Can Atheists be Moral?

[ding]

Morals?

You don't have any.

You don't even know what morals mean...

Morals are effectively standards. They exist independent of man.

 

[RWS]

When we talk about morals, Christianity should put its tail up its ass and run away...

That’s like saying a gun is evil. A gun is just a tool that can be used for good or evil. The gun itself is neither good or bad.

For any given thing there will be a distribution. There will be an envelope or spectrum. There will be good and bad Christians just like there will be good and bad atheists.

Dumbass, It's the person that is good or evil. You chose EVIL.

I choose GOOD.

You said Christianity was evil, brother. I just explained to you that Christianity can’t be evil. It’s just a tool. And like all tools it can be used for good and evil.

Given that my only crime is believing differently than you, I’m not sure how you make the leap of faith that I am evil. What is it that I have done - besides believing differently than you - that makes me evil?

Are all people who don’t believe as you do, evil?

And lastly, who is the evil person? The one who calls others evil for no good reason? Or the one who is defending himself from attacks by an aggressor?

Why am I being asked if I have morals? Because I'm atheist? When I have far more morals than you religious nuts.

Am I somehow inferior to your religious views?

 

[ding]

When we talk about morals, Christianity should put its tail up its ass and run away...

That’s like saying a gun is evil. A gun is just a tool that can be used for good or evil. The gun itself is neither good or bad.

For any given thing there will be a distribution. There will be an envelope or spectrum. There will be good and bad Christians just like there will be good and bad atheists.

Dumbass, It's the person that is good or evil. You chose EVIL.

I choose GOOD.

You said Christianity was evil, brother. I just explained to you that Christianity can’t be evil. It’s just a tool. And like all tools it can be used for good and evil.

Given that my only crime is believing differently than you, I’m not sure how you make the leap of faith that I am evil. What is it that I have done - besides believing differently than you - that makes me evil?

Are all people who don’t believe as you do, evil?

And lastly, who is the evil person? The one who calls others evil for no good reason? Or the one who is defending himself from attacks by an aggressor?

Why am I being asked if I have morals? Because I'm atheist? When I have far more morals than you religious nuts.

Am I somehow inferior to your religious views?

I’m not the one asking. My answer was, yes. It was the first reply I made in this thread.

I’m not the one calling others evil. That’s you.

 

[RWS]

When we talk about morals, Christianity should put its tail up its ass and run away...

That’s like saying a gun is evil. A gun is just a tool that can be used for good or evil. The gun itself is neither good or bad.

For any given thing there will be a distribution. There will be an envelope or spectrum. There will be good and bad Christians just like there will be good and bad atheists.

Dumbass, It's the person that is good or evil. You chose EVIL.

I choose GOOD.

You said Christianity was evil, brother. I just explained to you that Christianity can’t be evil. It’s just a tool. And like all tools it can be used for good and evil.

Given that my only crime is believing differently than you, I’m not sure how you make the leap of faith that I am evil. What is it that I have done - besides believing differently than you - that makes me evil?

Are all people who don’t believe as you do, evil?

And lastly, who is the evil person? The one who calls others evil for no good reason? Or the one who is defending himself from attacks by an aggressor?

Why am I being asked if I have morals? Because I'm atheist? When I have far more morals than you religious nuts.

Am I somehow inferior to your religious views?

I’m not the one asking. My answer was, yes. It was the first reply I made in this thread.

I’m not the one calling others evil. That’s you.

So I'm inferior to you because I don't believe in your religion?
And have no morals?

 

[MedfordMan]

Sin is disobedience to the law of God. But since the words of the law are figurative and the subjects are hidden, as Jesus revealed, many people are walking around feeling guilty for doing what is not sin and defiantly sinning without any awareness of their guilt.

Some people lie in the name of God as if its a religious duty and defy his commands as if death is the way to life.

There are even buildings all around the world where believers openly practice idolatry every Sunday thinking that by conforming to that vile and degrading practice they are saved.


Imagine that!

H,

i disagree.

Sin is not just disobedience to the law of God it is disobedience to the perfect will of God whether that is expressly outlined in a "law" or not.

You don’t seriously believe this guy believes in God, do you?

The only religion he has is the religion of bashing Christianity. Especially Catholicism. But it’s actually even worse than that, he condemns respect for Christians and especially Catholics.

It's very easy to bash Christianity. Especially Catholicism. You people are wrong and evil. But so are every other religions. Yours are just easy because of documented history. You're evil people, believing in an evil religion. For the benefit of a few.

Just abandon that shit. And have your faith in goodness, and forfeit the evil and sin that your religion promotes and allows.

You mean sort of like how Hitler saw the Jews?

Absolutely not. Where did you get that from? Hitler was the opposite. He wanted people to think like him and believe in his Nazi religion. And if they didn't, they got killed.

Another religion, that led to atrocities.

So under this illogically based premise, any Orthodxy or Ideology that has a group philosophy even those who denigrate or dismiss religion (ie. Socialism, Communism, Atheism) are "relugions" and thus all "religion" is responsible for the atrocities in the world.

Man I've seen people tie themselves into logical pretzels to try to justify their selfish sin natutes, but this silly argument takes the cake.

 

[ding]

That’s like saying a gun is evil. A gun is just a tool that can be used for good or evil. The gun itself is neither good or bad.

For any given thing there will be a distribution. There will be an envelope or spectrum. There will be good and bad Christians just like there will be good and bad atheists.

Dumbass, It's the person that is good or evil. You chose EVIL.

I choose GOOD.

You said Christianity was evil, brother. I just explained to you that Christianity can’t be evil. It’s just a tool. And like all tools it can be used for good and evil.

Given that my only crime is believing differently than you, I’m not sure how you make the leap of faith that I am evil. What is it that I have done - besides believing differently than you - that makes me evil?

Are all people who don’t believe as you do, evil?

And lastly, who is the evil person? The one who calls others evil for no good reason? Or the one who is defending himself from attacks by an aggressor?

Why am I being asked if I have morals? Because I'm atheist? When I have far more morals than you religious nuts.

Am I somehow inferior to your religious views?

I’m not the one asking. My answer was, yes. It was the first reply I made in this thread.

I’m not the one calling others evil. That’s you.

So I'm inferior to you because I don't believe in your religion?
And have no morals?

How did you make that leap in logic?

Because I certainly never said or gave you a reason to believe I believe that.

But let me be clear, no and no.

 

[BreezeWood]

Ironically, in Isaiah 40:22, the Bible states that the earth is round long before modern science was around

No it doesn't. How absurd. For every overwrought attempt to peddle that nonsense, one can just as easily produce passages from the bible that imply the earth is flat.

Much ado about nothing

Excuse you, its germane to your point. In one breath, you claim not to be in possession of the one, divine truth. In the next, you claim god communicates this truth to you. And,in the next, you claim that your magical beliefs are correct, while those of other religions are wrong. I can see how you would want to sidestep this obvious contradiction in your talking points, because it discredits you utterly .

Let me correct a couple of misperceptions.

God, through the Holy Spirt, doesn't just speak to me or other believers, he's speaking to you and everyone else. You're just not listening.

That's not as critical as it sounds, because I get it. My selfish sin nature makes it difficult for me to listen to HIM too.

God (through the Holy Spirit) doesn't communicate "truth" to me. He provides practical direction in the minute to minute decisions I have to make in my daily life.

You see God doesn't provide truth, he IS righteous and true.

As a Christian, I am not better than you. I'm not smarter than you. I don't have any greater understanding of anything other than this. I'm a sinner, like you, but I can't redeem myself.

You seek truth? That's the truth I understand and that you don't.

You have made it clear that you don't feel that you need God and can do it all yourself.

Good luck to you, I tried that for years and was unsuccessful. If you can pull it off, you're a better man than me.

.

I'm a sinner, like you, but I can't redeem myself.

what are the sins you can not stop committing, you fool yourself by the 4th century christian religion - follow the true religion as prescribed by the Almighty, triumph over evil for admission to the Everlasting.

A sin is simply choosing not to do the perfect will of God. When I choose to do my own selfish will instead of the perfect will of God (for whatever reason), I sin. Remember it's not just the act (or thought), it's the heart behind the act (or thought).

The list of sins I never commit would be must shorter than the list of sins I do commit.

This "what are the sins you can't stop committing" is not a gotcha, it's as silly as asking "what bad food can't you stop eating". If you don't eat perfectly, there are too many kinds of foods you eat (or have eaten your entire life), but shouldn't.

Feel free to flesh out your 4th century religion argument, but it has two flaws going in.

First there were many false religions and false teachings in the early church.

If what your espousing was the true word of an all powerful God, why did it die out?

.

When I choose to do my own selfish will instead of the perfect will of God (for whatever reason), I sin.

and that is something you can not control - so you rely on a makebelieve messiah to save you when your evil deeds affect others ...

the prescribed religion of the Almighty is to triumph over evil - that is your sin against their will - good luck.

 

[ding]

Ironically, in Isaiah 40:22, the Bible states that the earth is round long before modern science was around

No it doesn't. How absurd. For every overwrought attempt to peddle that nonsense, one can just as easily produce passages from the bible that imply the earth is flat.

Much ado about nothing

Excuse you, its germane to your point. In one breath, you claim not to be in possession of the one, divine truth. In the next, you claim god communicates this truth to you. And,in the next, you claim that your magical beliefs are correct, while those of other religions are wrong. I can see how you would want to sidestep this obvious contradiction in your talking points, because it discredits you utterly .

Let me correct a couple of misperceptions.

God, through the Holy Spirt, doesn't just speak to me or other believers, he's speaking to you and everyone else. You're just not listening.

That's not as critical as it sounds, because I get it. My selfish sin nature makes it difficult for me to listen to HIM too.

God (through the Holy Spirit) doesn't communicate "truth" to me. He provides practical direction in the minute to minute decisions I have to make in my daily life.

You see God doesn't provide truth, he IS righteous and true.

As a Christian, I am not better than you. I'm not smarter than you. I don't have any greater understanding of anything other than this. I'm a sinner, like you, but I can't redeem myself.

You seek truth? That's the truth I understand and that you don't.

You have made it clear that you don't feel that you need God and can do it all yourself.

Good luck to you, I tried that for years and was unsuccessful. If you can pull it off, you're a better man than me.

.

I'm a sinner, like you, but I can't redeem myself.

what are the sins you can not stop committing, you fool yourself by the 4th century christian religion - follow the true religion as prescribed by the Almighty, triumph over evil for admission to the Everlasting.

A sin is simply choosing not to do the perfect will of God. When I choose to do my own selfish will instead of the perfect will of God (for whatever reason), I sin. Remember it's not just the act (or thought), it's the heart behind the act (or thought).

The list of sins I never commit would be must shorter than the list of sins I do commit.

This "what are the sins you can't stop committing" is not a gotcha, it's as silly as asking "what bad food can't you stop eating". If you don't eat perfectly, there are too many kinds of foods you eat (or have eaten your entire life), but shouldn't.

Feel free to flesh out your 4th century religion argument, but it has two flaws going in.

First there were many false religions and false teachings in the early church.

If what your espousing was the true word of an all powerful God, why did it die out?

.

When I choose to do my own selfish will instead of the perfect will of God (for whatever reason), I sin.

and that is something you can not control - so you rely on a makebelieve messiah to save you when your evil deeds affect others ...

the prescribed religion of the Almighty is to triumph over evil - that is your sin against their will - good luck.

That’s not how it works.

But you aren’t interested in that. You are only interested in grinding your ax.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

That’s not how it works.

Yes it is.

 

[MarathonMike]

I don't see the correlation between morality and one's religious beliefs, or lack of religious beliefs.

 

[ding]

That’s not how it works.

Yes it is.

No. It’s not. The fact that you think it is just might be the root cause of all your erroneous beliefs about Christianity.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

That’s not how it works.

Yes it is.

No. It’s not. The fact that you think it is just might be the root cause of all your erroneous beliefs about Christianity.

Yes, it is. And oops, no way to tell who is right. The downfall of magical whimsy.

 

[ding]

That’s not how it works.

Yes it is.

No. It’s not. The fact that you think it is just might be the root cause of all your erroneous beliefs about Christianity.

Yes, it is. And oops, no way to tell who is right. The downfall of magical whimsy.

Wrong. You seem to have swallowed the Protestant belief. The problem is that even the Protestant belief assumes that the fabric of the identity changes when one enters into a relationship with the living Christ.

Your specific problem is that you believe it is like a get out of jail for free card. It isn’t.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

You seem to have swallowed the Protestant belief. The problem is that even the Protestant belief assumes that the fabric of the identity changes when one enters into a relationship with the living Christ.

In your opinion. Sorry ding, as much of an authority as you obviously hold yourself on absolute, divine truths, I think you are wrong. And oops, no good way to tell the difference. Just a bunch of sectarian assholes, claiming their dogma can beat up your dogma.

The downfall of magical nonsense.

 

[ding]

You seem to have swallowed the Protestant belief. The problem is that even the Protestant belief assumes that the fabric of the identity changes when one enters into a relationship with the living Christ.

In your opinion. Sorry ding, as much of an authority as you obviously hold yourself on absolute, divine truths, I think you are wrong. And oops, no good way to tell the difference. Just a bunch of sectarian assholes, claiming their dogma can beat up your dogma.

The downfall of magical nonsense.

Given that I have tested it and you haven’t, I don’t see how you can see yourself as an authority on it at all.

 

[ding]

You seem to have swallowed the Protestant belief. The problem is that even the Protestant belief assumes that the fabric of the identity changes when one enters into a relationship with the living Christ.

In your opinion. Sorry ding, as much of an authority as you obviously hold yourself on absolute, divine truths, I think you are wrong. And oops, no good way to tell the difference. Just a bunch of sectarian assholes, claiming their dogma can beat up your dogma.

The downfall of magical nonsense.

The problem is that you think it is magical when in reality it is practical.

There’s nothing magical about successful behaviors leading to success. It is natural. Not magical.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Given that I have tested it and you haven’t

You have tested nothing. You have no tests, no repeatable results, and nothing that is proof to anyone but to yourself. That is precisely NOT evidence, by any standard.

 

[ding]

Given that I have tested it and you haven’t

You have tested nothing. You have no tests, no repeatable results, and nothing that is proof to anyone but to yourself. That is precisely NOT evidence, by any standard.

No. I absolutely have. How do you know what I have or have not done?

 

[ding]

Given that I have tested it and you haven’t

You have tested nothing. You have no tests, no repeatable results, and nothing that is proof to anyone but to yourself. That is precisely NOT evidence, by any standard.

Are you telling me that if you behave one way and observe those results and then behave in a diametrically opposed way and observe those results and see consistent results when the behaviors are repeated that that is not testing it?

 

[hobelim]

You say its all magical bullshit.

And you claim your particular, preferred pile of magical bullshit is the only magical bullshit that is not bullshit.

So, a rational person like me is left with two choices"

1) Shaman Hobelim holds the only, absolute divine truth, and everyone else is full of shit.

2) Shaman Hobelim is just as full of shit as eveyone else.

Its not a tough call.

lol,,, there you go again too..

I tell you there is hidden teaching in scripture just like any fairy tale and you say there is no hidden teaching. I mention a talking serpent and you said the authors 'absolutely' believed that snakes can talk. I tell you that a talking serpent is an archetype for a specific type of person described in great detail, which is true about any talking animal in a fairy tale, and you call you that magical bullshit.

Now thats quite the steaming pile of hypocritical bullshit right there dripping off your lips.



You two are just as dumb and deliberately blind as any deceptive religious fundamentalist nut job out there...

You know what conservatives can’t do? They can’t erase history especially when movies have been made about how religions felt about people who challenged their teachings like the earth isn’t the center of the universe

And Christians can’t say now that they never said Noah and Adam were real but instead just allegorical teachings. And Jonah. These stories were all factual just a century ago. In fact many still argue the earth is flat, god made the earth in 7 days and the earth is only 5000 years old.

The people who call themselves Christians but believe in evolution aren’t really Christians. They believe all the stories in the Bible are just allegories. The ones they can’t justify in their heads get filed away as allegories.

But then the question is was jesus just an allegory? Walking on water, miracles, virgin births, rising from the dead. The obvious answer is yes, he too is just an allegory. And a lot of people are ok with following Christianity even if jesus isn’t the literal son of god. They think Christianity is still a good club to be in. So they have a personal relationship with god even if they don’t believe the religion. Never even imagining god isn’t real. I know because this was my path to agnostic atheism

Ok, I see where you are coming from. I also see that you have made some errors in your speculations.

You heard about the claim that the earth was flat and dismissed it out of hand as bronze age ignorance because everyone now knows the earth is round but the earth being flat had nothing to do with the shape of the planet. It was about the earth being a level playing field, everyone was equal. There were no mountains or valleys, rich or poor.

The earth was flat in this way, in the beginning. Who would dispute that? Scripture speaking of otherworldly spheres of intelligent life seems to indicate that they knew that other planets were round before we confirmed the existence of other solar systems with planets.

In the same way the fantastical things that Jesus did were metaphors for something a real person actually did, whether raising the dead, giving sight to the blind, walking on water, etc., the title, Son of God, is just a relational metaphor, not a claim about God having supernatural offspring.

So I would suggest to you to leave the question of whether God exists or not open until you decipher the metaphors and come to comprehend the moral teaching and hard learned lessons of the past hidden in these fantastical stories written by enlightened men to educate their own children.



Seriously, if I what I just showed you about the earth being flat wasn't obvious, God won't be visible to you either.