Debate Now CALIFORNIA: San Francisco board open to reparations with $5M payouts

[IM2]

Then there is the matter of Blacks all around the world. What about all of the OTHER countries that abused and enslaved them?

This is stupid. Here is evidence of someone white looking for excuses. Did you consider the Japanese abuses of other Asian countries when they got reparations?

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Explain how so! Why is now the time when 1865 wasn't? The time for reparations should have been right after Lincoln freed them. If there was any question of debt or debate, it was THEN and to those who had been wronged! Wasn't being freed its own reparation? Just how and by who do we decide the reparations, to a people who have never known slavery? By those that never committed it? And how do you single the Blacks out when everyone else has similarly suffered their own injustices--- I mean, even slavery does not compare to what was done to the American Indian--- where is THEIR reparations? Seems to me that the very least we owe them is about ten states!

Then there are reparations to their culture, reparations to the buffalo, and reparations to the ecology.

You've covered a lot of different things in your first paragraph and I apologize for not having been here earlier but I have other responsibilities during the work week.

So let me begin with just one of the things you've mentioned. If a person or entity has caused harm to an individual or a group of people then what generally is supposed to be done in order to make amends?

In our society, a person who is liable for causing harm to another is also "generally" the party responsible for "making them whole again", essentially responsible for putting them back to where they would have been - financially, socially, educationally, etc. had not it been for the, let's just call it, the "offending/criminal" act that sent their life off the rails.

Freeing the slaves without providing them with the means and ability to build a meaningful life for themselves and their families was particularly cruel. Freeing them did not "make them whole". To the contrary, our governments then began a campaign consisting of laws specific to people of African descent that criminalized their mere existence and hamstrung their ability to achieve upward mobility of any form. White people of that time were not going to participate in or support any activity that had the potential to advance the lives of Black people beyond their own.

And think about it, while the former slaves were basically turned out from what had previously been their homes with no assets of their own or ability to advance in society, the slave owners were "compensated" for the loss of their "property" (their slaves). The slave owners were "made whole" as much as they could be by providing them with monetary compensation for what the government had taken from them.

Our government has never formally acknowledged and apologized for it's role in perpetuating chattel slavery upon people of African descent, nor of the myriad of laws specially created to criminalize & oppress Black lives, let alone compensated Black people for subjecting them to lawful racial discrimination that could be carried out against them by any white person in society. That racial discrimination was often violent and in many cases lead to the death of the victim and this is STILL happening today in 2023 (see

A Black man was found dead after he told his mother he was being chased. Police said there's ‘no reason’ to suspect foul play).​

Our country and military valued German prisoners of war more than they did the Tuskegee Airmen who despite being treated as second class citizens fought bravely along side of other Ally airmen against Hitler favoring the Axis German POWs simply because they were white.

But I've strayed from what I wanted to say. As horrific as slavery was, the mistreatment of Black people didn't cease with the abolishment of slavery. In fact it has never ceased all together and was openly practiced until the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, but make no mistake. Just because the laws changes, the hearts and minds of everyone , especially white racist, did not follow.

Because the mistreatment of Black people continued on for another 99 some odd years, legalized by our government, and enforced on behalf of whites against Blacks by our government, then yes, in my opinion, reparations paid by our government to every Black person in American who lived through any part of slavery, Jim Crow, "separate but equal", red lining, racial covenants, "back of the bus", "Whites Only", "No Coloreds", etc. would be proper.

I will try to address more of the issues you raised once the weekend arrives.

 

[Mac1958]

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In my opinion, reparations paid by our government(s) are proper and should be paid sooner rather than later.

I wince every time I see the word slavery used in a discussion regarding reparations. As has been pointed out, hardly anyone who lived under slavery is still alive today however Black people in America have not just been viewed as second class citizens, racially discriminatory practices, policies, laws, practices, societal more and actual laws were legislated and put in place in order to perpetuate this status.

A whole new set of laws called Black Codes along with the implementation of the infamous "Jim Crow" which was the collective set of laws and legal racial discrimination that was created and passed whose only purpose was to oppress and criminalize Black lives and ultimately return as many freed slaves back into captivity as possible. This scheme was known as "convict leasing" and was implemented in order to create a new free labor pool to replace the free labor lost by the abolishment of slavery.

Another scheme used which is currently outlawed in the United States was peonage. Black people could be jailed, convicted and farmed out under the convict leasing program simply on the accusation of a white person during a time when a Black person, slave or free, had no standing (could not legally) to accuse, sue or testify against a white person. It should also be noted that until the practice of convict leasing began, the jails and penitentiaries were predominantly white.

Because our government created the racially discriminatory laws, enforced said laws against Black people and most often refused to enforce the law when whites committed crimes of fraud and/or violence against Black people, our government would be the proper party to pay reparations and reparations should be paid.

Slavery was only the beginning of the horrific and heinous human rights violations against people of African descent and it's only been since the passage of the Civil Rights Act in 1964 that racial segregation became unlawful in all 50 states yet we still see acts of aggression, hatred and violence carried out against Black, people irrespective of any laws that are currently in place.

Although I don't expect to see reparations actually become a reality during my lifetime, they should be paid.

Do you see any potential downsides to this idea?

If so, what are they, and what are their ramifications?

 

[toobfreak]

If a person or entity has caused harm to an individual or a group of people then what generally is supposed to be done in order to make amends? In our society, a person who is liable for causing harm to another is also "generally" the party responsible for "making them whole again",

Yes but, the blacks who were harmed are long dead as are the people who harmed them. Further, what about all of the other countries that used blacks including other black tribes that sold them? Slavery has been going on for THOUSANDS of years, worldwide, and not just to Blacks, but many peoples--- why aren't we addressing those?

essentially responsible for putting them back to where they would have been - financially, socially, educationally, etc.

Well, wouldn't that mean sending them back to Africa to live in mud and thatch huts? Tell me, after we stole all the Indian's land with fake documents, killed most of them herding the remainder onto unwanted land good for nothing, who took care of the Indians, financially, socially and educationally? And what happened to SIXTY years of affirmative action and all the money that entailed trying to tilt things in black's favor? Why are our cities choked with black slums and not slums of deadbeat Indians?

Freeing the slaves without providing them with the means and ability to build a meaningful life for themselves and their families was particularly cruel.

Then why did so many blacks prosper and flourish anyway, such as George Washington Carver? Why wasn't HE held back? What ever happened to personal responsibility for yourself? Isn't waiting for another handout exactly what made blacks into the semi-dysfunctional portion of society they are?

Freeing them did not "make them whole".

No one has ever worried about making my life "whole." What about you? If I'm the recipient of white privilege, then you would think my life would be whole long before any terribly neglected and oppressed blacks!

As horrific as slavery was

A great man blacks ended up in pretty comfortable surroundings living in mansions providing service roles and ended up far better off than if they had stayed in Africa. Admit that much. Bottom line is that no one need apologize for history and social evolution because the nature of history is to generally evolve from the primitive into the more advanced, otherwise, it wouldn't be social evolution, but despite all the money and effort, a great many Blacks not only show no evidence of working towards a congruent life as a constructive part of modern society, but are actually REGRESSING towards increasingly anti-social behavior! Now, why in the hell should anyone invest in an anti-social, destructive faction of society??? Where is the proof that this just wouldn't yet again BLOW UP IN OUR FACES like every other time?

Because the mistreatment of Black people

I have a news flash for you: a great many people today of ALL races are being mistreated by our government. We are all owed a better return, a far better return on what we invest into it.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Do you see any potential downsides to this idea?

If so, what are they, and what are their ramifications?

You mean other than resentment, increased hatred and a potential uptick in violence against Black Americans?

 

[Mac1958]

You mean other than resentment, increased hatred and a potential uptick in violence against Black Americans?

That's one of the things I'm wondering is a consideration, yes.

I often wonder if the ends of the spectrum fully examine the ramifications of their ideas.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Yes but, the blacks who were harmed are long dead as are the people who harmed them. Further, what about all of the other countries that used blacks including other black tribes that sold them? Slavery has been going on for THOUSANDS of years, worldwide, and not just to Blacks, but many peoples--- why aren't we addressing those?

Why would the United States attempt to address what's going on in another country when it has yet to atone for its own involvement in the slave trade and the devastating impact it's laws, policies and practices had upon the lives of people of African descent? This is the primary main reason I inwardly cringe when I see reparations attached to slavery. All the 13th Amendment did was outlaw the practice of slavery in the United States "except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted". Suddenly Black people were being punished for things that weren't even a crime when white people did them. This was a scheme perpetuated by governments to create a free labor pool by returning as many freed slaves back to bondage so that money could continue to be made off of them by using them as free labor (convict leasing). Prior to this time, the jails and prison were predominantly white. Due to convict leasing the inmate population not surprisingly became, for the first time, predominantly Black.

A scheme created, allowed and enforced by our government and for which reparations would be proper.

 

[toobfreak]

Why would the United States attempt to address what's going on in another country when it has yet to atone for its own involvement in the slave trade and the devastating impact it's laws, policies and practices had upon the lives of people of African descent?

Because like I said, no one atones for history, one can only learn from things you no longer find socially acceptable and improve on them. Like, I don't need to atone for people once living in caves eating raw meat cooked over a fire spit. And since slavery was a global thing coming in countless forms and times, thinking you can atone for it by paying one small group of people off with a bribe in one place for just one thing is a fool's errand which not only fails to address the core of the matter, but is a set up for forever being in another's debt forever "atoning."

 

[there4eyeM]

How is the cost in lives and treasure of the Civil War counted into these figures?

 

[JoeB131]

What would be the purpose of reparations?

To compensate black people for the prejudice they encountered in the past? Um. Okay. Then why stop with blacks?

My grandparents came here from Germany between World War I and World War II, and encountered a LOT of anti-German prejudice. So did my dad, even though he was brought over as a baby and grew up here learning English. Where's my reparations?

The Irish, the Chinese, the Jews, the Italians, Catholics, etc. all encountered some form of prejudice or discrimination from the WASPs, who wanted to benefit from their labor, but would never invite them to dinner. Do we have a sliding scale of who gets how much reparation.

Because I am 1/8 Cherokee, 1/8th Irish, 1/8th Dutch, 1/8th English and 1/2 German. So I'm 3/4 of oppressed groups vs. 1/4 oppressors, I think.

To give them a helping hand in moving up? Well, we've been throwing Money into the ghettos since the Great Society, for what little good it's done, and they are still ghettos. 22 TRILION in anti-poverty programs since 1964, and some can argue they've made matters worse as people have learned how to game the system.

The War on Poverty After 50 Years

This week, the U.S. Census Bureau is scheduled to release its annual poverty report. The report will be notable because this year marks the 50th anniversary of the launch of President Lyndon Johnson’s War on Poverty. In his January 1964 State of the Union address, Johnson proclaimed, “This...

www.heritage.org

The comparison that gets made is to the payments to Japanese Americans for being incarcerated during WWII. Except that was a very limited program. It was only restricted to people who were actually interned in those camps, and it was only $20,000 in 1988 money (which would be $52,000 in 2023 dollars)

But if you get into "I'm going to pay you because of something bad that happened to your ancestors", you get into a very sticky wicket.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

the Civil Rights Act in 1964 that racial segregation became unlawful in all 50 states yet we still see acts of aggression, hatred and violence carried out against Black, people irrespective of any laws that are currently in place.

Correct.

In fact, misrepresenting and lying about 'woke' is to pursue a neo-segregationist agenda.

 

[marvin martian]

That's one of the things I'm wondering is a consideration, yes.

I often wonder if the ends of the spectrum fully examine the ramifications of their ideas.

You tell us. You voted for Biden/Harris, the most radical administration in American history.

 

[Ms. Turquoise]

Not to mention all the Irish and Chinese people who were slaves in the northeast and California, respectively. What are they getting?

Chinese people (who were not slaves) suffered at the hands of White Supremacist, but not the same way enslaved Africans did. And Irish people (who were not slaves) are White themselves, so they were able to blend into the mainstream society after a few generations.
No other demographic were subjected to the chattel slavery Africans were subjected to in America.

 

[Ms. Turquoise]

We seem to think we are still a Republic at times. We are a Democracy most of the time with leaders who are authoritarian. We are going to destroy ourselves abusing the fiat currency that helped to destroy the Republic when the Federal Reserve Act was enacted in 1913.

Please don't derail this thread. This discussion is not about fiat currency or the Federal Reserve Act of 1913. Thank you.

 

[Ms. Turquoise]

You mean other than resentment, increased hatred and a potential uptick in violence against Black Americans?

Maybe Blacks need to buy themselves a gun and take gun safety classes to learn how to use it. I'm not a big fan of guns, but if Black people are going to be attacked just because we've received their rightful reparations, well---we need to protect ourselves.

 

[Ms. Turquoise]

What would be the purpose of reparations?

To compensate black people for the prejudice they encountered in the past? Um. Okay. Then why stop with blacks?

My grandparents came here from Germany between World War I and World War II, and encountered a LOT of anti-German prejudice. So did my dad, even though he was brought over as a baby and grew up here learning English. Where's my reparations?

The Irish, the Chinese, the Jews, the Italians, Catholics, etc. all encountered some form of prejudice or discrimination from the WASPs, who wanted to benefit from their labor, but would never invite them to dinner. Do we have a sliding scale of who gets how much reparation.

Because I am 1/8 Cherokee, 1/8th Irish, 1/8th Dutch, 1/8th English and 1/2 German. So I'm 3/4 of oppressed groups vs. 1/4 oppressors, I think.

To give them a helping hand in moving up? Well, we've been throwing Money into the ghettos since the Great Society, for what little good it's done, and they are still ghettos. 22 TRILION in anti-poverty programs since 1964, and some can argue they've made matters worse as people have learned how to game the system.

The War on Poverty After 50 Years

This week, the U.S. Census Bureau is scheduled to release its annual poverty report. The report will be notable because this year marks the 50th anniversary of the launch of President Lyndon Johnson’s War on Poverty. In his January 1964 State of the Union address, Johnson proclaimed, “This...

www.heritage.org

The comparison that gets made is to the payments to Japanese Americans for being incarcerated during WWII. Except that was a very limited program. It was only restricted to people who were actually interned in those camps, and it was only $20,000 in 1988 money (which would be $52,000 in 2023 dollars)

But if you get into "I'm going to pay you because of something bad that happened to your ancestors", you get into a very sticky wicket.

Why do White people get upset anytime they see a program that benefits Blacks only? Chattel slavery was a condition that affected Blacks only. So, why can't we have a reparations program that is for Blacks only?

 

[JoeB131]

Chinese people (who were not slaves) suffered at the hands of White Supremacist, but not the same way enslaved Africans did. And Irish people (who were not slaves) are White themselves, so they were able to blend into the mainstream society after a few generations.
No other demographic were subjected to the chattel slavery Africans were subjected to in America.

Actually, the conditions the Chinese Coolie laborers suffered were barely above slavery.

Why do White people get upset anytime they see a program that benefits Blacks only? Chattel slavery was a condition that affected Blacks only. So, why can't we have a reparations program that is for Blacks only?

1) Because the people getting the reparations weren't the ones who suffered. Those people are all dead.
2) Because we've already chucked 22 TRILLION into the ghettos since 1964, and that hasn't made things better
3) Why should I have to pay reparations? I've never owned a slave, never made anyone ride on the back of the bus, and never denied anyone a job.

 

[Ralph Norton]

they awarded the Sioux nation 105 million dollars..

So this alone sets the precedent for payment of reparations to blacks.

Ok, you win.
We should give blacks $105 million in reparations.
Should be about $2 each - don't spend it all in one place.

 

[IM2]

Yes but, the blacks who were harmed are long dead as are the people who harmed them. Further, what about all of the other countries that used blacks including other black tribes that sold them? Slavery has been going on for THOUSANDS of years, worldwide, and not just to Blacks, but many peoples--- why aren't we addressing those?

Incorrect. I was born during Jim Crow and my parents were affected by it. My father was denied the GI bill after he came home from WW2 and that affected the opportunities he had which inevitably affected his ability to earn a decent income or get the same benefits returning white soldiers got. This matter is ot just about slavery You guys have been told this over and over. So stop talking about slavery. And we are talking about what the AMERICAN government did. What went on for thousanfs of years elsewhere has nothing to do with anythin. Ii'm sure you didn't make this argument when Japanese got reparations and the Japanese were ruthless to other Asian nations. This is about what the US GOVERNMENT has done and ONLY the US government.

Well, wouldn't that mean sending them back to Africa to live in mud and thatch huts? Tell me, after we stole all the Indian's land with fake documents, killed most of them herding the remainder onto unwanted land good for nothing, who took care of the Indians, financially, socially and educationally? And what happened to SIXTY years of affirmative action and all the money that entailed trying to tilt things in black's favor? Why are our cities choked with black slums and not slums of deadbeat Indians?

No. Whites have benefitted most from AA, so nothing has been tilted. AA didn't tilt anything to begin with. AA was an attempt to end a tilted system. Whites like you are so ignorant that you can't comprehend how much things have been titlted for whites.

“What white Americans have never fully understood but what the Negro can never forget--is that white society is deeply implicated in the ghetto. White institutions created it, white institutions maintain it, and white society condones it."-Kerner Commission

The problem with debating people like you is that you make comments based on beliefs that are fact free. Reservations are slums also. But the thing I will say is that if you really want to debate this, drop the use of the same silly lines and go study reparations in America so you understand that blacks are not the only ones to ever ask for reparations and if you want to continue arguing the same stupid argument you will find that reparations have been paid to descendants of the people who experienced the original wrong

 

[IM2]

Ok, you win.
We should give blacks $105 million in reparations.
Should be about $2 each - don't spend it all in one place.

The amount starts at an estimated 15 trillion.