"Christian" Religions which reject the Trinity Doctrine

[BS Filter]

He is a being of spirit but a spirit being has a spirit body and is in the same form as a being with a body.

That wasn't confusing at all.

Sorry I try to be concise but the meaning sometimes gets lost. Let me take a little more time and space.

We believe that all mankind existed as spirit children of God before coming to this earth. What is a spirit? We believe that a spirit has the same form or shape as a man or woman on this earth has except that its body is made of spiritual matter and not the course matter we have in this world. We believe that spirits have bodies of spiritual matter. For example, before the Lord came to this earth and took on a body of flesh and bones, he was in the form of a man as when he showed himself unto Moses:

Exodus 33:17-23
17 And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

The Lord as a spirit being had a face and back parts. To the prophet Joseph Smith the Lord revealed:

Doctrine and Covenants 131:7-8
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

Hopefully this is more clear.

As an addition, not only was Jesus in the form like a man but we believe that God the Eternal Father is the Man of Holiness. It is not that God is in the image of man but:

Genesis 1:26-27
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Does the Church of LDS believe these beliefs were hidden by Judaeo Christianity?

As shown to Moses in Exodus 33 and Genesis 1, I don't think these things were hidden at all. Both the Jews and the Christians believed and had access to the scriptures of the Old Testament. The premortal Christ had a spirit body with a face and back part the same as a man. Mankind were created in the image and likeness of God.

Where is the scripture that Jesus had a spirit body before he was born of Mary?

 

[onefour1]

But they didn't teach that men could become like God, right? Why not?

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

1 John 3:2-3
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

John 17:20-23
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

John 10:31-36
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Psalm 82:6
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

It is the will of God that we become like our Father in Heaven. Granted that we are not yet perfect as he is and will not reach that stage in our mortal existence, but this is the desire of God. He desires that we become like him and as his children we are of the race of gods. Gods beget gods. It is God's desire that we become one with the Father and the Son even as they are one. How is Jesus one with the Father? So in my estimation they clearly taught that man could become like they are.

 

[onefour1]

Where is the scripture that Jesus had a spirit body before he was born of Mary?

John 8:57-59
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Not just the LDS people but many other christian sects believe that Jesus was telling the Jews that he was the great I AM in verse 58. He was telling the Jews that he pre-existed his mortal life and was the Great I AM who revealed himself to Moses. For this reason the Jews took up stones to cast at him.

Exodus 3:13-14
13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

This is the same being who in Exodus 33 revealed his spirit body unto Moses:

Exodus 33:17-23
17 And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

 

[onefour1]

In our own image has nothing to with looks. It was a reference to creating a being that could think and reason, as God is able to do.

Adam also had a son who was in his very own Image and likeness.

Genesis 5:1-5
1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

Likeness
Strong's #1823: dmuwth (pronounced dem-ooth')
from 1819; resemblance; concretely, model, shape; adverbially, like:--fashion, like (-ness, as), manner, similitude.

Image
Strong's #6754: tselem (pronounced tseh'-lem)
from an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, i.e. (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence, a representative figure, especially an idol:--image, vain shew.

With the evidence of Exodus 33 and also other evidences such as when Stephen saw Jesus standing of the right hand of God. I find it evident that God created us to look like him. We are his children, the very offspring of God, why wouldn't we look like him?

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

This then begs the question, what should we think the Godhead is like? Especially in light of the fact that we are God's offspring.

 

[BS Filter]

Where is the scripture that Jesus had a spirit body before he was born of Mary?

John 8:57-59
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Not just the LDS people but many other christian sects believe that Jesus was telling the Jews that he was the great I AM in verse 58. He was telling the Jews that he pre-existed his mortal life and was the Great I AM who revealed himself to Moses. For this reason the Jews took up stones to cast at him.

Exodus 3:13-14
13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

This is the same being who in Exodus 33 revealed his spirit body unto Moses:

Exodus 33:17-23
17 And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

I agree with you that Jesus is I AM. However, I'm not sure that the description is of a body of flesh.

 

[kjw47]

I attempted to discuss this issue with a Jehovah Witness once. She told me Catholics overthink things which leads to getting it wrong.

Dear Compost cc: ding
the way I have RESOLVED this with Jehovah's Witness posters online
is citing John 10:29-30
And say BOTH interpretations are right
at the same time:

29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all;
no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one.”

This is JESUS speaking. and he says BOTH
that the Father is Greater than ALL (which the JW argue makes God distinct)
and that HE and the FATHER are ONE.

So I affirm both are right but they are emphasizing
one more than the other. These are NOT in conflict!

(As for the JW calling the Holy Spirit "active force"
I use that as an example of how they criticize others
for calling Jehovah "God", I point out the Bible refers
to the Holy Spirit as "Comforter" while "active force"
is DERIVED from scripture the JW cite about
a force moving over the waters. It doesn't literally
say ACTIVE Force verbatim. So they are EXPLAINING
what it means and it's not perfectly literal to the letter either!)

That's very good, Emily. Alas, the JW I spoke with was not willing to discuss the matter- even when I used direct quotes from Scripture! She was stuck on the idea that when educated people try to understand the Word they muck it up. And Catholics are too damned educated! (This might be the first time I've ever been insulted for being too educated! LOL.)

What bothers me is not that I believe JW are wrong about a Triune God, I'm more than happy to talk about it. What bothers me, at least in this case, of a woman repeatedly came to my home uninvited and unexpected telling me, in essence, that Catholics suck. It would never occur to me to tell a JW that they suck.

Two kinds of people in the world--- 1) those that believe Jesus--
2) Those that believe lies.

Jesus = John 20:17, Rev 3:12--making it 100% fact--no trinity exists--those serving it are breaking Gods #1 commandment daily.
JW,s don't say catholics suck--they say the religion is lies.=2Thess 2:3 is who they are and 32,999 branches( Mark 3:24-26)
All because a mistranslated capitol G GOD in the last line of John 1:1) -- The second line makes it impossible for a capitol G GOD to be in the last line because it makes the second line read--And God was with God= impossible--there is ONE God.

 

[onefour1]

I agree with you that Jesus is I AM. However, I'm not sure that the description is of a body of flesh.

A spirit body is not a body of flesh or bones but one of spirit matter. Jesus, after his resurrection, taught:

Luke 24:39
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

 

[ding]

But they didn't teach that men could become like God, right? Why not?

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

1 John 3:2-3
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

John 17:20-23
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

John 10:31-36
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Psalm 82:6
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

It is the will of God that we become like our Father in Heaven. Granted that we are not yet perfect as he is and will not reach that stage in our mortal existence, but this is the desire of God. He desires that we become like him and as his children we are of the race of gods. Gods beget gods. It is God's desire that we become one with the Father and the Son even as they are one. How is Jesus one with the Father? So in my estimation they clearly taught that man could become like they are.

But they didn't teach it. Why?

 

[ding]

I attempted to discuss this issue with a Jehovah Witness once. She told me Catholics overthink things which leads to getting it wrong.

Dear Compost cc: ding
the way I have RESOLVED this with Jehovah's Witness posters online
is citing John 10:29-30
And say BOTH interpretations are right
at the same time:

29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all;
no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one.”

This is JESUS speaking. and he says BOTH
that the Father is Greater than ALL (which the JW argue makes God distinct)
and that HE and the FATHER are ONE.

So I affirm both are right but they are emphasizing
one more than the other. These are NOT in conflict!

(As for the JW calling the Holy Spirit "active force"
I use that as an example of how they criticize others
for calling Jehovah "God", I point out the Bible refers
to the Holy Spirit as "Comforter" while "active force"
is DERIVED from scripture the JW cite about
a force moving over the waters. It doesn't literally
say ACTIVE Force verbatim. So they are EXPLAINING
what it means and it's not perfectly literal to the letter either!)

That's very good, Emily. Alas, the JW I spoke with was not willing to discuss the matter- even when I used direct quotes from Scripture! She was stuck on the idea that when educated people try to understand the Word they muck it up. And Catholics are too damned educated! (This might be the first time I've ever been insulted for being too educated! LOL.)

What bothers me is not that I believe JW are wrong about a Triune God, I'm more than happy to talk about it. What bothers me, at least in this case, of a woman repeatedly came to my home uninvited and unexpected telling me, in essence, that Catholics suck. It would never occur to me to tell a JW that they suck.

Two kinds of people in the world--- 1) those that believe Jesus--
2) Those that believe lies.

Jesus = John 20:17, Rev 3:12--making it 100% fact--no trinity exists--those serving it are breaking Gods #1 commandment daily.
JW,s don't say catholics suck--they say the religion is lies.=2Thess 2:3 is who they are and 32,999 branches( Mark 3:24-26)
All because a mistranslated capitol G GOD in the last line of John 1:1) -- The second line makes it impossible for a capitol G GOD to be in the last line because it makes the second line read--And God was with God= impossible--there is ONE God.

There's actually all kinds of people in the world.

I think you get in God's way.

 

[BS Filter]

I agree with you that Jesus is I AM. However, I'm not sure that the description is of a body of flesh.

A spirit body is not a body of flesh or bones but one of spirit matter. Jesus, after his resurrection, taught:

Luke 24:39
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Yes, Jesus has a body of flesh and bones, no blood.

 

[kjw47]

I attempted to discuss this issue with a Jehovah Witness once. She told me Catholics overthink things which leads to getting it wrong.

Dear Compost cc: ding
the way I have RESOLVED this with Jehovah's Witness posters online
is citing John 10:29-30
And say BOTH interpretations are right
at the same time:

29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all;
no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one.”

This is JESUS speaking. and he says BOTH
that the Father is Greater than ALL (which the JW argue makes God distinct)
and that HE and the FATHER are ONE.

So I affirm both are right but they are emphasizing
one more than the other. These are NOT in conflict!

(As for the JW calling the Holy Spirit "active force"
I use that as an example of how they criticize others
for calling Jehovah "God", I point out the Bible refers
to the Holy Spirit as "Comforter" while "active force"
is DERIVED from scripture the JW cite about
a force moving over the waters. It doesn't literally
say ACTIVE Force verbatim. So they are EXPLAINING
what it means and it's not perfectly literal to the letter either!)

That's very good, Emily. Alas, the JW I spoke with was not willing to discuss the matter- even when I used direct quotes from Scripture! She was stuck on the idea that when educated people try to understand the Word they muck it up. And Catholics are too damned educated! (This might be the first time I've ever been insulted for being too educated! LOL.)

What bothers me is not that I believe JW are wrong about a Triune God, I'm more than happy to talk about it. What bothers me, at least in this case, of a woman repeatedly came to my home uninvited and unexpected telling me, in essence, that Catholics suck. It would never occur to me to tell a JW that they suck.

Two kinds of people in the world--- 1) those that believe Jesus--
2) Those that believe lies.

Jesus = John 20:17, Rev 3:12--making it 100% fact--no trinity exists--those serving it are breaking Gods #1 commandment daily.
JW,s don't say catholics suck--they say the religion is lies.=2Thess 2:3 is who they are and 32,999 branches( Mark 3:24-26)
All because a mistranslated capitol G GOD in the last line of John 1:1) -- The second line makes it impossible for a capitol G GOD to be in the last line because it makes the second line read--And God was with God= impossible--there is ONE God.

There's actually all kinds of people in the world.

I think you get in God's way.

God is about to show all that there are 2 kinds--The righteous=Few--The wicked= Many.

 

[onefour1]

But they didn't teach it. Why?

Not sure who "they" are in your sentence, but I have shown you that Jesus taught it in post #222.

 

[onefour1]

Yes, Jesus has a body of flesh and bones, no blood.

Yes, after he resurrected. When he appeared before Moses in Exodus 33, he did not have a body of flesh and bones. He was a personage of spirit. Spirits do not have a body of flesh and bones as Jesus taught:

Luke 24:39
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

 

[BS Filter]

Yes, Jesus has a body of flesh and bones, no blood.

Yes, after he resurrected. When he appeared before Moses in Exodus 33, he did not have a body of flesh and bones. He was a personage of spirit. Spirits do not have a body of flesh and bones as Jesus taught:

Luke 24:39
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

I have a question. Do you believe Jesus is eternal God?

 

[onefour1]

I have a question. Do you believe Jesus is eternal God?

I believe that Jesus has immortality and that he also has eternal life. As a member of the Godhead, Jesus is God. In that respect, yes.

 

[BS Filter]

I have a question. Do you believe Jesus is eternal God?

I believe that Jesus has immortality and that he also has eternal life. As a member of the Godhead, Jesus is God. In that respect, yes.

Tricky. Is Jesus eternal, in that he always was God. No beginning.

 

[ding]

But they didn't teach it. Why?

Not sure who "they" are in your sentence, but I have shown you that Jesus taught it in post #222.

It has never been taught in Jewish or Christian dogma. The LDS are the only ones. It is a central component of your dogma. It is a very important point in your faith. One could even say the main point. It is odd that no one has ever had that belief except the LDS. How could such an important belief been overlooked all those years.

Probably because Jesus did not teach that.

 

[onefour1]

But they didn't teach it. Why?

Not sure who "they" are in your sentence, but I have shown you that Jesus taught it in post #222.

It has never been taught in Jewish or Christian dogma. The LDS are the only ones. It is a central component of your dogma. It is a very important point in your faith. One could even say the main point. It is odd that no one has ever had that belief except the LDS. How could such an important belief been overlooked all those years.

Probably because Jesus did not teach that.

At the time Jesus arrived in the flesh on this earth, the Jews were in a state of apostasy and would later reject Jesus and cry out for his crucifixion. They would not accept the teachings of the great I AM. Later in 70 A.D. they were scattered among all nations. Not until in latter-days would we see the Jews start to gather into the true fold. So looking unto them for the words of Jesus as the revelation of the word of God is not really something I would lean toward, though many other things can be learned from them.

Regarding Christians, in an article entitled "Becoming Like God", we read the following:

"Latter-day Saint beliefs would have sounded more familiar to the earliest generations of Christians than they do to many modern Christians. Many church fathers (influential theologians and teachers in early Christianity) spoke approvingly of the idea that humans can become divine. One modern scholar refers to the “ubiquity of the doctrine of deification”—the teaching that humans could become God—in the first centuries after Christ’s death.11 The church father Irenaeus, who died about A.D. 202, asserted that Jesus Christ “did, through His transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be what He is Himself.”12 Clement of Alexandria (ca. A.D. 150–215) wrote that “the Word of God became man, that thou mayest learn from man how man may become God.”13Basil the Great (A.D. 330–379) also celebrated this prospect—not just “being made like to God,” but “highest of all, the being made God.”14

What exactly the early church fathers meant when they spoke of becoming God is open to interpretation,15 but it is clear that references to deification became more contested in the late Roman period and were infrequent by the medieval era. The first known objection by a church father to teaching deification came in the fifth century.16 By the sixth century, teachings on “becoming God” appear more limited in scope, as in the definition provided by Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite (ca. A.D. 500): “Deification … is the attaining of likeness to God and union with him so far as is possible.”17

Why did these beliefs fade from prominence? Changing perspectives on the creation of the world may have contributed to the gradual shift toward more limited views of human potential. The earliest Jewish and Christian commentaries on the Creation assumed that God had organized the world out of preexisting materials, emphasizing the goodness of God in shaping such a life-sustaining order.18 But the incursion of new philosophical ideas in the second century led to the development of a doctrine that God created the universe ex nihilo—“out of nothing.” This ultimately became the dominant teaching about the Creation within the Christian world.19 In order to emphasize God’s power, many theologians reasoned that nothing could have existed for as long as He had. It became important in Christian circles to assert that God had originally been completely alone.

Creation ex nihilo widened the perceived gulf between God and humans. It became less common to teach either that human souls had existed before the world or that they could inherit and develop the attributes of God in their entirety in the future.20 Gradually, as the depravity of humankind and the immense distance between Creator and creature were increasingly emphasized, the concept of deification faded from Western Christianity,21 though it remains a central tenet of Eastern Orthodoxy, one of the three major branches of Christianity.22"
​

From this article I would believe that many early Christians did have this belief but as time went on they fell away from it.

 

[The Irish Ram]

"Christian" Religions which reject the Trinity Doctrine

Run from them.

 

[onefour1]

I have a question. Do you believe Jesus is eternal God?

I believe that Jesus has immortality and that he also has eternal life. As a member of the Godhead, Jesus is God. In that respect, yes.

Tricky. Is Jesus eternal, in that he always was God. No beginning.

We do not believe that God the Father or Jesus Christ were Gods for the infinite past. Much of what we believe regarding this topic can be found in Joseph Smith's discourse known as the King Follett Discourse or Sermon.

The King Follett Sermon