Zone1 did Adam live for 930 years and Noah for 950 years?

[DukeU]

If Adam and Eve were perfect, then why did they transgress the command of God to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? No, you are wrong. They were imperfect beings who fell.

Adam and Eve were created perfect.

They became imperfect when the disobeyed God.

They did so because they were deceived by Satan.

 

[onefour1]

They were created perfect. But they were given choices

Satan was also created perfect

If a being were created perfect they would have a perfect understanding of good and evil and would never go against a command of God with their free will. Adam and Eve's bodies were immortal but their knowledge and understanding were not perfect. They chose to eat of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil because they were tempted by Satan that by doing so they would not die. If they were perfect, they should and would have had a perfect knowledge of good and evil and would have recognized that Satan was evil and would have trusted God completely. But her knowledge was imperfect and she believed in Satan's lie. I wouldn't call that perfection. However, it because necessary that because of the imperfection of Adam and Eve, they needed to experience the fall and come to know good and evil and learn to choose good over evil during a mortal probation.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

If a being were created perfect they would have a perfect understanding of good and evil and would never go against a command of God with their free will. Adam and Eve's bodies were immortal but their knowledge and understanding were not perfect. They chose to eat of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil because they were tempted by Satan that by doing so they would not die. If they were perfect, they should and would have had a perfect knowledge of good and evil and would have recognized that Satan was evil and would have trusted God completely. But her knowledge was imperfect and she believed in Satan's lie. I wouldn't call that perfection. However, it because necessary that because of the imperfection of Adam and Eve, they needed to experience the fall and come to know good and evil and learn to choose good over evil during a mortal probation.

Sorry no. That is not the definition of "perfect." They were not robots. They had free will and they had to make choices.

you were perfect in all your ways until iniquity was found in you

 

[onefour1]

Adam and Eve were created perfect.

They became imperfect when the disobeyed God.

They did so because they were deceived by Satan.

The were disobedient and deceived due to their imperfect knowledge of who Satan was and probably what death actually was. I wouldn't call their imperfect knowledge perfection. No they had their imperfections.

 

[DukeU]

The were disobedient and deceived due to their imperfect knowledge of who Satan was and probably what death actually was. I wouldn't call their imperfect knowledge perfection. No they had their imperfections.

Call it what you wish.

But, they were created without sin.

 

[onefour1]

Sorry no. That is not the definition of "perfect." They were not robots. They had free will and they had to make choices.

you were perfect in all your ways until iniquity was found in you

A perfect being with a perfect knowledge and understanding would recognize the difference between good and evil. Adam and Eve did not have this knowledge and thus were imperfect. This is why they made the choices they did. A perfect being would have the knowledge and understanding of good and evil and with their free will choice would use that knowledge and understanding to always choose the right. Adam and Eve did not have a knowledge of good and evil until after they had partaken of the forbidden fruit. After partaking, God said:

Genesis 3:22
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Only after partaking of the fruit did Adam and Eve gain a knowledge of good and evil. They actually progressed in their knowledge. A perfect being would not lack that knowledge. Why do you think God called the tree, "the tree of knowledge of good and evil"?

 

[onefour1]

Call it what you wish.

But, they were created without sin.

I was refuting the statement that Adam and Eve were perfect. They were not, even though they were without sin to begin with.

 

[DukeU]

I was refuting the statement that Adam and Eve were perfect. They were not, even though they were without sin to begin with.

Yes, they were.

They chose to disobey and as a result, they died.

If not for that choice they would still be alive.

 

[onefour1]

Yes, they were.

They chose to disobey and as a result, they died.

If not for that choice they would still be alive.

choosing to disobey is a sign of imperfection. A perfect being would know not to disobey of their own free will and choice.

 

[HikerGuy83]

I imagine that God did allow Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of life before they had fallen.

I suspect you are right. They were told they could eat from any tree except one.

They were immortal in the garden until they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Agreed.

God commanded them not to eat of it and after eating of it they had sinned against God.

It was a transgression (different from sin) in that right and wrong were not concepts that were known to them. But they were told that if they ate, something would happen and they would then become mortal. Until then, could they jump off a 200 ft cliff and still live? Regardless, they were specfically forbidden because in that day......they would die.

Thus if they partook of the tree of life at that time they would have been immortal and in sin.

That combination is never specifically addressed in the bible. It just says they got the boot and an angel was put in place to guard against their potentially eating of the fruit.

God's purpose was for them to go through a mortal probation to learn good from evil and learn to overcome sin.

There were a lot of purposes. But your point is that it was necessary for them to move forward.

 

[HikerGuy83]

If Adam and Eve were perfect, then why did they transgress the command of God to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? No, you are wrong. They were imperfect beings who fell.

Imperfect or incomplete?

In Hebrews 5 it states (speaking of Christ):

7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

So if the Savior was "made perfect" what does that mean. He was certainly sinless and had to be in order to be able to take upon him our sins and sorrows. And just what does it mean to be made perfect?

This speaks to the fact that Adam and Eve needed something more. As do we all. And we learn through the things we suffer (endure).

 

[HikerGuy83]

choosing to disobey is a sign of imperfection.

Not sure I agree. I think there is a chance Eve knew what she was getting into.

There was no progress without the fall.

Lehi says:

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

And we'd still be waiting.

I am not so sure she didn't eventually figure this out for herself. One of the things said to her was that her eyes would be opened. And it says in Genesis:

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

 

[HikerGuy83]

Yes, they were.

They chose to disobey and as a result, they died.

If not for that choice they would still be alive.

So why did he cut them off from the tree of life?

If they eat the fruit...problem fixed.

Or is it? Now that their eyes are opened?

 

[HikerGuy83]

So, eating of the tree took humanity from a state of purity and immortality to a state of impurity and mortality.

A state of innocence (and by association purity). But also a state of ignorance. God says, after they ate:

22 ¶ And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

So, now that they know good from evil, they can't be allowed to live forever. Not sure why that was the case (well, I do know...but it is never stated).

When they ate the fruit, something changed in them.

They became mortal and their eyes were opened. Something was awakened in them.

In mormon lore this is essential because:

11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad.

That is the whole purpose of this life. Make choices with your eyes open. That is how you demonstrate your faith.

Their partaking of the fruit was either an innocent mistake, or a purposeful effort to move this forward.

Notice they were commanded to replenish the earth.....but that didn't happen until after they ate the fruit. Could they....probably. I am not getting into the rest.

In mormon lore, Adam and Eve are essentially ultra valiant spirits chosen for this mission. Adam was foremost in our premortal state and let the battle against satan to have him expelled.

 

[HikerGuy83]

Probably means cognizant, realization.

Cognitionis the process by which all concious and unconcious learning takes placel. When they became mortal, they were subjected to the pulls of mortality.

In Hebrews 12 it states:
1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

That weight is the pull of mortality. It is emotion (anger, jealousy, lust, and whole host of other things). It is covetousness thoughts and all that comes with what you see in little children as they start to develop their thinking processes.

Little children don't need to be taught to be brats.

When they are hungry, they cry out. If they want a toy their brother has, they take it (or try) and will sometimes scream in anger when they don't get it.

This comes with mortality (often called the natural man).

 

[HikerGuy83]

Let's hope Gurney's didn't get a hold of some of the seeds to grow yet more of those trees!

It's interesting to think of the trees as real things. The fruit makes the difference. God lives by his own rules.

What was in that fruit !!!!!!!??????

 

[toobfreak]

The tree was representation of sin. Its purpose was to give them choice between good and evil, or in other words, choose to obey God's instruction. Yes, all people have instruction from God to avoid sin and accept him.

So sin is separation from God, lack of unity with him, acting apart. You are suggesting sin as knowledge of good and evil, in other words, sin not as /committing/ acts of evil, but the mere knowledge of them as being acts of evil.

 

[DukeU]

So sin is separation from God, lack of unity with him, acting apart. You are suggesting sin as knowledge of good and evil, in other words, sin not as /committing/ acts of evil, but the mere knowledge of them as being acts of evil.

For Adam and Eve it was both.

It was an act/sin specifically prohibited by God and as a result they recognized right and wrong.

Everyone born after that were born into sin and being in a fallen state.

Genesis 3​

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

 

[HikerGuy83]

For Adam and Eve it was both.

It was an act/sin specifically prohibited by God and as a result they recognized right and wrong.

Everyone born after that were born into sin and being in a fallen state.

Genesis 3​

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

How could they be guilty of sin if they didn't know (recognize) right and wrong until after they ate the fruit.

The fallen state of which you speak is that they were, by design, separated from God.

In that separation they could exercise agency without immediate consequence.

There is a reason that Satan was in the garden. You just don't want to acknowledge it.

Instead, you say, study. I have. Why do you think I have the position I do?

Why was Satan there?

How are Adam and Eve culpable in anything other than simply violating a natural law?

 

[HikerGuy83]

So sin is separation from God, lack of unity with him, acting apart.

Sin separated us from God in the sense that Adam and Eve and open access to him.

They became as God, knowing good and evil and were separated from him by virtue of their transgression.

In that state, they could demonstrate true faith. You could chose wrong and not get your bottom immediately paddled.

Cain murdered and "got away with it" (in the mortal sense). He won't in the eternal sense.

Faith and devotion to God were a matter of trusting in God and his promises.

You are suggesting sin as knowledge of good and evil, in other words, sin not as /committing/ acts of evil, but the mere knowledge of them as being acts of evil.

I am somewhat confused by the question. Sin is the commission of acts that go against the will of God. Knowing good from evil and having a choice allows you to show God that you chose God. Christ was foreordained to come to the earth as a savior because God knew the outcome from the Garden. It was necessary for man to be and for man to live and grow in faith.