China to have 150 more ships than US by 2028 under Biden budget, Navy secretary admits

[Donald H]

Texas is also a US state. Who exactly are they going to sell them to, the Governor?

And Mexico is an independent nation, they can buy equipment from whoever in the hell they want.

Of course, they themselves have quite an arms industry so I am not sure how much they would actually want to buy.

As for the rest of their equipment, a lot is actually French and German manufacture or COTS.

Oh, but their workhorse helicopters for decades have actually been Soviet-Russian made Mi-8 and Mi-26 helicopters. And the US really did not give a damn when they started buying Soviet equipment during the Cold War, what makes you think they would give a damn if they started buying Chinese equipment now?

If I've hurt your feelings then I take back everything I've said.
Now we're finished.

 

[Mushroom]

That is the rub

China has never engaged in modern naval warfare and is unfamiliar with tactics

And this is the biggest thing that people should realize.

In reality, the PLAN is not a Navy as the rest of the world thinks, it is more akin to an uparmed Coast Guard. And that is exactly how it is used, as a coast guard.

They almost never leave their own waters and enter International Waters. They almost never operate in conjunction with other ships, almost always completely independent of each other. And almost never stay at sea for more than a week or so before returning to port.

No matter what one calls it, that is not a Navy, that is a Coast Guard. And as that is the role it takes, then to be completely fair one should add in the US Coast Guard to the US numbers.

And the biggest differences is that China essentially does not have a Navy. Fleet operations are almost never conducted, and rarely for more than a 2 week exercise. There is a hell of a lot involved in a "fleet" operating at sea, and China has absolutely no experience in doing that.

Also, their UNREP is believed to be a complete joke. Once again, this goes back to their "short legs", and almost never putting to sea for more than 2 weeks at a time. Their capability of keeping a fleet supplies for long periods of time at sea is largely considered to be a joke. They crowed how awesome they were a few years ago when they did a single UNREP mission at the very end of an exercise, and all the ships immediately returned to port. A lot of experts even question if they really did an UNREP at all, and just faked it.

The US on the other hand is considered to be the best at that in the world. Keeping entire fleets supplied for up to a year half way around the world. And routinely suppling them with all needs for 6 months at a time. And almost exclusively operating their ships in groups and fleets of a dozen or more all working together. Something that the PLAN has almost no experience in doing at all.

No, China's Naval blueprint is actually like that of the mid-late 19th century and well over 100 years out of date. And as I have been saying for years now, I am almost completely underwhelmed by the capabilities exhibited by the PLAN. However, I will start to at least consider them something more than a complete and utter joke when they start routinely putting to sea as a fleet and conducting fleet operations in a distant ocean, and doing so for at least 5 months at a time.

Because as how they use their ships (especially their Heavy Aircraft Carry Cruisers), you might as well give the US Coast Guard some Tarawa and Wasp class LPH and LHD ships and state they are the first Coast Guard Aircraft Carriers.

 

[Mushroom]

If I've hurt your feelings then I take back everything I've said.

Not hurt at all, seriously confused me is all as what you have been saying makes exactly no sense.

Who in Texas are they going to sell this equipment to?

 

[Mushroom]

But a lot of their ships will be junk.

I will admit, most of the ships of the PLAN are actually pretty good.

However, the doctrine of the PLAN is a complete joke. And as such, the quality of the ships really does not matter at all.

As an example, think of it as the way the German Navy used their capitol ships in WWII. In essence, they used them horribly and were trying to operate their ships as if it was the middle to late 19th century. In their most famous sortie, they sent out the "Pride of the German Navy" with a single Cruiser, and a handful of cargo vessels. Yes, the Bismarck did indeed sink the Hood and damaged the Prince of Wales, but all should know exactly what happened next.

The two capitol ships were hopelessly outmaneuvered by the highly experienced British Navy, and the two ships had to separate. The bunkers of the Prinz Eugen were almost empty as were her magazines, and she withdrew from the action leaving the Bismarck alone. Finally near the coast of France it met up with a Destroyer escort and retreated to port in Brest as the Pride of the German Navy was soon turned into an artificial reef.

And for the rest of the war, the German Navy was almost a complete and utter joke. The Prince Eugen was kept in port until constant damage from UK Bombing caused them to pull it up to Northern Germany. And the entire time there it was trying to fight of UK ships and fighters and was heavily damaged. And after a lengthy repair she spent the rest of the war in the Baltic, and had almost no impact or influence on the war.

The fact is, as much money as Germany sank into their Navy, it was never used effectively. Because they were trying to use outdated naval concepts that had not even worked in WWI. I mean hell, look no farther than the Admiral Graf Spee. Sent out largely on their own at the start of the war as a commerce raider, which to be honest is a wasteful use of a Heavy Cruiser. But she did well, sinking 9 commercial vessels in 4 months.

Then she got jumped by three British cruisers, was badly damaged and had to retreat. The Brits kept it bottled up at Montevideo in Uruguay, with not enough fuel or munitions to fight through them and with damage she could not repair. Realizing how hopeless the situation was, the Captain ordered his own ship scuttled.

Those were just a few examples of the German Navy in WWII, and China is at about the same state when it comes to Naval Operations. And to be completely honest, I would expect the results to be about the same as the Germans in WWII. Do some damage, but then go down gloriously to become reefs as they simply are not versed or experienced in actual fleet operations. And even if they threw together a dozen ships, they would not operate like a fleet like the US, Japan, UK, or most other navies of the world operate. They will operate like a dozen ships simply thrown together.

 

[AZrailwhale]

China is honouring the agreement in H.K.

A quite amazing example of their peaceful intentions, in the face of America's and Britain's intentions to call the agreement null and void.

Of course it didn't work and peace has been restored to H.K.

As to the Uighurs, China has adopted a plan to re-educate Islamic terrorists, as opposed to America's method of slaughter. (see Iraq)

You really not that ignorant, are you? The treaty guaranteed Hoing Kong home rule, "one China, two systems" As soon as Hong Kong refused to tow the Communist line the PRC dissolved the government and placed CCP personnel in all leadership positions. Hong Kong is now ruled like any other city in China by a corrupt kleptocracy loyal only to their wallets and the Communist government in Beijing at bayonet point. The citizens of Hong Kong have lost all the freedoms the CCP and government of the PRC guaranteed them in the treaty with the UK and Hong Kong governments.

 

[Mushroom]

The citizens of Hong Kong have lost all the freedoms the CCP and government of the PRC guaranteed them in the treaty with the UK and Hong Kong governments.

Not unlike the promise that North Vietnam made that it would never again invade South Vietnam.

I for one have absolutely no trust in the word of Marxist and Communist nations. They will break any made if they think they can profit from doing so.

 

[rightwinger]

Not unlike the promise that North Vietnam made that it would never again invade South Vietnam.

I for one have absolutely no trust in the word of Marxist and Communist nations. They will break any made if they think they can profit from doing so.

Or the agreement we made to allow Vietnam free elections on reuniting

 

[AZrailwhale]

Or the agreement we made to allow Vietnam free elections on reuniting

You mean the ones Uncle Ho was setting up to steal like the Soviets did in Eastern Europe? Ho had killed, imprisoned or driven any opposition in North Vietnam out of the country and was prepared to do so in the south before the proposed elections. We had very recent experience in how communist governments couldn’t be trusted. Poland, Czechlosvakia, Hungry, the Baltics, Serbia, how many elections stolen by communists do you want me to list?

 

[Mushroom]

Or the agreement we made to allow Vietnam free elections on reuniting

North Vietnam was already attacking and invading South Vietnam even before then. The Geneva Accords called for an election in 1956, but by 1955 North Vietnam was already attacking South Vietnam.

That would be akin of Russia at this time demanding "Free Elections" in Ukraine to determine which country rules the eastern part of the nation.

And there were two plans for the "elections". North Vietnam and the Soviet Union wanted elections to be monitored by "local administrators", which South Vietnam, the UK and US all rejected. The US proposed the elections by monitored by the UN, and the Soviets and North Vietnamese rejected that proposal. So the eventual agreement only stated "elections", with how they would be monitored to be determined later. By that time the insurgency in South Vietnam was already under way, so they outright rejected any elections until North Vietnam ended their aggressions.

 

[rightwinger]

North Vietnam was already attacking and invading South Vietnam even before then. The Geneva Accords called for an election in 1956, but by 1955 North Vietnam was already attacking South Vietnam.

That would be akin of Russia at this time demanding "Free Elections" in Ukraine to determine which country rules the eastern part of the nation.

And there were two plans for the "elections". North Vietnam and the Soviet Union wanted elections to be monitored by "local administrators", which South Vietnam, the UK and US all rejected. The US proposed the elections by monitored by the UN, and the Soviets and North Vietnamese rejected that proposal. So the eventual agreement only stated "elections", with how they would be monitored to be determined later. By that time the insurgency in South Vietnam was already under way, so they outright rejected any elections until North Vietnam ended their aggressions.

The US realized Ho Chi Minh would win so they blocked the elections

 

[Kruska]

My point wasn't to claim it will definitely happen, but that we're naive to believe it can't.

China has absolutely no problem with One country Two systems since that was instituted into it's constitution and proclaimed by Deng Xiaoping more then 45 years ago.

Presently there is a party ruling Taiwan that garnered it's 35%, via the majority of the Taiwanese population being in favor for an independent state.
Being in favor of independence and going into a war about it, are two essentially different issues. There is absolutely no majority in Taiwan that would be ready to go into a war.

The USA knows about this since decades and is therefore simply inciting any issue to make people on Taiwan and around the world to believe that China want's to attack Taiwan.
And since 2018 the USA and most of the Western countries got themselves into a state of Taiwan-paranoia.

The USA is not even interested in an independent Taiwan via war - since it's initiation and continuous protection would bankrupt the USA - not even to mention military losses.
But to station a US military presence on Taiwan is the true agenda. Kind of a floating massive carrier right in front of China's doorstep.

The only way for the USA to succeed towards this is via continuous warmongering towards China, so as to get all kinds of allies into this "fear" equation. And to commit Taiwan towards a huge military spending to which however Taiwan simply isn't willing and never was in the past 40 years. So still a lot of war mongering needs to be done in respect to the Taiwanese gov. and its population.

The actual agenda to make Taiwan independent (via peaceful means) is via economic pressure towards China.
Simply put; EU/USA and the democratic world let's boycott China - till they voluntarily admit towards an independent Taiwan. In the meantime keep the $$ of the military industrial complex rolling.

And rest assured - China is absolutely aware of this.

 

[Kruska]

However, the doctrine of the PLAN is a complete joke. And as such, the quality of the ships really does not matter at all.

Absolute horseshit ... what would you know about the PLAN doctrine? nothing, or are you a member of their standing and central military committee?
Oh I forgot - you must be on a daily communication basis with the US military attache in Beijing - who tells you all about it, since he supposedly knows all about it.

Not to mention about bringing in the Bismarck to act as an example towards your personal assumptions, that are never backed up via substantiated posts - just personal Blah, Blah.

 

[Flash]

Potatohead is doing exactly what his Chinese handlers want him to do, create a weak American military and economy.

The Chinese making the Biden family rich and then creating the Pandemic to undermine Trump so that the Democrats could steal the election and their man installed in the White House was a very successful operation, wasn't it?

 

[rightwinger]

Absolute horseshit ... what would you know about the PLAN doctrine? nothing, or are you a member of their standing and central military committee?
Oh I forgot - you must be on a daily communication basis with the US military attache in Beijing - who tells you all about it, since he supposedly knows all about it.

Not to mention about bringing in the Bismarck to act as an example towards your personal assumptions, that are never backed up via substantiated posts - just personal Blah, Blah.

You think we don’t have satellites watching how China deploys its ships and how they function as a task force?

 

[rightwinger]

You mean the ones Uncle Ho was setting up to steal like the Soviets did in Eastern Europe?

Ho Chi Minh was a national hero

Unlike the puppet Government the Colonial powers set up

 

[Kruska]

You think we don’t have satellites watching how China deploys its ships and how they function as a task force?

And the satellites show which gun fires, at what rate, first, and who directs it? come on you got to do better then that.

 

[rightwinger]

And the satellites show which gun fires, at what rate, first, and who directs it? come on you got to do better then that.

We are perfectly aware of what weapons China has on their ships. They are aware of ours.
Naval Warfare is much more complex than……We got guns, you got guns

It is a three dimensional battle zone executed from sea level, air and undersea.

We are masters at it, China is still playing Checkers

 

[Mac-7]

Ho Chi Minh was a national hero

Unlike the puppet Government the Colonial powers set up

Wrong

Catholics and other non communists had good reason to fear being ruled by a communist dictatorship

Ho was more a hero to drug-soaked hippy war protestors in America than the south vietnamese people, many of whom were refugees from the north

 

[rightwinger]

Wrong

Catholics and other non communists had good reason to fear being ruled by a communist dictatorship

Ho was more a hero to drug-soaked hippy war protestors in America than the south vietnamese people, many of whom were refugees from the north

The French were forcing Catholicism on primarily Buddhist Vietnam.

Ho Chi Minh pleaded with the West to abandon colonial control and allow a free Vietnam.
The West laughed him off……..The Communists didn’t.

 

[Kruska]

Naval Warfare is much more complex than……We got guns, you got guns

Exactly - so satellites don't tell you anything about command structure and especially not as to the operation of weapon systems and anything else that beholds.

It is three dimensional warfare executed from sea level, air and undersea.

You forgot another component

We are masters at it, China is still playing Checkers

Really? when was the last naval engagement by the USN? aside from launching Tomahawks at Iraq?