The Need For Universal Welfare? Could Be.

[daveman]

I think the difference between people is their willingness to assume risk. If you are brave enough to start your own business or uproot yourself and family to move to another country with more opportunity, you have a chance to prosper. It doesn't require exploiting others and is something to be encouraged. It is one reason I've always felt that immigrants, legal or illegal, make the best Americans.

Immigrants who come here illegally just to soak up taxpayer-funded benefits without offering anything in return are a net drain and make awful Americans and need to be sent home.

 

[alang1216]

Immigrants who come here illegally just to soak up taxpayer-funded benefits without offering anything in return are a net drain and make awful Americans and need to be sent home.

Agreed but I'd wager the vast majority come to work and don't expect any handouts.

 

[daveman]

Agreed but I'd wager the vast majority come to work and don't expect any handouts.

Sure didn't stop them from taking billions in "free" money, did it?

 

[alang1216]

Sure didn't stop them from taking billions in "free" money, did it?

Did they, I wasn't aware of that? Got a link?

Don't forget illegals paid SS (and many other taxes) but will never see a dime of it. They probably paid more than Trump did as a percent of their income.

 

[PoliticalChic]

The crux of the OP is that AI and robotics might very well mean the end of the need for workers, and the sort of world where the populace becomes not much more than a herd of cattle with government as the German Sheperd, keeping them in order.


We saw that during the Covid Hoax, where government imposted industry and person shut down, and printed tons of $ to keep folks in food and drink, emphasis on the drink.


Many grew accustomed to iet, and really lliked it......but there is a psychological aspect that, I believe, would make itself known in the long run: therer is no true happiness in that sort of national senior care existence.


That sort of existence quashes human drive, creativity and ambition, and is only suitable for those with single digit IQ"s.
It results in a society of "zeks."
(You should look up 'zeks,' The meaning is pertinent in this discussion.)


“Earned success is the secret to meaningful happiness. The government can improve your net worth with a check, but it cannot improve your self-worth.”
Jonah Goldberg

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

Covid Hoax is an idiot's belief.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

Long before there is UBI, there will be mass depopulation. Why support them if you don't need them?

 

[PoliticalChic]

This, from The Socialist Party:

"In Marxist terms, the fight for our future is not dystopia or utopia, but one of capitalism or socialism.

The real ‘third revolution’ will be the socialist one which, linked to the internet of things can connect everything with everyone in an integrated planned global network.

People, machines, natural resources, production lines, logistic networks, consumption habits, recycling flows, and virtually every other aspect of economic and social life will be linked via sensors and software.

This is the outline for a socialist world, in which humankind will be transformed. Engels once said “the invading revolution” is before us."

The growth of artificial intelligence technology - Socialist Party

AI technologies cannot be harmoniously rolled out due to the contradictions of capitalism

www.socialistparty.org.uk

"...machine-mandated collectivism...:
Cheryl Chumley


Still voting Democrat?

 

[daveman]

Did they, I wasn't aware of that? Got a link?

Don't forget illegals paid SS (and many other taxes) but will never see a dime of it. They probably paid more than Trump did as a percent of their income.

Here's a link.
Conclusion

Illegal immigrants are a significant net fiscal drain -- paying less in taxes than they use in public
services. The primary reason they create more in costs than they pay in taxes is their relative low
levels of education. Based on prior research, 69 percent of adult illegal immigrants have no
education beyond high school, compared to 35 percent of the U.S.-born. As a result, they tend to
earn modest wages and make modest tax contributions even when income and payroll taxes are
taken out of their pay. This fact, coupled with the relatively heavy demands they make on public
coffers -- especially for education, health care, and means-tested programs -- is the reason they
are a net fiscal drain.

We estimate that 59 percent of illegal immigrant households use one or more major welfare
programs, costing roughly $42 billion a year. At the local level, the largest single cost is for
public education. We estimate the cost of educating the children of illegal immigrants, most of
whom are U.S.-born, totals $69 billion per year. While illegal immigrants often receive other
services for their U.S.-born children, even when we estimate the net fiscal impact of just the
illegal immigrants themselves, excluding their U.S.-born children, we still find they create a
lifetime net fiscal drain of $68,000 on average (taxes paid minus benefits received).

 

[alang1216]

This, from The Socialist Party:

"In Marxist terms, the fight for our future is not dystopia or utopia, but one of capitalism or socialism.

The real ‘third revolution’ will be the socialist one which, linked to the internet of things can connect everything with everyone in an integrated planned global network.

People, machines, natural resources, production lines, logistic networks, consumption habits, recycling flows, and virtually every other aspect of economic and social life will be linked via sensors and software.

This is the outline for a socialist world, in which humankind will be transformed. Engels once said “the invading revolution” is before us."

The growth of artificial intelligence technology - Socialist Party

AI technologies cannot be harmoniously rolled out due to the contradictions of capitalism

www.socialistparty.org.uk

"...machine-mandated collectivism...:
Cheryl Chumley


Still voting Democrat?

Ahhh, ideological purity. Silly stuff. It is not "capitalism or socialism", it is always capitalism, socialism, AND communism. Every economy is a mix of all three, even ours, since each is best at different parts of an economy.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Did they, I wasn't aware of that? Got a link?

Don't forget illegals paid SS (and many other taxes) but will never see a dime of it. They probably paid more than Trump did as a percent of their income.

Amazing how much you are full of........Democrat propaganda.



“In all, nearly 60 percent of immigrants—legal and illegal—are on government assistance, compared with 39 percent of native households. Why would any country voluntarily bring in people who have to be supported by the taxpayer?”
― Ann Coulter, ¡Adios, America!: The Left's Plan to Turn Our Country into a Third World Hellhole



“The conservative Heritage Foundation estimated unlawful immigrant households paid $39.2 billion in 2010, but received $93.7 billion in government services.” -- Oliver Darcy
Of course it is far greater today.

It is re-distribution of wealth from earners to Democrat voters.



“The Federation for American Immigration Reform Monday put the five-year price tag at $8.8 billion in federal and state costs, or nearly $80,000 per refugee. There are some 18 federal and state programs refugees can tap for financial help, including food stamps, child care, public housing and school loans.

On a yearly average, it is $1.8 billion, or $15,900 per refugee. Included in that are enormous refugee resettlement costs such as $867 million in welfare, housing assistance and education.

… 50 percent of refugees remain on Medicaid for five years.

The Fiscal Cost of Resettling Refugees in the United States

• The cost per refugee to American taxpayers just under $79,600 every year in the first five years after a refugee is resettled in the U.S.
• In 2016, the State Department spent nearly $545 million to process and resettle refugees, including $140,389,177 on transportation costs.
• Of the $1.8 billion in resettlement costs, $867 billion was spent on welfare alone.
• In their first five years, approximately 54 percent of all refugees will hold jobs that pay less than $11 an hour.
• $71 million will be spent to educate refugees and asylum-seekers, a majority of which will be paid by state and local governments.
• Over five years, an estimated 15.7 percent of all refugees will need housing assistance, which is roughly $7,600 per household in 2014 dollars.

Refugee costs: $8.8 billion, $80,000 per immigrant, free welfare, Medicaid - Washington Examiner

Last edited: Jun 20, 2024
Jun 20, 2024

 

[PoliticalChic]

Long before there is UBI, there will be mass depopulation. Why support them if you don't need them?

Because they are expected to vote Democrat???

 

[PoliticalChic]

Ahhh, ideological purity. Silly stuff. It is not "capitalism or socialism", it is always capitalism, socialism, AND communism. Every economy is a mix of all three, even ours, since each is best at different parts of an economy.

But you vote for the socialists.

Aren't you proud ot that?

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

Amazing how much you are full of........Democrat propaganda.



“In all, nearly 60 percent of immigrants—legal and illegal—are on government assistance, compared with 39 percent of native households. Why would any country voluntarily bring in people who have to be supported by the taxpayer?”
― Ann Coulter, ¡Adios, America!: The Left's Plan to Turn Our Country into a Third World Hellhole



“The conservative Heritage Foundation estimated unlawful immigrant households paid $39.2 billion in 2010, but received $93.7 billion in government services.” -- Oliver Darcy
Of course it is far greater today.

It is re-distribution of wealth from earners to Democrat voters.



“The Federation for American Immigration Reform Monday put the five-year price tag at $8.8 billion in federal and state costs, or nearly $80,000 per refugee. There are some 18 federal and state programs refugees can tap for financial help, including food stamps, child care, public housing and school loans.

On a yearly average, it is $1.8 billion, or $15,900 per refugee. Included in that are enormous refugee resettlement costs such as $867 million in welfare, housing assistance and education.

… 50 percent of refugees remain on Medicaid for five years.

The Fiscal Cost of Resettling Refugees in the United States

• The cost per refugee to American taxpayers just under $79,600 every year in the first five years after a refugee is resettled in the U.S.
• In 2016, the State Department spent nearly $545 million to process and resettle refugees, including $140,389,177 on transportation costs.
• Of the $1.8 billion in resettlement costs, $867 billion was spent on welfare alone.
• In their first five years, approximately 54 percent of all refugees will hold jobs that pay less than $11 an hour.
• $71 million will be spent to educate refugees and asylum-seekers, a majority of which will be paid by state and local governments.
• Over five years, an estimated 15.7 percent of all refugees will need housing assistance, which is roughly $7,600 per household in 2014 dollars.

Refugee costs: $8.8 billion, $80,000 per immigrant, free welfare, Medicaid - Washington Examiner

Last edited: Jun 20, 2024
Jun 20, 2024

How about some middle of the road sources.

 

[PoliticalChic]

How about some middle of the road sources.

Why?

You just lie, even when the lies are exposed,


Like this:

John Edgar Slow Horses said:

“Yes, fools accept that. The truth is many were injured by McCarthy's lies and smears.”

Watch me smash yet another custard pie in this fools kisser:

"...many were injured by McCarthy's lies and smears."

Name them…..any of them…..or allow readers to see how indoctrinated you are.

How To Tell If You Have Been Indoctrinated post #138

 

[PoliticalChic]

I have to admit that AI is a genie that cannot be put back in the bottle...

....and if predictions come to pass, there will be world wide unemployment.

With as foreshadowed in the OP, global socialism/communism.



Could that ideology be forced on the world by technology?

It has never worked in any nation where it has been tried:


The Democrat Party is the most recent iteration of the Nazis and the Bolsheviks. All three are socialist/communist/Marxist.
One can only wonder at the any with even a modicum of knowledge of history, voting for policies that have proven failure whenever tried.


In September of 1991, the President of Russia, Boris Yeltsin, was asked about the history and future of Communism:

“One of their more dramatic responses came to a question by Los Angeles actor Ben Stein, who asked whether the two leaders believed any country should live under communism.

Yeltsin answered first: "This experiment which was conducted on our soil was a tragedy for our people and it was too bad that it happened on our territory. It would have been better if the experiment had happened in some small country, to make it clear that it was a Utopian idea, although a beautiful idea."

Gorbachev said history has shown that "that model has failed which was brought about in our country. And I believe that this is a lesson not only for our people but for all peoples.”
https://www.deseretnews.com/article/181738/GORBACHEV-YELTSIN-SAY-COMMUNISM-FAILED-USSR.html

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

I bet P C is using Peter Navarro's big source guy, Ron Vara.

 

[ThunderKiss1965]

AI and Robotics will make lives much easier.

And it will lead to a very doable UBI.

Whether that will have the outcome that would be good is altogether another matter.

Giving that much power over your well being to the government is beyond stupid.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

Giving that much power over your well being to the government is beyond stupid.

You have no constitution right to a job.

If you don't have a job, then what does one do as an alternative?

 

[alang1216]

Here's a link.
Conclusion

Illegal immigrants are a significant net fiscal drain -- paying less in taxes than they use in public
services. The primary reason they create more in costs than they pay in taxes is their relative low
levels of education. Based on prior research, 69 percent of adult illegal immigrants have no
education beyond high school, compared to 35 percent of the U.S.-born. As a result, they tend to
earn modest wages and make modest tax contributions even when income and payroll taxes are
taken out of their pay. This fact, coupled with the relatively heavy demands they make on public
coffers -- especially for education, health care, and means-tested programs -- is the reason they
are a net fiscal drain.

We estimate that 59 percent of illegal immigrant households use one or more major welfare
programs, costing roughly $42 billion a year. At the local level, the largest single cost is for
public education. We estimate the cost of educating the children of illegal immigrants, most of
whom are U.S.-born, totals $69 billion per year. While illegal immigrants often receive other
services for their U.S.-born children, even when we estimate the net fiscal impact of just the
illegal immigrants themselves, excluding their U.S.-born children, we still find they create a
lifetime net fiscal drain of $68,000 on average (taxes paid minus benefits received).

Citing the testimony of a anti-immigration advocate is hardly conclusive. Other sources say different:

Immigrants contribute significantly to the U.S. economy, generating trillions in economic activity, paying billions in taxes, and driving innovation and business creation, while also easing labor shortages in key sectors.

Here's a more detailed breakdown:

Economic Activity and GDP:

• Economic Activity: Immigrants generated roughly $1.6 trillion in economic activity in 2022.
  
  
• GDP Contribution: Some studies estimate that immigrants contribute a substantial portion of the U.S. GDP, with one study finding that immigrants account for 17% of U.S. GDP, amounting to $3.3 trillion.
  
  
• Spending Power: Immigrants wield significant spending power, with one analysis finding that immigrants (14% of the U.S. population) wield $1.3 trillion in spending power.
  
  
• Immigrants added $2 trillion to the U.S. GDP in 2016 and $458.7 billion to state, local, and federal taxes in 2018 .
  
  
• In 2023, undocumented immigrant households paid $89.8 billion in federal, state, and local taxes and held $299 billion in spending power .
  

Tax Contributions:

• Total Tax Payments:
  Immigrant households paid nearly $1 in every $6 in tax dollars collected by governments in 2022.
  
  
• Federal Tax Payments:
  Immigrants paid $382.9 billion in federal taxes and $196.3 billion in state and local taxes in 2022.
  
  
• Social Security and Medicare:
  Immigrants contribute significantly to Social Security and Medicare, with immigrant households paying $194.5 billion to Social Security and $53.6 billion to Medicare in 2022.
  
  
• In 2022, undocumented immigrant households paid $46.8 billion in federal taxes and $29.3 billion in state and local taxes