Zone1 Catholics, is it the official position of the Catholic church that abortion is infanticide?

[Votto]

I ask this because rampart, a poster here, said the following.

francis does not lead an organization that considers abortion to be "genocide." neither does biden.

we do consider liberation theology to be an impportant movement within the "godless" left. francis is certainly aware of that.

otherwise, not one infallible word uttered by fransis since white smoke rose from the chapel contradicts the teachings of christ.

I had just assumed that they viewed abortion infanticide, both from everything I have heard from the church and what I have read about the church.

 

[Mashmont]

I don't know that abortion falls within the dictionary definition of genocide, which is "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group." But that's irrelevant. The RCC considers abortion evil like they do the killing of any other human being.

 

[Votto]

Hebrew 4:12

For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

If the word of God does not convict you of sin and demand you to change, you are doing it wrong.

This message is for those on the right AND left. It bows its knee to no one.

Thanks for playing.

 

[Votto]

I don't know that abortion falls within the dictionary definition of genocide, which is "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group." But that's irrelevant. The RCC considers abortion evil like they do the killing of any other human being.

Who here can supply the official wording on the Catholic church stance on abortion?

Anyone?

 

[Mashmont]

Who here can supply the official wording on the Catholic church stance on abortion?

Anyone?

2270

Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person — among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.72Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.73
My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.
2271

Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.75
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.
2272

Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"77 "by the very commission of the offense,"78 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.79 The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

2273

The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:"The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being's right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death."80
"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. ... As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child's rights."
2274

Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.Prenatal diagnosis is morally licit, "if it respects the life and integrity of the embryo and the human fetus and is directed toward its safe guarding or healing as an individual. ... It is gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent of a death sentence."82

2275
"One must hold as licit procedures carried out on the human embryo which respect the life and integrity of the embryo and do not involve disproportionate risks for it, but are directed toward its healing the improvement of its condition of health, or its individual survival."83
"It is immoral to produce human embryos intended for exploitation as disposable biological material."84
"Certain attempts to influence chromosomic or genetic inheritance are not therapeutic but are aimed at producing human beings selected according to sex or other predetermined qualities. Such manipulations are contrary to the personal dignity of the human being and his integrity and identity"85 which are unique and unrepeatable.

Search the Catechism

 

[konradv]

I ask this because rampart, a poster here, said the following.

francis does not lead an organization that considers abortion to be "genocide." neither does biden.

we do consider liberation theology to be an impportant movement within the "godless" left. francis is certainly aware of that.

otherwise, not one infallible word uttered by fransis since white smoke rose from the chapel contradicts the teachings of christ.

I had just assumed that they viewed abortion infanticide, both from everything I have heard from the church and what I have read about the church.

It’s not considered infanticide, if the fetus isn’t even viable. The charge is just used as red meat to drum up anti-abortion support.

 

[Votto]

2270

Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person — among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.72Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.73
My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.
2271

Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.75
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.
2272

Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"77 "by the very commission of the offense,"78 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.79 The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

2273

The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:"The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being's right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death."80
"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. ... As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child's rights."
2274

Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.Prenatal diagnosis is morally licit, "if it respects the life and integrity of the embryo and the human fetus and is directed toward its safe guarding or healing as an individual. ... It is gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent of a death sentence."82

2275
"One must hold as licit procedures carried out on the human embryo which respect the life and integrity of the embryo and do not involve disproportionate risks for it, but are directed toward its healing the improvement of its condition of health, or its individual survival."83
"It is immoral to produce human embryos intended for exploitation as disposable biological material."84
"Certain attempts to influence chromosomic or genetic inheritance are not therapeutic but are aimed at producing human beings selected according to sex or other predetermined qualities. Such manipulations are contrary to the personal dignity of the human being and his integrity and identity"85 which are unique and unrepeatable.

Search the Catechism

So, Rampart was lying

Thanks for that.

 

[Votto]

It’s not considered infanticide, if the fetus isn’t even viable. The charge is just used as red meat to drum up anti-abortion support.

That is the legal wording.

But at one time, legally speaking, blacks were not considered equals with whites after the Dred Scott Decision, nor the Jews in Nazi Germany.

Who cares?

Seriously, who cares?

 

[konradv]

That is the legal wording.

But at one time, legally speaking, blacks were not considered equals with whites after the Dred Scott Decision, nor the Jews in Nazi Germany.

Who cares?

Seriously, who cares?

I think you’re being very insulting to blacks and Jews!

 

[Votto]

I think you’re being very insulting to blacks and Jews!

No, who cares what the state rules? Them ruling they are not equal to whites does not make it so and should be ignored

Again, our rights don't come from the 9 black robes or President Potato head, they come from God.

That is something you can never fathom.

 

[Libby von H]

I ask this because rampart, a poster here, said the following.

francis does not lead an organization that considers abortion to be "genocide." neither does biden.

we do consider liberation theology to be an impportant movement within the "godless" left. francis is certainly aware of that.

otherwise, not one infallible word uttered by fransis since white smoke rose from the chapel contradicts the teachings of christ.

I had just assumed that they viewed abortion infanticide, both from everything I have heard from the church and what I have read about the church.

This is a problem, people like you assessing what is the true position.


It is here in the Catechism plain as anything can be
Abortion ⇡
1703
357
(all)2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person — among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.72
Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.73
My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.74

72. Cf. CDF, Donum vitae I,1.
73. Jer 1:5; cf. Job 10:8-12; Ps 22:10-11.
74. Ps 139:15.
2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:
You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.75
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.76

75. Didache 2,2:SCh 248,148; cf. Ep. Barnabae 19,5G 2 777; Ad Diognetum 5,6G 2,1173; Tertullian, Apol. 9L 1,319-320.
76. GS 51 § 3.
1463
(all)2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"77 "by the very commission of the offense,"78 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.79 The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.
77. CIC, can. 1398.
78. CIC, can. 1314.
79. Cf. CIC, cann. 1323-1324.
1930
(all)2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:
"The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being's right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death."80
"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. ... As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child's rights."81

80. CDF, Donum vitae III.
81. CDF, Donum vitae III.
2274 Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.
Prenatal diagnosis is morally licit, "if it respects the life and integrity of the embryo and the human fetus and is directed toward its safe guarding or healing as an individual. ... It is gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent of a death sentence."82
82. CDF, Donum vitae I,2.
2275
"One must hold as licit procedures carried out on the human embryo which respect the life and integrity of the embryo and do not involve disproportionate risks for it, but are directed toward its healing the improvement of its condition of health, or its individual survival."83
"It is immoral to produce human embryos intended for exploitation as disposable biological material."84

"Certain attempts to influence chromosomic or genetic inheritance are not therapeutic but are aimed at producing human beings selected according to sex or other predetermined qualities. Such manipulations are contrary to the personal dignity of the human being and his integrity and identity"85 which are unique and unrepeatable.

83. CDF, Donum vitae I,3.
84. CDF, Donum vitae I,5.
85. CDF, Donum vitae I,6.


But the witness of Feminists who are Doctors should be enough

First Female Feminist Physicians Opposed Abortion, too. – Feminists for Life

 

[forkintheroad7]

I ask this because rampart, a poster here, said the following.

francis does not lead an organization that considers abortion to be "genocide." neither does biden.

we do consider liberation theology to be an impportant movement within the "godless" left. francis is certainly aware of that.

otherwise, not one infallible word uttered by fransis since white smoke rose from the chapel contradicts the teachings of christ.

I had just assumed that they viewed abortion infanticide, both from everything I have heard from the church and what I have read about the church.

Whoever said that is not a true Catholic and that is not judging, that's just knowing Catholicism (and therefore what is NOT).

Francis has been wrong on many things. Many traditionalists say he is not a real pope. A real pope teaches and upholds the Catholic faith. Gee, whoda thunk?

Somewhere in the Word it speaks of how even the elect, in the last days, will be subject to deceit, if they are not careful (my paraphrase).

If it doesn't walk like a duck or quack like a duck------------

 

[forkintheroad7]

Abortion is absolutely infanticide

 

[Votto]

Whoever said that is not a true Catholic and that is not judging, that's just knowing Catholicism (and therefore what is NOT).

Francis has been wrong on many things. Many traditionalists say he is not a real pope. A real pope teaches and upholds the Catholic faith. Gee, whoda thunk?

Somewhere in the Word it speaks of how even the elect, in the last days, will be subject to deceit, if they are not careful (my paraphrase).

If it doesn't walk like a duck or quack like a duck------------

I heard someone say they thought he was an atheist.

Would you agree?

 

[forkintheroad7]

I heard someone say they thought he was an atheist.

Would you agree?

francis?

Whatever he is, he is not a Christian in the true sense of the word. The Church has been infiltrated by many UN-Christian people: communists and etc.
They saw this big Church and just had to get their paws on it so as to control as many people as possible. It's a bit more complicated than that, but

the devil is not stupid

 

[zaangalewa]

... francis does not lead an organization that considers abortion to be "genocide." ...

I'm a Catholic and I think to bring a mother into a position so she feels she has to think it's her free will to let kill her own baby is not genocide. It's more comparable with a kind of extended form of suicide which is indeed made from someone else who I would call currently "we". Everyone of us (of all human beings) is not only an "I" - everyone is also a "we". And "we" is able to be as wrong as "I" is able to be wrong. That's why "we" and "I" need a partner: god and his living truth.
I think de facto nearly all abortions - but not every abortion - are wrong. And as a cause of this abortions I do not see primarily the free will of women and their right of self-determination but more the will of faithless men and the hopeless situations of many women who trust in this wrong men. I see in abortion a method of the male sex to enslave women and not the duty of the male sex to protect women. Children and women first! God is life.

 

[zaangalewa]

It’s not considered infanticide, if the fetus isn’t even viable. ...

If a human fetus isn't viable - why to do an abortion?

 

[zaangalewa]

francis?

Whatever he is, he is not a Christian in the true sense of the word. ...

First: It exists no true sense of the word "Christian". This name was used from pagans for us because we called Jesus "the anointed" (=the Christ). Meanwhile most of us use this name and we use our own name "children of god" for all human beings. Some know that they are children of god (=Christians) and some still do not know that they are children of god. So let me sarcastically say: Do you? Are you sure you are on your own a child of god?
What a bad luck now that you are a human being and so my sarcasm is without any effect. But 'seriosly' let me say: Why for heavens sake says a grown up old man such a bullshit as you are doing here? Do you need a brain transplantation?

 

[zaangalewa]

... nor the Jews in Nazi Germany. ...

The Jews in Nazi-Germany had been Germans like all others. The Nazis not had been Germans like all others.

 

[konradv]

If a human fetus isn't viable - why to do an abortion?

Why put the mother through a still birth?