whoopass on them was.
Which is completely irrelevant to the point I made. Truman told the USSR at Potsdam we had this bomb, but he STILL Pushed for the USSR to enter the pacific war. He didn't say to Stalin, "Hey, buddy, we got this with Japan, just cool your jets."
JoeB131
Diamond Member
Pictures of books is not knowledge. This is what Ike said about the A-bomb.
Hiroshima Quotes
"...in [July] 1945... Secretary of War Stimson, visiting my headquarters in Germany, informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act. ...the Secretary, upon giving me the news of the successful bomb test in New Mexico, and of the plan for using it, asked for my reaction, apparently expecting a vigorous assent.
"During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face'. The Secretary was deeply perturbed by my attitude..."
- Dwight Eisenhower, Mandate For Change, pg. 380
namvet
Gold Member
dead wrong on all counts. you were never right
elektra
Diamond Member
You link to a website which quotes one of the books I own, can physically read, and you claim your google search gives you more knowledge?
Seeing how I will not use google, how I quote from the books directly, it will take a bit more time to respond than your cut/paste.
Google is not knowledge at all, its an obfuscation of the facts, you could do a search on, "Eisenhower likes blue Goats", and get results.
Stimson came to tell Eisenhower a Top Secret, we have Eisenhower's word? Seems to me there was a big fight going on between Eisenhower and Truman? Yes?
JoeB131
Diamond Member
First, you act like the Atomic Bomb was that big of a secret that most people couldn't have conceived of such a thing. People had been speculating about the possibility of atomic weapons since the 1920's.
Second, do you deny that the quote is there? Or are you just saying because I can find something faster with google, that makes a difference?
Anyway, a lot of our military men, Ike and MacArthur, thought the bomb was a terrible idea, which of course, it was.
JoeB131
Diamond Member
Your inability to offer counterarguments that don't rely on emotion is duly noted.
MaryL
Diamond Member
- Banned
- #336
You don't understand this at all. The Japanese didn't have any qualms about being merciless invaders in China and Korea. Burma, and provoking the war with the US by bombing Pearl Harbor without warning. And, it took TWO A-bombs to convince the already war weary and starving Japanese leadership to stop their war mongering. Are you kidding? The Japanese where the ones with the F-up murderous sociopaths in charge.
namvet
Gold Member
they were way the hell and gone from being finished
the doug long link is a blog. mere opinion and speculation. more like conspiracy
try again.
the doug long link is a blog. mere opinion and speculation. more like conspiracy
try again.
namvet
Gold Member
#264
elektra
Diamond Member
You found something faster with Google, while I have read and own the book? Your idea about being faster is your fantasy.
Do I deny the quote is there, as stated from your link, its not a matter of denial, its a matter of fact that your link is garbage and that quote is not on page 380, as your link states, I quoted the link you gave, with the reference to the incorrect page.
Whoever created the page is a lousy scholar, there is no check for accuracy, most likely whoever cut/paste the quote together did not read the book. First and foremost, page 380 of Mandate for Change talks of the TVA, not Stimson and the bomb.
So tell me how fast you are with google, tell us how you know the material, the subject, tell us in your brilliance did you ever think of checking what is referenced.
How about a picture of page 380, simply to point out the fact, that it is the fool who only knows google.
I guess once you go back to google, get a quote without errors, we can continue our discussion. There is so much more but you make it slow, having all your google errors to contend with.
I have not responded to anything else you stated, simply because of the extreme error in your link. You really should of caught the error, had you known what you are talking about.
Hiroshima Quotes
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elektra
Diamond Member
Eisenhower and his conflicting statements could be the subject of another thread. But seeing how its brought up here, I mine as well post what is fact, here.
Eisenhower said two very different things about dropping the Bomb on Japan in two books, which is closer to the truth, a book from 1948 or a book from 1963?
Nowhere does Eisenhower state that we should not use the bomb, that Japan is beaten and about to surrender. Eisenhower explicitly states the bomb would be used if Japan did not surrender. Eisenhower, "hoped" we would not have to be the first to use the bomb, because its powerful and destructive as well cause Eisenhower did not want our enemies to know that fission was achievved. . Much different than his much later statements. Why? So close to the when the bomb was dropped you would think we would have the most accurate statement from Eisenhower, yet nowhere does Eisenhower state to Stimson that we should not use the Bomb against Japan.
Further, there is a note, #25 for this chapter, which references Stimson's book, specifially Eisenhower references particular page numbers in Stimson's book where Stimson explicityly states nobody objected to dropping the bomb on Japan. Why would Eisenhower reference a book that contradicts Eisenhower, the fact is Eisenhower did not object to dropping the bomb on Japan.
But at the least, Eisenhower referencing Stimson is another post.
Eisenhower said two very different things about dropping the Bomb on Japan in two books, which is closer to the truth, a book from 1948 or a book from 1963?
Nowhere does Eisenhower state that we should not use the bomb, that Japan is beaten and about to surrender. Eisenhower explicitly states the bomb would be used if Japan did not surrender. Eisenhower, "hoped" we would not have to be the first to use the bomb, because its powerful and destructive as well cause Eisenhower did not want our enemies to know that fission was achievved. . Much different than his much later statements. Why? So close to the when the bomb was dropped you would think we would have the most accurate statement from Eisenhower, yet nowhere does Eisenhower state to Stimson that we should not use the Bomb against Japan.
Further, there is a note, #25 for this chapter, which references Stimson's book, specifially Eisenhower references particular page numbers in Stimson's book where Stimson explicityly states nobody objected to dropping the bomb on Japan. Why would Eisenhower reference a book that contradicts Eisenhower, the fact is Eisenhower did not object to dropping the bomb on Japan.
But at the least, Eisenhower referencing Stimson is another post.
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