Can someone please explain

[jillian]

How the teaching of a language can be mistaken for teaching religion?

And why does the teaching of Hebrew raise issues while no one questions that Latin should be taught (despite its use in Catholic services) and despite the fact there is an entire public school in NY dedicated to Arab culture?

FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. - A charter school may resume teaching in Hebrew, three weeks after the lessons were halted over concerns the Jewish faith was seeping into public classrooms, the school board voted Tuesday.

Broward County board members said close monitoring of the country's first Hebrew-language charter school is still necessary, but that its administrators had cleared up major concerns.

The school district will work with the Ben Gamla Charter School in Hollywood to create training programs for teachers and board members to ensure the separation of church and state, Schools Superintendent James Notter. Lesson plans will be submitted monthly for district review.

"We have asked this charter school to do a lot of different things," said board chair Beverly Gallagher. "As far as I can see, they have done everything that we have asked them."

The school can teach about the Jewish faith, but cannot advocate it. Hebrew instruction is to resume Monday.

MORE

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070911/ap_on_re_us/hebrew_charter_school

 

[Ninja]

"Concerns the Jewish faith was seeping into public classrooms" is Joycian for "the children weren't reading enough about Matthew Hale and being indoctrinated into the WCOTC."

What a joke.

 

[Alucard]

Because we cater to individuals in this country instead of doing whats best for society...

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Jillian you should be aware that the democrats in New York have no problem making special arrangements for the Muslim religion. So that is a non starter, though valid.

Until 2001 the New York City school districts allowed special accomadations for Ramadan every year for at least 3 maybe more. They were forced to stop when Christian groups demanded similar accomadations and the school system was told to provide them. Rather than do that they stopped providing special favor for the Muslims.

Personally since in my opinion when one in this country talks about "Arab" culture it is code for Muslim, you are absolutely right.

 

[Diuretic]

How the teaching of a language can be mistaken for teaching religion?

Is the school teaching a language or teaching IN a language? Or is it both?

Either way it doesn't matter. I mean if someone wants to study mathematics using Hebrew, fine with me. From that I would assume that the objective, or at least one of the objectives, is to keep the language alive among Jewish students so that they can better participate and understand their faith and they can, if they wish, claim their citizenship rights in Israel (where they would need Hebrew to function).

And why does the teaching of Hebrew raise issues while no one questions that Latin should be taught (despite its use in Catholic services) and despite the fact there is an entire public school in NY dedicated to Arab culture?

If the current Pope hadn't brought up the Tridentine Rite that observation may not have had the power it does. It was in Vatican II I think that the decision was made to allow the Mass to be held in indigenous languages rather than Latin. But Latin has historically been taught in the West as the language of philosophy and science (well, up until now I mean). I think it was Churchill who once said that he learned Latin at school as a fundamental but Greek was a treat, something like that anyway.

As for the Arab culture - Arabs are Muslim, Christian, atheist etc. It's a culture being taught, probably for the same reasons as Hebrew was being used in the school in question, it's about cultural transmission and maintenance rather than religion. The biggest Muslim nation in the world isn't Arabian in culture.

 

[jillian]

"Concerns the Jewish faith was seeping into public classrooms" is Joycian for "the children weren't reading enough about Matthew Hale and being indoctrinated into the WCOTC."

What a joke.

Kind of my feeling on the subject. Interestingly, the Khalil Gibran School has kept its curriculum secret and will not publicize who is teaching there...

 

[jillian]

Jillian you should be aware that the democrats in New York have no problem making special arrangements for the Muslim religion. So that is a non starter, though valid.

Until 2001 the New York City school districts allowed special accomadations for Ramadan every year for at least 3 maybe more. They were forced to stop when Christian groups demanded similar accomadations and the school system was told to provide them. Rather than do that they stopped providing special favor for the Muslims.

Personally since in my opinion when one in this country talks about "Arab" culture it is code for Muslim, you are absolutely right.

First, I'm a NY Dem, as are most of the Jews in NY, so I don't think it has anything to do with Dems making special arrangeents for muslims. I'd also remind you that our mayor and his schools chancellor are republicans and it's they who set school policy, along with their district appointees.

I don't have a problem with special accommodation for religious holidays as long as the religions aren't taught in the school. In NY, which is approximately 69% Catholic, every Wednesday, children whose parents wish, are taken out of school early and brought to religious instruction at the local Diocese. That accomodation isn't made for any other religious group. For example, my son doesn't have that same option. When he goes for religious instruction, it's privately done through our Temple and after school hours. Now, I don't mind particularly, I'm just pointing out that it's not simply a muslim issue.

I am, however a bit piqued that a school is receiving extra scrutiny for the simple reason that it is teaching a language which also happens to be used in Jewish religious services.

 

[CSM]

Kind of my feeling on the subject. Interestingly, the Khalil Gibran School has kept its curriculum secret and will not publicize who is teaching there...

I just have to ask if this school is a public or a private one....just curious.

 

[Diuretic]

No big deal here.

We have secular state schools, private schools and some of those private schools are run by religious orders. I know we have Catholic schools, Uniting Church (Methodist) schools, Anglican schools, Greek Orthodox schools, a Muslim school, Jewish schools (a friend of mine, a Gentile, sent two of his kids to Masada College here because their principal back then was running a really good programme for gifted children - the holidays used to throw my friend though ). No fuss, no drama, but then we don't have embedded in our constitution the idea of rejection of any religion as a state religion.

 

[jillian]

Is the school teaching a language or teaching IN a language? Or is it both?

Either way it doesn't matter. I mean if someone wants to study mathematics using Hebrew, fine with me. From that I would assume that the objective, or at least one of the objectives, is to keep the language alive among Jewish students so that they can better participate and understand their faith and they can, if they wish, claim their citizenship rights in Israel (where they would need Hebrew to function).





If the current Pope hadn't brought up the Tridentine Rite that observation may not have had the power it does. It was in Vatican II I think that the decision was made to allow the Mass to be held in indigenous languages rather than Latin. But Latin has historically been taught in the West as the language of philosophy and science (well, up until now I mean). I think it was Churchill who once said that he learned Latin at school as a fundamental but Greek was a treat, something like that anyway.

As for the Arab culture - Arabs are Muslim, Christian, atheist etc. It's a culture being taught, probably for the same reasons as Hebrew was being used in the school in question, it's about cultural transmission and maintenance rather than religion. The biggest Muslim nation in the world isn't Arabian in culture.

They are teaching the language and doing immersion so that certain classes are taught in Hebrew according to the article.

The objective, I would guess, is to teach Hebrew and keep it a viable language, along with making some people outside of Israel fluent, same as any other immersion program.

Any Jew who is going to make alliyah (emigrate to Israel) probably doesn't need a public school to teach the language since it's most likely they've already been educated in it. Plus, Israel is largely bi-lingual, so no one needs the language to claim citizenship rights.

I agree with you about Latin, I was just bringing it up as an example of a language that serves multiple purposes, one of which happens to be religious in nature.

The thing about the Khalil Gibran School is that we don't know what the curriculum is. No one is scrutinizing it or checking to make sure that the school isn't being used as a local version of a madrassa. No one is allowed to check who the teachers are and where they come from. In fact, the original principal had to resign because she wouldn't disown a banner saying "Intifada" as being reprsentative of the school. Her claim was that it was in reference to girls "shaking off" (which is what intifada means literally) of oppression. We know, though, what Intifada referenced and I don't think a public school should be used to incite hatred.

 

[jillian]

I just have to ask if this school is a public or a private one....just curious.

Public.. .I figure a private school could teach pretty much what it wants to on a religious level.

http://www.economist.com/world/na/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9767809

 

[jillian]

No big deal here.

We have secular state schools, private schools and some of those private schools are run by religious orders. I know we have Catholic schools, Uniting Church (Methodist) schools, Anglican schools, Greek Orthodox schools, a Muslim school, Jewish schools (a friend of mine, a Gentile, sent two of his kids to Masada College here because their principal back then was running a really good programme for gifted children - the holidays used to throw my friend though ). No fuss, no drama, but then we don't have embedded in our constitution the idea of rejection of any religion as a state religion.

I have no problem with any of the above because, as you pointed out that such schools exist for many groups, not a single one. My main issue is with the extra scrutiny being given the school that teaches Hebrew and the total lack of scrutiny of the school teaching Arab culture.

lol re the holidays, well.. at least Easter and Passover are at approximately the same time!! Bet your friends came home wanting gifts for every night of Christmas, too!! ;o)

 

[Diuretic]

They are teaching the language and doing immersion so that certain classes are taught in Hebrew according to the article.

The objective, I would guess, is to teach Hebrew and keep it a viable language, along with making some people outside of Israel fluent, same as any other immersion program.

Any Jew who is going to make alliyah (emigrate to Israel) probably doesn't need a public school to teach the language since it's most likely they've already been educated in it. Plus, Israel is largely bi-lingual, so no one needs the language to claim citizenship rights.

I agree with you about Latin, I was just bringing it up as an example of a language that serves multiple purposes, one of which happens to be religious in nature.

The thing about the Khalil Gibran School is that we don't know what the curriculum is. No one is scrutinizing it or checking to make sure that the school isn't being used as a local version of a madrassa. No one is allowed to check who the teachers are and where they come from. In fact, the original principal had to resign because she wouldn't disown a banner saying "Intifada" as being reprsentative of the school. Her claim was that it was in reference to girls "shaking off" (which is what intifada means literally) of oppression. We know, though, what Intifada referenced and I don't think a public school should be used to incite hatred.

If no-one's checking on the Khalil Griban School then how come it can trade?

 

[Diuretic]

I have no problem with any of the above because, as you pointed out that such schools exist for many groups, not a single one. My main issue is with the extra scrutiny being given the school that teaches Hebrew and the total lack of scrutiny of the school teaching Arab culture.

lol re the holidays, well.. at least Easter and Passover are at approximately the same time!! Bet your friends came home wanting gifts for every night of Christmas, too!! ;o)

His wife is Orthodox Christian (Ukraina), he's a reformed Trotskyist (I know, I know, I have weird friends, but they would say the same ). The kids thought it was great - all those holidays. The good thing is they were taught - not in an indocrinating fashion - about the holidays and their meaning. The kids were very mature, very broad-minded (in the best sense) and relaxed about the multicultural nature of our society. It was funny though, my friend (and colleague) used to come and see me (I was his nominal boss then - we worked for the union) and ask for time off to pick the kids up early at the end of the week due to Shabbat (my ex is non-observant but I knew what he was talking about from a cultural point of view) and I knew he wasn't Jewish. It made for interesting discussions.

 

[jillian]

His wife is Orthodox Christian (Ukraina), he's a reformed Trotskyist (I know, I know, I have weird friends, but they would say the same ). The kids thought it was great - all those holidays. The good thing is they were taught - not in an indocrinating fashion - about the holidays and their meaning. The kids were very mature, very broad-minded (in the best sense) and relaxed about the multicultural nature of our society. It was funny though, my friend (and colleague) used to come and see me (I was his nominal boss then - we worked for the union) and ask for time off to pick the kids up early at the end of the week due to Shabbat (my ex is non-observant but I knew what he was talking about from a cultural point of view) and I knew he wasn't Jewish. It made for interesting discussions.

Heh... I have weird friends, too... and ditto! It sounds like it was a great experience for your friends' kids. I'm glad about that. So many people think we're creatures from another planet. I have absolutely no issues with tolerance and education about other cultures. It was the double standard that bugged me.

How did your friend feel about having to pick the kids up early on Friday? There's something to be said for having a day to do nothing where you can just connect to family, friends and the forces of the universe. I'm not observant either, or at least minimally observant, so we don't get that type of thing.

 

[Diuretic]

Heh... I have weird friends, too... and ditto! It sounds like it was a great experience for your friends' kids. I'm glad about that. So many people think we're creatures from another planet. I have absolutely no issues with tolerance and education about other cultures. It was the double standard that bugged me.

How did your friend feel about having to pick the kids up early on Friday? There's something to be said for having a day to do nothing where you can just connect to family, friends and the forces of the universe. I'm not observant either, or at least minimally observant, so we don't get that type of thing.

He was fine with picking the kids up, I was happy to let him go early (as I said, I was his nominal boss back then) because they were valid family reasons and he was a very valuable member of the team. Everyone else in the office was okay with it too, which was important. I remember asking him once "why Masada?" and as he told me, the kids got a great education, that seems fair enough to me.

 

[Annie]

Is the school teaching a language or teaching IN a language? Or is it both?

Either way it doesn't matter. I mean if someone wants to study mathematics using Hebrew, fine with me. From that I would assume that the objective, or at least one of the objectives, is to keep the language alive among Jewish students so that they can better participate and understand their faith and they can, if they wish, claim their citizenship rights in Israel (where they would need Hebrew to function).





If the current Pope hadn't brought up the Tridentine Rite that observation may not have had the power it does. It was in Vatican II I think that the decision was made to allow the Mass to be held in indigenous languages rather than Latin. But Latin has historically been taught in the West as the language of philosophy and science (well, up until now I mean). I think it was Churchill who once said that he learned Latin at school as a fundamental but Greek was a treat, something like that anyway.

As for the Arab culture - Arabs are Muslim, Christian, atheist etc. It's a culture being taught, probably for the same reasons as Hebrew was being used in the school in question, it's about cultural transmission and maintenance rather than religion. The biggest Muslim nation in the world isn't Arabian in culture.

Wow, if anyone can provide the curriculum for a public school, outside perhaps of 'gifted' that even offers Latin, please post a link.

I'm very pro-Israel, however, I find it just as problematic to have a school devoted to Hebrew language courses, as the Islamic school that was, (has?) opening in NY. Just wrong. BTW, I feel the same about a 'Spanish speaking curriculum', which would actually 'serve'/'harm' many more.

 

[Dr Grump]

I find it just as problematic to have a school devoted to Hebrew language courses, as the Islamic school that was, (has?) opening in NY. Just wrong. BTW, I feel the same about a 'Spanish speaking curriculum', which would actually 'serve'/'harm' many more.

Why?

 

[Annie]

Why?

I believe that if one wishes to reside in America, one needs to be functional in English. There is no way to 'mandate' that for adults, ala 'official language', but in tax supported school? Hell, yes.

 

[lieberalism]

America should teach American language and that only. All others are crap and have no place in America.

If you dont speak english, get the fuck out of this country.