Capitalism exists to oppress the bottom and protect the top - change my mind

[Ray From Cleveland]

NOTHING ever "just happens" in the economy. Every tax cut to the wealthy accelerates the transfer of wealth from the working and middle class to the top 1%. Republicans know this, and yet they continue to cut taxes for the wealthiest Americans.

Neither Jeff Bezos nor Amazon - one of the world's two wealthiest men, and the world's largest retailer, pay any personal or corporate income taxes at all. There used to be a basic personal income tax for millionaires, but Trump cancelled that one. If was affecting him personally.

Right wing media is ENTIRELY OWNED BY BILLIONAIRES, who promote the lie that the Democrats are trying to destroy the nation by taxing the wealthy. These guys are benefitting from the tax cuts, so off course they want to make sure Republicans are in office. They promote the lie that Republicans are "better for the economy" than Democrats.

3 of the last 4 Republican Presidents have crashed the economy, impoverishing millions of working Americans, and benefitting the millionaire class. Every Republican bailout of the crashed economy has been paid to privately owned corporations and banks, with little to nothing going to working Americans, or those most economically impacted by the crash.

Republicans promote the fiction that working people need to be kept poor and desperate and giving them money or unemployment benefits, is a "disincentive" to work. If that's true how do Canada, Norway, or Germany get any of their citizens to take jobs?????? We all have cradle to the grave social programs and "free shit" for everybody? Norway gives you FREE university education and money to live on if you're an artist or want to be "creative" and they have a higher GDP per capita than Americans.

Stop drinking the Republican economic Kool-Aid brought to you by Rupert Murdoch, Robert Mercer, and the Sinclair Family - multi-billionaires all.

Since you know so much, riddle me this: If Republicans are so for the rich, why are the most wealthiest Americans leftists? Second question: where do Democrats get their money from at campaign time if they are so anti-wealth? Trump was out raised by both Hillary and Dementia. DumBama too out raised his two Republican opponents. Do the homeless have that kind of money to spend? And don't say small donors as over 2/3 of Americans surveyed state they are living paycheck to paycheck.

 

[Frankeneinstein]

There are fundamental differences between capitalism and CAPITALISM. It's not merely the difference in income or profit, it's also a major difference in how that capital is earned or TAKEN and what is done with either the profit and/or PROFIT. The term capitalism may be rightfully assigned the terms earned and profit while the CORPORATIONS are called CAPITALISM TAKING. The former describes hard working, innovative, beneficial cadres of hard working people who are only seeking an honest and earned profit. The CORPORATIONS on the other hand are huge conglomerates of THIEVES, EXTORTIONISTS and BRIBERS who hold no compunctions when it comes to the CRIMINALITY required to BRIBE CONGRESS and other government officials to allow them immunity from common decency and honest business practices. There are vast differences between banks and BANKS, between ma and pa stores and CHAINS, and owners and EXECUTIVE MANAGEMENT.

In these columns it is easy to tell capitalists from CAPITALISTS by their stated stances, by their caring or lack of caring for honesty and fair practices and whether their stances appreciate those who actually support them or are only interested in MO MONEY, MO MONEY, MO MONEY no matter how it is attained or who they have to harm to get it. Even going so far as to equate CAPITALISM as a means of government is a foul indicator of the differences between capitalism and CAPITALISM and demonstrates the fascist to nazi attitude of CORPORATIONS. There is no mind changing while executive management teams wander the halls of GREED innate in CORPORATIONS.

The USA and the world are now at the cusp of that GREED and are increasingly unable to meet the prices of bare necessities such as environment, food, clothing and shelter. Those markets are rapidly shrinking for the TAKERS because the majority of the citizenry simply cannot afford to pay the GREEDY any more, any longer. There is a positive side to that condition, however. That is, those CORPORATIONS who CAUSED this outrageous inflation will ultimately become the victims of NO MONEY, NO MONEY, NO MONEY!

I'm not new to this, I despise a lot of things about capitalism [it really is brutal IMO] and I have heard your explanation many many times before, and while there is much truth to it [especially the last paragraph] I just can't help but wonder/ask why hasn't it/capitalism collapsed by now?
I've had everyone from teachers/professors to your everyday 1960's hippie give basically the same explanation/reason you just did and the only thing that has collapsed is communism....
I have been hearing about the evils of capitalism for over 60 years and its self proclaimed successor has been preached since the middle of 19th century.
...would you mind giving me an example of communism you feel has worked?

 

[justaschmuck9]

capitalists employ people who need money

 

[a1623yankee]

I'm not new to this, I despise a lot of things about capitalism [it really is brutal IMO] and I have heard your explanation many many times before, and while there is much truth to it [especially the last paragraph] I just can't help but wonder/ask why hasn't it/capitalism collapsed by now?
I've had everyone from teachers/professors to your everyday 1960's hippie give basically the same explanation/reason you just did and the only thing that has collapsed is communism....
I have been hearing about the evils of capitalism for over 60 years and its self proclaimed successor has been preached since the middle of 19th century.
...would you mind giving me an example of communism you feel has work differences between communism and capitalism as well as the differences between capitalism and CAPITALISM. As I understand it...

As I understand it...

Communism is a social structure that demands input of labor, goods and means, from any/all who are capable, to the lives and lifestyles of all who live and work in a shared society. The rewards of the collective input is ideally shared equally by those of means and those who are incapable of providing at the higher level of input in the community. None are allowed to be without the necessities of life unless the entire social structure is unable to provide for itself and when the society is wealthy as a whole, all share equally in the good times. All contribute to their ability and all receive according to their needs. Firm commitment to the system is essential and required for its success. The reality is that communism is not suited to modern national societies and simply does not work beyond the tribal level. Corruption, greed, class development and logistics get in the way. There has never been a true and successful communist state beyond the level of the tribe. Early native American tribes are prime examples of true communism. Communism is largely NOT a form of government on a large scale anywhere or ever.

The method of business known as capitalism is NOT a societal means of government. It is a means of building
wealth through the development of efficiencies of collecting and/or manufacturing goods and services and marketing the goods and services involved at a higher price than the original cost. The term that I use, "capitalism", is a self, fair and market controlled (using the supply and demand means of pricing) method of providing goods and services to an open market. In its earliest days in the USA, uncontrolled capitalism thrived but eventually became so corrupt through the machinations of the GREEDY with the efforts toward MONOPOLY that its corruption to CAPITALISM was too prevalent and strong and it attracted the attention of government. Capitalism ultimately became so egregious as to demand legislation to control it through Antitrust laws. One thing, clear over the decades since then, is that the corruption that changed capitalism to large CORPORATE CAPITALISM was not controlled and in fact, through bribery, extortion and 'lobbying' (the official name for criminal interference with our government and laws), the CORPORATIONS can claim and actually have more control of our federal, state, county and municipal governments than We The People do. There is even one national political group that arrogantly claims the title of, "The Party Of Business", NOT The Party Of, By And For The People.

There is another aspect of CORPORATE CAPITALISM that largely escapes the understanding of the people. That is, the management control structure and hierachy within all corporations is nearly identical to fascism at its most fundamental. With CORPORATE CAPITALIST influence over our governments, the CORPORATIONS have infused them with more and more and yet more fascist principles of control. For thoroughly accurate descriptions of fascism in government, please refer to World War II. Also, please remember that all fascist controlled states rose because of the populations' deep resentments of their own democratically elected republic governments that were spurred on by CORPORATE CAPITALISM and that those selfsame population's impoverishment were created by the manipulations of their own CORPORATE executive management teams. The USA has rapidly descended into the 1% owning more of this nation that the remaining middle class by successfully utilizing the cancerous CORPORATE CAPITALIST methods. Where do you think we're headed?

I see this fascist war of attrition and the rotting of our governments from within as an undeclared WAR against the USA, and more importantly, as a WORLD WAR! The full understanding and utilization of government weakness(es) and economic weaponry have been the tools of the elite to conquer us all while we battle each other with each other with daydreams, stupidity, ignorance and stubborn propaganda driven belief in utter nonsense. We The People are under attack every single day but we're too damned dumb to see it!

 

[a1623yankee]

capitalists employ people who need money

When you say capitalists, I agree.

However, if what you mean is CAPITALISTS who hold more money, more commodities along with unequaled amount of POWER and RULE and 1% of whom hoard more wealth than ALL of America's middle class wealth combined, then your statement is patently untrue, false, misstated or an outright LIE. These "things" only USE people.

Let us hope that the former is true.

 

[dblack]

How can people who work with their way through life get the same breaks as those who own their way through life? No one wants to take shit away… they want a fair shake.

The market isn't a means of providing someone with a "fair shake". It's there to steer money and resources to those who will use it in ways that society values. We give Elon Musk (or Steve Jobs, or Jeff Bezos), for example, our money because we like what he does with that money.

In any case, I've never had any luck convincing someone of the value of freedom who didn't already have it in them. I do find it ironic, however, that one of the most common complaints is that, under a free market, wealth is concentrated in relatively few hands. They want to replace the corporations and wealthy investors who steer our economy with the government. That's right, their answer to the "problem" of a few corporations having too much power is to give ALL that power to government (a single corporation) instead. Because democracy.

 

[Frankeneinstein]

As I understand it...

Communism is a social structure that demands input of labor, goods and means, from any/all who are capable, to the lives and lifestyles of all who live and work in a shared society. The rewards of the collective input is ideally shared equally by those of means and those who are incapable of providing at the higher level of input in the community. None are allowed to be without the necessities of life unless the entire social structure is unable to provide for itself and when the society is wealthy as a whole, all share equally in the good times. All contribute to their ability and all receive according to their needs. Firm commitment to the system is essential and required for its success. The reality is that communism is not suited to modern national societies and simply does not work beyond the tribal level. Corruption, greed, class development and logistics get in the way. There has never been a true and successful communist state beyond the level of the tribe. Early native American tribes are prime examples of true communism. Communism is largely NOT a form of government on a large scale anywhere or ever.

The method of business known as capitalism is NOT a societal means of government. It is a means of building
wealth through the development of efficiencies of collecting and/or manufacturing goods and services and marketing the goods and services involved at a higher price than the original cost. The term that I use, "capitalism", is a self, fair and market controlled (using the supply and demand means of pricing) method of providing goods and services to an open market. In its earliest days in the USA, uncontrolled capitalism thrived but eventually became so corrupt through the machinations of the GREEDY with the efforts toward MONOPOLY that its corruption to CAPITALISM was too prevalent and strong and it attracted the attention of government. Capitalism ultimately became so egregious as to demand legislation to control it through Antitrust laws. One thing, clear over the decades since then, is that the corruption that changed capitalism to large CORPORATE CAPITALISM was not controlled and in fact, through bribery, extortion and 'lobbying' (the official name for criminal interference with our government and laws), the CORPORATIONS can claim and actually have more control of our federal, state, county and municipal governments than We The People do. There is even one national political group that arrogantly claims the title of, "The Party Of Business", NOT The Party Of, By And For The People.

There is another aspect of CORPORATE CAPITALISM that largely escapes the understanding of the people. That is, the management control structure and hierachy within all corporations is nearly identical to fascism at its most fundamental. With CORPORATE CAPITALIST influence over our governments, the CORPORATIONS have infused them with more and more and yet more fascist principles of control. For thoroughly accurate descriptions of fascism in government, please refer to World War II. Also, please remember that all fascist controlled states rose because of the populations' deep resentments of their own democratically elected republic governments that were spurred on by CORPORATE CAPITALISM and that those selfsame population's impoverishment were created by the manipulations of their own CORPORATE executive management teams. The USA has rapidly descended into the 1% owning more of this nation that the remaining middle class by successfully utilizing the cancerous CORPORATE CAPITALIST methods. Where do you think we're headed?

I see this fascist war of attrition and the rotting of our governments from within as an undeclared WAR against the USA, and more importantly, as a WORLD WAR! The full understanding and utilization of government weakness(es) and economic weaponry have been the tools of the elite to conquer us all while we battle each other with each other with daydreams, stupidity, ignorance and stubborn propaganda driven belief in utter nonsense. We The People are under attack every single day but we're too damned dumb to see it!

You seem to be polite enough and concerned enough with real issues, and you engage in conversation not only academically but civilly as well so it makes it is easy to see that it is natural...I don't have time to go into all that text but I will try to get to it later, but that is part of the problem...
... "communism" has as its history a long winded ideology when it comes to explaining itself [and its history] its as though advocates for communism just can't hold up its accomplishments [in terms of a country and government] for the/a lack of them and fear an audience would see right through them!...
...not trying to come accross as rude, but without all the text I really want to know what country you could point to as proof it works better than what we have.

 

[a1623yankee]

You seem to be polite enough and concerned enough with real issues, and you engage in conversation not only academically but civilly as well so it makes it is easy to see that it is natural...I don't have time to go into all that text but I will try to get to it later, but that is part of the problem...
... "communism" has as its history a long winded ideology when it comes to explaining itself [and its history] its as though advocates for communism just can't hold up its accomplishments [in terms of a country and government] for the/a lack of them and fear an audience would see right through them!...
...not trying to come accross as rude, but without all the text I really want to know what country you could point to as proof it works better than what we have.

My point is that other than in tribal units, communism does NOT, nor has it ever existed. Communism may be part of a self identification but altogether too often (as in always) it instantly turns into a quasi fascist state with a single tyrant or a group of tyrants as massas with little to no caring for or about their constituency. Even so-called democratic republics fall prey to the alternative governance by fascist cliques. The USA is one of those. Communism should not be a worry in anybody's bag. Fascism, and most importantly CORPORATE CAPITALIST fascism most certainly should!

 

[Grumblenuts]

Capitalism vs. Communism - Patently false dichotomy, predictably forwarded to completely distract the topic by repetitious dullards. The OP was all about how one might try to level the playing field to make the results of our highly capitalistic system more equitable. Focus!, idiots.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Capitalism vs. Communism - Patently false dichotomy, predictably forwarded to completely distract the topic by repetitious dullards. The OP was all about how one might try to level the playing field to make the results of our highly capitalistic system more equitable. Focus!, idiots.

Capitalism is a reward system where those that try the hardest usually get the greater rewards. If you're going to sit back and complain your car wash job doesn't pay a living wage, your rewards will be minimal. Invest in learning a trade, skill or open up a business, your rewards will be higher. Avoid buying things you really don't have to have to make your cash grow, your rewards will be the best.

Capitalism was never meant to be equal.

"If we all move ahead the same distance at the same time, then nobody gets ahead."
Brian Kilmeade

 

[Woodznutz]

I’m an executive leader of a large analytical organization. It pays well but it’s a grind. I’ve never met anyone whose happiness was tied to their compensation though. You?

I would be richer if I didn't enjoy myself so much.

 

[Woodznutz]

"If we all move ahead the same distance at the same time, then nobody gets ahead."
Brian Kilmeade

The important thing is that we get ahead of the wolf at the door, not each other.

 

[dudmuck]

Capitalism is a reward system where those that try the hardest usually get the greater rewards. If you're going to sit back and complain your car wash job doesn't pay a living wage, your rewards will be minimal. Invest in learning a trade, skill or open up a business, your rewards will be higher. Avoid buying things you really don't have to have to make your cash grow, your rewards will be the best.

Capitalism was never meant to be equal.

"If we all move ahead the same distance at the same time, then nobody gets ahead."
Brian Kilmeade

youre saying the only way to make a living wage is to become an employer.
The employee - employer relationship is what defines capitalism. All the power is with the employer. Just like slavery has the owner - slave relationship, and feudalism has the lord - serf relationship, capitalism has the employer - employee relationship.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

youre saying the only way to make a living wage is to become an employer.
The employee - employer relationship is what defines capitalism. All the power is with the employer. Just like slavery has the owner - slave relationship, and feudalism has the lord - serf relationship, capitalism has the employer - employee relationship.

If you are a person that believes that BS, then yes, your only way to happiness is work for yourself. And where did I say the only way to make a living wage is be self-employed?

There are plenty of good paying jobs that are vacant and have been for a long time. They can't find the people willing to make any sacrifice to work those jobs. For instance my father is a retired bricklayer. His former union is offering their retirees $500.00 to find young people to join the trade. If you can pass a drug test (another subject altogether) the union will pay for your schooling, guarantee you a job while learning, and the pay with benefits is around $60.00 an hour. Plenty of overtime if desired and you get laid off all winter and collect unemployment.

Yes it's tough work, but my father did very well for himself in that trade. And yes, once a journeyman, you can work for yourself if you so desire.

In my former line of work they are short over 60,000 drivers. It's predicted to get worse in the near future with us baby boomers retiring. You can make a damn good living driving a truck. You can go over the road and see the country while getting paid, or take a local job and be home every night. Once you have one year experience, your future is in your hands.

Walmart truck drivers paid at least $95,000 after wage increase

Walmart workers who once unloaded trucks now have a chance to drive them.

fox8.com

 

[Rigby5]

Does this number count Mutual Funds or corporations as individuals? Cause I've seen that used as a way to mislead the issue, while that wealth is actually held by a lot of middle class people, such as myself.

Wrong.
Mutual Funds do not at all represent wealth.
You do not get to own a share of the company.
You just own a piece of paper, which is only valuable if some other idiot is foolish enough to want to pay for it.

 

[Rigby5]

Facts are facts. 2 million illegals a year with nothing but the shirts on their backs flock to America for a better life. Which proves your OP is bullshit.

Wrong.
People come to the US because the US has turned all their counties into military dictatorships that pay slave wages.

 

[Rigby5]

I'm not new to this, I despise a lot of things about capitalism [it really is brutal IMO] and I have heard your explanation many many times before, and while there is much truth to it [especially the last paragraph] I just can't help but wonder/ask why hasn't it/capitalism collapsed by now?
I've had everyone from teachers/professors to your everyday 1960's hippie give basically the same explanation/reason you just did and the only thing that has collapsed is communism....
I have been hearing about the evils of capitalism for over 60 years and its self proclaimed successor has been preached since the middle of 19th century.
...would you mind giving me an example of communism you feel has worked?

Capitalism is very powerful because it concentrates wealth.
And without wealth, no one can do anything.
And no, communism never "collapsed".
The USSR was centralized and profit motivated, by a wealthy elite.
That is the exact definition of capitalism, not communism.

 

[Frankeneinstein]

Capitalism is very powerful because it concentrates wealth.
And without wealth, no one can do anything.
And no, communism never "collapsed".
The USSR was centralized and profit motivated, by a wealthy elite.
That is the exact definition of capitalism, not communism.

This is what happens when the left controls the language, words lose all meaning and synonyms and antonyms take on each others identity...
witness:
...communist USSR didn't collapse, but the capitalist one did, and no one can tell me which communist society was the most successful [or if one even existed at all] or even what a woman is.

this would lead one to draw the 'logical' conclusion [a capitalist must, and probably chief among the reasons that allowed the west to amass its wealth] that "Capitalism" is "so poweful" for more reasons than just its wealth, i'm certain capitalisms emphasis on academic education is the reason it has trounced those with social educations.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

We are in a current situation where the workers at the bottom cannot get a raise of share in the economy without those in power taking it back from them.

• The rising wages at the bottom are seen as an evil trend destabilizing the economy
• Company profit margins being higher than ever (basically rising wages at the top) is seen as economically healthy and good
• Companies have raised prices to protect profit margins to historical highs during supply issues taking advantage of shortages in the marketplace is seen as good
• The Uber wealthy continue to accumulate wealth in tough pandemic times and good times (pre and post pandemic) and no one cares
• The answer from those in power will be to raise interest rates, slow the economy to create unemployment hurting the bottom, again
• Tax rates on workers and capital continue to favor capital owners
• Unrealized wealth is only accumulated by the top - hell wealth is only accumulated at the top where top 10% own 89% of the wealth
• CEOs are making a historical multiplier over their workers salary, north of 270X’s

***Mod Comment - Need to provide links to back up statements made as facts. That's in the forum rules.***

I owe my livelihood to capitalism and make top 1% money but it is the systemic exploitation of the bottom through very powerful controls of capital at the top. There needs to be a more balanced playing field.

How can people who work with their way through life get the same breaks as those who own their way through life? No one wants to take shit away… they want a fair shake.

View attachment 656573

You can't change the mind of a cultist in a few brief words on a discussion board. So I come here to laugh at your ignorant ass.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Capitalism is very powerful because it concentrates wealth.
And without wealth, no one can do anything.
And no, communism never "collapsed".
The USSR was centralized and profit motivated, by a wealthy elite.
That is the exact definition of capitalism, not communism.

13 million millionaires in America. How many millionaires would a communist country have?