Blue Lies Matter: How cops are incentivized to lie — and why they get away with it.

[MarcATL]

Excellent article in the link below on exactly how cops get away with and are encouraged to lie.

 

[tyroneweaver]

Buzzfeed????

LOL

 

[MarcATL]

Buzzfeed????

LOL

What's funny about Buzzfeed?

What are you trying to say?

Spit it out.

 

[Andylusion]

Excellent article in the link below on exactly how cops get away with and are encouraged to lie.

All of this is entirely true.

I remember reading about why police lie, years ago. Nothing has changed. The problem is, you have to put yourself in the place of a police officer, to understand. From the outside, a brainless person would conclude all police are evil. That's not true.

There are two primary reasons police lie.

The first is that we have so many laws that protect the evil and criminal, from the good and just.

Imagine if you grow up wanting to serve the public by enforcing the law. You wanted to be the guy that got the bad guy, and protected the good. Then you join the police force, and every single bad guy you stop, gets off because of a technicality, and despite overwhelming evidence they were criminals doing wrong, they were released back into the public.

The police as a group, see the illegal search and seizure laws, is immoral and unjust. So do I by the way. Maybe police officers should demoted, or suspended, or even fired, for illegal search and seizure... but no matter what, a criminal should not be released over it. If you find clear proof of crime, the criminal should be punished, no matter what the police did wrong.

As a result of this, police have no problem whatsoever with lying, to make sure the criminal punished, and justice is served. So no doubt, police lie all the time on this angle.

To think about it another way, what is the point of even being a police officer, if you can't stop the criminals? Police see their job as pointless, if they don't lie to catch the criminals.

The solution to this problem, is to change the laws, so that criminals are not released simply because a police officer didn't have a reason to look in the window and see the gun.

The second reason, is what the majority of those police beating videos are all about.

Police officers are not robots. They have emotions, like any other human being. In addition, they end up in high stress, high tension situations, where they have a massive Adrenalin rush.

Some of the videos show the end of fight or chase, where the criminal puts his hands up, and goes face down on the ground. What you missed, was where he fought with the police officer to break free, and ran 15 blocks to escape arrest.

By the time the criminal gives up, the police officer is already on an Adrenalin buzz, and mad as crap at this guy. Then you think the police officer should handle him with kid gloves?

No, not happening. And it shouldn't happen honestly. You taunt the police, fight with the police, and run from the police, you deserve having your face smashed in. Don't do that. Do not provoke police, don't fight with police, and don't run from police.

Then if you are beaten, I'll accept it was wrong. But up till then, no. You are criminal running from, taunting, and fighting with police. You deserve being shot. Anyone that does that, deserves to be shot. Police are the authority, and you need to either respect that, or stop crying about what happens.

Lastly, there are bad police officers, just like there are bad people in any group.

But even if there are, in this video you posted, the guy had a gun. That to me, is the end of the story. Unless he was following the gun laws, and was legally allowed to conceal and carry.... he's a criminal. I don't care what the police did.

You follow the laws first. You do YOUR part. Then when you have done your part, then I'll complain about the cops. But as long as you are a criminal, and a supporter of criminals.... yeah this is going to keep happening, because we don't care what the cops do, when you are a criminal. Stop being a criminal. Then we'll talk.

And by the way.... if you push this? If you really push this.... then you'll end up with Chicago. Police will pull back from those areas, and the criminals you have been defending all this time, will rape murder and steal everything in your area, and you only have yourself to blame.

Chicago is what happens when you attack the police. After those protests in Chicago, the police said... ok.... screw you. You want police that never hurt anybody? No problem. Now you don't have to worry about police stops and arrests and lying. Nope, because they practically stop no one.

See how well that's working out for you? You need to decide pretty quick what you want. Because ultimately you get what you want, then you don't like it. It's not the middle-class and upper class white areas where all the murdering is going on in Chicago. But you wanted the police to not shoot anybody... and they are not. You people are, but not the police. So much better isn't it?

 

[SavannahMann]

Excellent article in the link below on exactly how cops get away with and are encouraged to lie.

All of this is entirely true.

I remember reading about why police lie, years ago. Nothing has changed. The problem is, you have to put yourself in the place of a police officer, to understand. From the outside, a brainless person would conclude all police are evil. That's not true.

There are two primary reasons police lie.

The first is that we have so many laws that protect the evil and criminal, from the good and just.

Imagine if you grow up wanting to serve the public by enforcing the law. You wanted to be the guy that got the bad guy, and protected the good. Then you join the police force, and every single bad guy you stop, gets off because of a technicality, and despite overwhelming evidence they were criminals doing wrong, they were released back into the public.

The police as a group, see the illegal search and seizure laws, is immoral and unjust. So do I by the way. Maybe police officers should demoted, or suspended, or even fired, for illegal search and seizure... but no matter what, a criminal should not be released over it. If you find clear proof of crime, the criminal should be punished, no matter what the police did wrong.

As a result of this, police have no problem whatsoever with lying, to make sure the criminal punished, and justice is served. So no doubt, police lie all the time on this angle.

To think about it another way, what is the point of even being a police officer, if you can't stop the criminals? Police see their job as pointless, if they don't lie to catch the criminals.

The solution to this problem, is to change the laws, so that criminals are not released simply because a police officer didn't have a reason to look in the window and see the gun.

The second reason, is what the majority of those police beating videos are all about.

Police officers are not robots. They have emotions, like any other human being. In addition, they end up in high stress, high tension situations, where they have a massive Adrenalin rush.

Some of the videos show the end of fight or chase, where the criminal puts his hands up, and goes face down on the ground. What you missed, was where he fought with the police officer to break free, and ran 15 blocks to escape arrest.

By the time the criminal gives up, the police officer is already on an Adrenalin buzz, and mad as crap at this guy. Then you think the police officer should handle him with kid gloves?

No, not happening. And it shouldn't happen honestly. You taunt the police, fight with the police, and run from the police, you deserve having your face smashed in. Don't do that. Do not provoke police, don't fight with police, and don't run from police.

Then if you are beaten, I'll accept it was wrong. But up till then, no. You are criminal running from, taunting, and fighting with police. You deserve being shot. Anyone that does that, deserves to be shot. Police are the authority, and you need to either respect that, or stop crying about what happens.

Lastly, there are bad police officers, just like there are bad people in any group.

But even if there are, in this video you posted, the guy had a gun. That to me, is the end of the story. Unless he was following the gun laws, and was legally allowed to conceal and carry.... he's a criminal. I don't care what the police did.

You follow the laws first. You do YOUR part. Then when you have done your part, then I'll complain about the cops. But as long as you are a criminal, and a supporter of criminals.... yeah this is going to keep happening, because we don't care what the cops do, when you are a criminal. Stop being a criminal. Then we'll talk.

And by the way.... if you push this? If you really push this.... then you'll end up with Chicago. Police will pull back from those areas, and the criminals you have been defending all this time, will rape murder and steal everything in your area, and you only have yourself to blame.

Chicago is what happens when you attack the police. After those protests in Chicago, the police said... ok.... screw you. You want police that never hurt anybody? No problem. Now you don't have to worry about police stops and arrests and lying. Nope, because they practically stop no one.

See how well that's working out for you? You need to decide pretty quick what you want. Because ultimately you get what you want, then you don't like it. It's not the middle-class and upper class white areas where all the murdering is going on in Chicago. But you wanted the police to not shoot anybody... and they are not. You people are, but not the police. So much better isn't it?

There are so many problems with your arguments that I honestly am having trouble deciding where to begin.

Those silly laws that you argue are designed to protect the evil and criminal from the good and just. Those laws are designed to protect the rights of everyone. I notice that the Police themselves take full advantage of those laws, and many that are not available for the average citizen, when they are accused of a crime. The first thing you have to do is understand why the Civil Rights were codified into the Bill of Rights in the first place. The former colonists were not about to let the abuses of the citizens at the hands of the British Authorities continue under new management. They wrote those protections so that the onus of convicting a criminal fell onto the State. It created the phrase of innocent until proven guilty.

Finding reasons to throw people in prison for some perceived crime against the crown was no problem for the British authorities in the Colonies. Imagine Extraordinary Rendition writ even larger.

The police in that first scenario aren't the forces of good and Justice. They are merely faces of criminals. If you have to lie to prove your case, you did it wrong. Because lying under oath is called Perjury. If you have to Perjur yourself to get the conviction, you are a felon, a criminal yourself.

We don't let a baseball player use sandpaper to scuff up the ball. We don't let a batter put cork in the bat. We throw them out of the game if they are caught cheating. Yet you lionize the police for cheating. The baseball player cheating wants to win, and so does the cop. The big difference is that a baseball team that loses because the other side cheated doesn't go to prison.

If a Police Officer lies under oath even once, he is a criminal. Just as a bank robber is a criminal for robbing one bank. If you claim you have to become a criminal, to catch a criminal, than we have to competing gangs of criminals each trying for control.

 

[SavannahMann]

Excellent article in the link below on exactly how cops get away with and are encouraged to lie.

The second reason, is what the majority of those police beating videos are all about.

Police officers are not robots. They have emotions, like any other human being. In addition, they end up in high stress, high tension situations
Chicago is what happens when you attack the police. After those protests in Chicago, the police said... ok.... screw you. You want police that never hurt anybody? No problem. Now you don't have to worry about police stops and arrests and lying. Nope, because they practically stop no one.

See how well that's working out for you? You need to decide pretty quick what you want. Because ultimately you get what you want, then you don't like it. It's not the middle-class and upper class white areas where all the murdering is going on in Chicago. But you wanted the police to not shoot anybody... and they are not. You people are, but not the police. So much better isn't it?

Perhaps you can answer this question. Why is our option limited to either corrupt police or no police. Why is it out of the question that police do the job they were actually hired for the way they are paid to do it? You know, following the rules, obeying the law themselves, and oh yes, telling the truth? Why is it that we never wonder why we can't do it that way?

 

[Andylusion]

Excellent article in the link below on exactly how cops get away with and are encouraged to lie.

All of this is entirely true.

I remember reading about why police lie, years ago. Nothing has changed. The problem is, you have to put yourself in the place of a police officer, to understand. From the outside, a brainless person would conclude all police are evil. That's not true.

There are two primary reasons police lie.

The first is that we have so many laws that protect the evil and criminal, from the good and just.

Imagine if you grow up wanting to serve the public by enforcing the law. You wanted to be the guy that got the bad guy, and protected the good. Then you join the police force, and every single bad guy you stop, gets off because of a technicality, and despite overwhelming evidence they were criminals doing wrong, they were released back into the public.

The police as a group, see the illegal search and seizure laws, is immoral and unjust. So do I by the way. Maybe police officers should demoted, or suspended, or even fired, for illegal search and seizure... but no matter what, a criminal should not be released over it. If you find clear proof of crime, the criminal should be punished, no matter what the police did wrong.

As a result of this, police have no problem whatsoever with lying, to make sure the criminal punished, and justice is served. So no doubt, police lie all the time on this angle.

To think about it another way, what is the point of even being a police officer, if you can't stop the criminals? Police see their job as pointless, if they don't lie to catch the criminals.

The solution to this problem, is to change the laws, so that criminals are not released simply because a police officer didn't have a reason to look in the window and see the gun.

The second reason, is what the majority of those police beating videos are all about.

Police officers are not robots. They have emotions, like any other human being. In addition, they end up in high stress, high tension situations, where they have a massive Adrenalin rush.

Some of the videos show the end of fight or chase, where the criminal puts his hands up, and goes face down on the ground. What you missed, was where he fought with the police officer to break free, and ran 15 blocks to escape arrest.

By the time the criminal gives up, the police officer is already on an Adrenalin buzz, and mad as crap at this guy. Then you think the police officer should handle him with kid gloves?

No, not happening. And it shouldn't happen honestly. You taunt the police, fight with the police, and run from the police, you deserve having your face smashed in. Don't do that. Do not provoke police, don't fight with police, and don't run from police.

Then if you are beaten, I'll accept it was wrong. But up till then, no. You are criminal running from, taunting, and fighting with police. You deserve being shot. Anyone that does that, deserves to be shot. Police are the authority, and you need to either respect that, or stop crying about what happens.

Lastly, there are bad police officers, just like there are bad people in any group.

But even if there are, in this video you posted, the guy had a gun. That to me, is the end of the story. Unless he was following the gun laws, and was legally allowed to conceal and carry.... he's a criminal. I don't care what the police did.

You follow the laws first. You do YOUR part. Then when you have done your part, then I'll complain about the cops. But as long as you are a criminal, and a supporter of criminals.... yeah this is going to keep happening, because we don't care what the cops do, when you are a criminal. Stop being a criminal. Then we'll talk.

And by the way.... if you push this? If you really push this.... then you'll end up with Chicago. Police will pull back from those areas, and the criminals you have been defending all this time, will rape murder and steal everything in your area, and you only have yourself to blame.

Chicago is what happens when you attack the police. After those protests in Chicago, the police said... ok.... screw you. You want police that never hurt anybody? No problem. Now you don't have to worry about police stops and arrests and lying. Nope, because they practically stop no one.

See how well that's working out for you? You need to decide pretty quick what you want. Because ultimately you get what you want, then you don't like it. It's not the middle-class and upper class white areas where all the murdering is going on in Chicago. But you wanted the police to not shoot anybody... and they are not. You people are, but not the police. So much better isn't it?

There are so many problems with your arguments that I honestly am having trouble deciding where to begin.

Those silly laws that you argue are designed to protect the evil and criminal from the good and just. Those laws are designed to protect the rights of everyone. I notice that the Police themselves take full advantage of those laws, and many that are not available for the average citizen, when they are accused of a crime. The first thing you have to do is understand why the Civil Rights were codified into the Bill of Rights in the first place. The former colonists were not about to let the abuses of the citizens at the hands of the British Authorities continue under new management. They wrote those protections so that the onus of convicting a criminal fell onto the State. It created the phrase of innocent until proven guilty.

Finding reasons to throw people in prison for some perceived crime against the crown was no problem for the British authorities in the Colonies. Imagine Extraordinary Rendition writ even larger.

The police in that first scenario aren't the forces of good and Justice. They are merely faces of criminals. If you have to lie to prove your case, you did it wrong. Because lying under oath is called Perjury. If you have to Perjur yourself to get the conviction, you are a felon, a criminal yourself.

We don't let a baseball player use sandpaper to scuff up the ball. We don't let a batter put cork in the bat. We throw them out of the game if they are caught cheating. Yet you lionize the police for cheating. The baseball player cheating wants to win, and so does the cop. The big difference is that a baseball team that loses because the other side cheated doesn't go to prison.

If a Police Officer lies under oath even once, he is a criminal. Just as a bank robber is a criminal for robbing one bank. If you claim you have to become a criminal, to catch a criminal, than we have to competing gangs of criminals each trying for control.

I'm not trying to argue with you about if you think the police should, or shouldn't lie. Nor am I arguing about I think it's ok.

Regardless of whether you think a police officer lying is a criminal or not... They are all..... ALL.... going to continue to do it, forever.... as long as the current system of laws is the way that it is.

We can argue they should not lie.... I agree they should not lie.

That's great. We agreed. Wonderful. Has that improved anything? No. Nothing has changed. Great, we agreed lying is bad, and that changed nothing, and improve nothing, but we did agree on what changed nothing.

Do you want to solve this problem, or just make a moral statement?

Because until you change the incentives that are causing the resulting action, the action will continue.

And if you simply start punishing, or firing the police that engage in this action, the result will be Chicago. That's exactly what happened. The police got in trouble, and said screw this, we'll only show up when you call 911, which is long after the bodies hit the floor. Hey no one is lying!

Let me attempt to give a comparison. Something I'm dealing with right now.

So I was trying to work with management, about a labor problem. They have more than enough labor to do the work given, but they keep barely scraping by.

They would fire a bunch, and hire replacements, and for a short time they would work hard, and then over a few weeks, soon they were barely working, just like the people they fired.

Now the default answer from manage was, they were lazy, bad employees, so they fired them and got new ones.

So I started observing the situation, and noticed that when people worked really really hard, they would complete all their work, and have nothing to do. People who sat around, and worked as slow as possible, of course they always had work to do.

Well when the manager came out, who got in trouble, and who was praised and rewarded? The people who were done, were told to sweep, or go home early. The people who kept working, were 'dedicated employees' and were praised.

The people who worked hard were punished. The people who milked the clock, and dragged out a hour job, for 3 hours, were praised.

Thus, every time they hired on new people, in a matter of weeks, they would end up slow, clock milking people, and then we couldn't figure out why stuff didn't get done.

Now what is my point?

People adapt the incentives you create for them. Moralizing, and pronouncing judgement on them, doesn't work. And if you replace them, they new ones end up just like the old ones, because the incentives haven't changed.

If you adopted a new policy, that every single cop that every lied, was fired.... first cops would stop policing, just like in Chicago. Then the new cops, after you stopped firing them, would end up just like the old cops.

Why? Because the incentives haven't changed. Until you change the system, so the police don't have to lie, to capture bad guys.... they are going to keep lying. Or.... they are going to stop catching bad guys.

Now we could argue about those laws that protect criminals, supposedly protecting all of us... and yeah, I disagree with you on that, in a large number of ways. But.... it actually doesn't matter to this discussion.

Because even if you were right.... that still doesn't solve the problem. The police are still going to lie, as long as the laws make it the only way to stop bad guys. Or..... again... the police will simply stop enforcing the law, and we can all live in Chicago like situation across the country.

 

[Andylusion]

Excellent article in the link below on exactly how cops get away with and are encouraged to lie.

The second reason, is what the majority of those police beating videos are all about.

Police officers are not robots. They have emotions, like any other human being. In addition, they end up in high stress, high tension situations
Chicago is what happens when you attack the police. After those protests in Chicago, the police said... ok.... screw you. You want police that never hurt anybody? No problem. Now you don't have to worry about police stops and arrests and lying. Nope, because they practically stop no one.

See how well that's working out for you? You need to decide pretty quick what you want. Because ultimately you get what you want, then you don't like it. It's not the middle-class and upper class white areas where all the murdering is going on in Chicago. But you wanted the police to not shoot anybody... and they are not. You people are, but not the police. So much better isn't it?

Perhaps you can answer this question. Why is our option limited to either corrupt police or no police. Why is it out of the question that police do the job they were actually hired for the way they are paid to do it? You know, following the rules, obeying the law themselves, and oh yes, telling the truth? Why is it that we never wonder why we can't do it that way?

The answer to that is my example above. You can fire the employees until the end of time, and replace them over and over and over. Which is exactly what the company did.

But as long as you punish people for working fast, and thus running out of work, and rewarding people who work slow, yet always having work.... then people change the meet the incentives.

People always change to meet the incentives.

Police are no different. If a police officer finds a criminal, and because of some wacky law they violated, they'll have to let him go, he'll get in trouble, and the criminal will go free.

So he has two options. Not bother with it, and only show up at 911 calls after the bodies hit the floor.... or lie, and send the criminal to jail, and protect the innocent.

I'm just a messenger. I'm not a police officer. But I've been following this for 5 years now. This is what police are thinking. If you fire all of them, and hire new police, the new ones will think the same way.

We're already facing a nation wide drop in police recruitment. And no wonder. If they tell the truth, they get in trouble for letting criminals go. If they lie, they get in trouble for lying. If they don't do anything, like in Chicago, then you claim they are not doing their job.

What exactly do you expect? "Well in my mythical Utopia, they should be able to catch all the criminals no matter how many laws we restrict them with, and with perfect honesty!"

Not going to happen. How many decades have we been doing this? Hasn't happened yet. Won't any time soon.

If you have a solution, let's hear it. I'd love to hear it.

 

[SavannahMann]

Excellent article in the link below on exactly how cops get away with and are encouraged to lie.

All of this is entirely true.

I remember reading about why police lie, years ago. Nothing has changed. The problem is, you have to put yourself in the place of a police officer, to understand. From the outside, a brainless person would conclude all police are evil. That's not true.

There are two primary reasons police lie.

The first is that we have so many laws that protect the evil and criminal, from the good and just.

Imagine if you grow up wanting to serve the public by enforcing the law. You wanted to be the guy that got the bad guy, and protected the good. Then you join the police force, and every single bad guy you stop, gets off because of a technicality, and despite overwhelming evidence they were criminals doing wrong, they were released back into the public.

The police as a group, see the illegal search and seizure laws, is immoral and unjust. So do I by the way. Maybe police officers should demoted, or suspended, or even fired, for illegal search and seizure... but no matter what, a criminal should not be released over it. If you find clear proof of crime, the criminal should be punished, no matter what the police did wrong.

As a result of this, police have no problem whatsoever with lying, to make sure the criminal punished, and justice is served. So no doubt, police lie all the time on this angle.

To think about it another way, what is the point of even being a police officer, if you can't stop the criminals? Police see their job as pointless, if they don't lie to catch the criminals.

The solution to this problem, is to change the laws, so that criminals are not released simply because a police officer didn't have a reason to look in the window and see the gun.

The second reason, is what the majority of those police beating videos are all about.

Police officers are not robots. They have emotions, like any other human being. In addition, they end up in high stress, high tension situations, where they have a massive Adrenalin rush.

Some of the videos show the end of fight or chase, where the criminal puts his hands up, and goes face down on the ground. What you missed, was where he fought with the police officer to break free, and ran 15 blocks to escape arrest.

By the time the criminal gives up, the police officer is already on an Adrenalin buzz, and mad as crap at this guy. Then you think the police officer should handle him with kid gloves?

No, not happening. And it shouldn't happen honestly. You taunt the police, fight with the police, and run from the police, you deserve having your face smashed in. Don't do that. Do not provoke police, don't fight with police, and don't run from police.

Then if you are beaten, I'll accept it was wrong. But up till then, no. You are criminal running from, taunting, and fighting with police. You deserve being shot. Anyone that does that, deserves to be shot. Police are the authority, and you need to either respect that, or stop crying about what happens.

Lastly, there are bad police officers, just like there are bad people in any group.

But even if there are, in this video you posted, the guy had a gun. That to me, is the end of the story. Unless he was following the gun laws, and was legally allowed to conceal and carry.... he's a criminal. I don't care what the police did.

You follow the laws first. You do YOUR part. Then when you have done your part, then I'll complain about the cops. But as long as you are a criminal, and a supporter of criminals.... yeah this is going to keep happening, because we don't care what the cops do, when you are a criminal. Stop being a criminal. Then we'll talk.

And by the way.... if you push this? If you really push this.... then you'll end up with Chicago. Police will pull back from those areas, and the criminals you have been defending all this time, will rape murder and steal everything in your area, and you only have yourself to blame.

Chicago is what happens when you attack the police. After those protests in Chicago, the police said... ok.... screw you. You want police that never hurt anybody? No problem. Now you don't have to worry about police stops and arrests and lying. Nope, because they practically stop no one.

See how well that's working out for you? You need to decide pretty quick what you want. Because ultimately you get what you want, then you don't like it. It's not the middle-class and upper class white areas where all the murdering is going on in Chicago. But you wanted the police to not shoot anybody... and they are not. You people are, but not the police. So much better isn't it?

There are so many problems with your arguments that I honestly am having trouble deciding where to begin.

Those silly laws that you argue are designed to protect the evil and criminal from the good and just. Those laws are designed to protect the rights of everyone. I notice that the Police themselves take full advantage of those laws, and many that are not available for the average citizen, when they are accused of a crime. The first thing you have to do is understand why the Civil Rights were codified into the Bill of Rights in the first place. The former colonists were not about to let the abuses of the citizens at the hands of the British Authorities continue under new management. They wrote those protections so that the onus of convicting a criminal fell onto the State. It created the phrase of innocent until proven guilty.

Finding reasons to throw people in prison for some perceived crime against the crown was no problem for the British authorities in the Colonies. Imagine Extraordinary Rendition writ even larger.

The police in that first scenario aren't the forces of good and Justice. They are merely faces of criminals. If you have to lie to prove your case, you did it wrong. Because lying under oath is called Perjury. If you have to Perjur yourself to get the conviction, you are a felon, a criminal yourself.

We don't let a baseball player use sandpaper to scuff up the ball. We don't let a batter put cork in the bat. We throw them out of the game if they are caught cheating. Yet you lionize the police for cheating. The baseball player cheating wants to win, and so does the cop. The big difference is that a baseball team that loses because the other side cheated doesn't go to prison.

If a Police Officer lies under oath even once, he is a criminal. Just as a bank robber is a criminal for robbing one bank. If you claim you have to become a criminal, to catch a criminal, than we have to competing gangs of criminals each trying for control.

I'm not trying to argue with you about if you think the police should, or shouldn't lie. Nor am I arguing about I think it's ok.

Regardless of whether you think a police officer lying is a criminal or not... They are all..... ALL.... going to continue to do it, forever.... as long as the current system of laws is the way that it is.

We can argue they should not lie.... I agree they should not lie.

That's great. We agreed. Wonderful. Has that improved anything? No. Nothing has changed. Great, we agreed lying is bad, and that changed nothing, and improve nothing, but we did agree on what changed nothing.

Do you want to solve this problem, or just make a moral statement?

Because until you change the incentives that are causing the resulting action, the action will continue.

And if you simply start punishing, or firing the police that engage in this action, the result will be Chicago. That's exactly what happened. The police got in trouble, and said screw this, we'll only show up when you call 911, which is long after the bodies hit the floor. Hey no one is lying!

Let me attempt to give a comparison. Something I'm dealing with right now.

So I was trying to work with management, about a labor problem. They have more than enough labor to do the work given, but they keep barely scraping by.

They would fire a bunch, and hire replacements, and for a short time they would work hard, and then over a few weeks, soon they were barely working, just like the people they fired.

Now the default answer from manage was, they were lazy, bad employees, so they fired them and got new ones.

So I started observing the situation, and noticed that when people worked really really hard, they would complete all their work, and have nothing to do. People who sat around, and worked as slow as possible, of course they always had work to do.

Well when the manager came out, who got in trouble, and who was praised and rewarded? The people who were done, were told to sweep, or go home early. The people who kept working, were 'dedicated employees' and were praised.

The people who worked hard were punished. The people who milked the clock, and dragged out a hour job, for 3 hours, were praised.

Thus, every time they hired on new people, in a matter of weeks, they would end up slow, clock milking people, and then we couldn't figure out why stuff didn't get done.

Now what is my point?

People adapt the incentives you create for them. Moralizing, and pronouncing judgement on them, doesn't work. And if you replace them, they new ones end up just like the old ones, because the incentives haven't changed.

If you adopted a new policy, that every single cop that every lied, was fired.... first cops would stop policing, just like in Chicago. Then the new cops, after you stopped firing them, would end up just like the old cops.

Why? Because the incentives haven't changed. Until you change the system, so the police don't have to lie, to capture bad guys.... they are going to keep lying. Or.... they are going to stop catching bad guys.

Now we could argue about those laws that protect criminals, supposedly protecting all of us... and yeah, I disagree with you on that, in a large number of ways. But.... it actually doesn't matter to this discussion.

Because even if you were right.... that still doesn't solve the problem. The police are still going to lie, as long as the laws make it the only way to stop bad guys. Or..... again... the police will simply stop enforcing the law, and we can all live in Chicago like situation across the country.

So you choose one criminal gang over another. Because that is all they are. Sadly, they could do the job the right way but they don't.

In the 1950's and 1960's the police complained that prohibitions on them beating a confession out of people would make it impossible to get the bad guys. Then the Miranda decision and the police complained again that this would make it impossible to get the bad guys.

Neither prediction was true. I don't know if you support those ideas of police work. The beating of a person until they confess. I know you support denial of the civil rights we fought a war to get.

When I was a boy in California there was a case that comes to mind. The police kicked in a door and found drugs inside a house. They didn't have a warrant. The defense attorney read a paper about the rights of a citizen. The Judge interrupted him and said that everyone knew the rights of a citizen. The lawyer said that these rights he was reading were from the Soviet Constitution. The only difference between our courts and theirs was the Judge and his willingness to uphold those rights. The KGB regularly did what the LAPD had done.

The police spend months on a case to identify child predators online. They have video available for most instances of crimes these days.



The man they caught was a baddie. A man who had abused his wife. A man who was violating a restraining order. Good job in getting there to arrest him. Then the case goes away. Sending the dog on a man who is cooperating and complying is inexcusable. Planting the drugs is just stupid. The man almost certainly went free on everything. As he should.

I've had a theory for a while. Cops are people who were picked on in high school. It has affected them. Deeply.

In the military we used to say the maximum effective range of an excuse is zero. All of the bullshit you are slinging is one excuse after another. The police don't want to do the job right so they aren't going to. That's fine with you. Tough job? Lots of people have tough jobs and we don't excuse behavior outside the norm from them.

So let me ask you this. Where do we draw the line? When does the behavior become unacceptable? If lying is okay is planting evidence? How about just walking into a house and looking for evidence? Why bother with a warrant? How about encouraging someone to confess? Killing unarmed people? Beating someone after they surrender? Where do we draw the line?

That's the problem you ignore with your defense of the indefensible. Are cops who rede favors to let a criminal go doing a good job? Coercion for sex or money in some cases. Does that cross the line?

When you accept some criminal behavior you have to have something that is too far don't you?

 

[airplanemechanic]

The problem is, there is a tolerance for crooked cops. If a cop is found to be crooked, just losing the badge isn't enough. There should be an automatic life sentence for any cop breaking a law. If you are law enforcement and you break a law (a felony law, not running a red light) and you are convicted in a court of law and you are a LEO, automatic life sentence.

Such a simple and guaranteed sentence for crooked cops might, just might, keep them from going rogue. If it doesn't and they are caught, they will be dealt with swiftly in prison as cops are only hated in prison less than pedophiles.

When you have the power to ruin someones life by placing them in handcuffs you are sworn to up hold the law. There is no excuse for criminal behavior as a cop. Punishment should be much more than for an average citizen with no right to arrest.

 

[waltky]

Uncle Ferd says, "Yeah...

... dey lie alla time...

... onna Major Crimes TV show."

 

[SavannahMann]

Uncle Ferd says, "Yeah...

... dey lie alla time...

... onna Major Crimes TV show."

Quite often in real life too. One poll found the police lying in 20% of the cases. One in five.

 

[MarcATL]

Excellent article in the link below on exactly how cops get away with and are encouraged to lie.

All of this is entirely true.

I remember reading about why police lie, years ago. Nothing has changed. The problem is, you have to put yourself in the place of a police officer, to understand. From the outside, a brainless person would conclude all police are evil. That's not true.

There are two primary reasons police lie.

The first is that we have so many laws that protect the evil and criminal, from the good and just.

Imagine if you grow up wanting to serve the public by enforcing the law. You wanted to be the guy that got the bad guy, and protected the good. Then you join the police force, and every single bad guy you stop, gets off because of a technicality, and despite overwhelming evidence they were criminals doing wrong, they were released back into the public.

The police as a group, see the illegal search and seizure laws, is immoral and unjust. So do I by the way. Maybe police officers should demoted, or suspended, or even fired, for illegal search and seizure... but no matter what, a criminal should not be released over it. If you find clear proof of crime, the criminal should be punished, no matter what the police did wrong.

As a result of this, police have no problem whatsoever with lying, to make sure the criminal punished, and justice is served. So no doubt, police lie all the time on this angle.

To think about it another way, what is the point of even being a police officer, if you can't stop the criminals? Police see their job as pointless, if they don't lie to catch the criminals.

The solution to this problem, is to change the laws, so that criminals are not released simply because a police officer didn't have a reason to look in the window and see the gun.

The second reason, is what the majority of those police beating videos are all about.

Police officers are not robots. They have emotions, like any other human being. In addition, they end up in high stress, high tension situations, where they have a massive Adrenalin rush.

Some of the videos show the end of fight or chase, where the criminal puts his hands up, and goes face down on the ground. What you missed, was where he fought with the police officer to break free, and ran 15 blocks to escape arrest.

By the time the criminal gives up, the police officer is already on an Adrenalin buzz, and mad as crap at this guy. Then you think the police officer should handle him with kid gloves?

No, not happening. And it shouldn't happen honestly. You taunt the police, fight with the police, and run from the police, you deserve having your face smashed in. Don't do that. Do not provoke police, don't fight with police, and don't run from police.

Then if you are beaten, I'll accept it was wrong. But up till then, no. You are criminal running from, taunting, and fighting with police. You deserve being shot. Anyone that does that, deserves to be shot. Police are the authority, and you need to either respect that, or stop crying about what happens.

Lastly, there are bad police officers, just like there are bad people in any group.

But even if there are, in this video you posted, the guy had a gun. That to me, is the end of the story. Unless he was following the gun laws, and was legally allowed to conceal and carry.... he's a criminal. I don't care what the police did.

You follow the laws first. You do YOUR part. Then when you have done your part, then I'll complain about the cops. But as long as you are a criminal, and a supporter of criminals.... yeah this is going to keep happening, because we don't care what the cops do, when you are a criminal. Stop being a criminal. Then we'll talk.

And by the way.... if you push this? If you really push this.... then you'll end up with Chicago. Police will pull back from those areas, and the criminals you have been defending all this time, will rape murder and steal everything in your area, and you only have yourself to blame.

Chicago is what happens when you attack the police. After those protests in Chicago, the police said... ok.... screw you. You want police that never hurt anybody? No problem. Now you don't have to worry about police stops and arrests and lying. Nope, because they practically stop no one.

See how well that's working out for you? You need to decide pretty quick what you want. Because ultimately you get what you want, then you don't like it. It's not the middle-class and upper class white areas where all the murdering is going on in Chicago. But you wanted the police to not shoot anybody... and they are not. You people are, but not the police. So much better isn't it?

So it's either one extreme or the other...is that it?

 

[Andylusion]

The problem is, there is a tolerance for crooked cops. If a cop is found to be crooked, just losing the badge isn't enough. There should be an automatic life sentence for any cop breaking a law. If you are law enforcement and you break a law (a felony law, not running a red light) and you are convicted in a court of law and you are a LEO, automatic life sentence.

Such a simple and guaranteed sentence for crooked cops might, just might, keep them from going rogue. If it doesn't and they are caught, they will be dealt with swiftly in prison as cops are only hated in prison less than pedophiles.

When you have the power to ruin someones life by placing them in handcuffs you are sworn to up hold the law. There is no excuse for criminal behavior as a cop. Punishment should be much more than for an average citizen with no right to arrest.

Give me an example.

 

[Andylusion]

Excellent article in the link below on exactly how cops get away with and are encouraged to lie.

All of this is entirely true.

I remember reading about why police lie, years ago. Nothing has changed. The problem is, you have to put yourself in the place of a police officer, to understand. From the outside, a brainless person would conclude all police are evil. That's not true.

There are two primary reasons police lie.

The first is that we have so many laws that protect the evil and criminal, from the good and just.

Imagine if you grow up wanting to serve the public by enforcing the law. You wanted to be the guy that got the bad guy, and protected the good. Then you join the police force, and every single bad guy you stop, gets off because of a technicality, and despite overwhelming evidence they were criminals doing wrong, they were released back into the public.

The police as a group, see the illegal search and seizure laws, is immoral and unjust. So do I by the way. Maybe police officers should demoted, or suspended, or even fired, for illegal search and seizure... but no matter what, a criminal should not be released over it. If you find clear proof of crime, the criminal should be punished, no matter what the police did wrong.

As a result of this, police have no problem whatsoever with lying, to make sure the criminal punished, and justice is served. So no doubt, police lie all the time on this angle.

To think about it another way, what is the point of even being a police officer, if you can't stop the criminals? Police see their job as pointless, if they don't lie to catch the criminals.

The solution to this problem, is to change the laws, so that criminals are not released simply because a police officer didn't have a reason to look in the window and see the gun.

The second reason, is what the majority of those police beating videos are all about.

Police officers are not robots. They have emotions, like any other human being. In addition, they end up in high stress, high tension situations, where they have a massive Adrenalin rush.

Some of the videos show the end of fight or chase, where the criminal puts his hands up, and goes face down on the ground. What you missed, was where he fought with the police officer to break free, and ran 15 blocks to escape arrest.

By the time the criminal gives up, the police officer is already on an Adrenalin buzz, and mad as crap at this guy. Then you think the police officer should handle him with kid gloves?

No, not happening. And it shouldn't happen honestly. You taunt the police, fight with the police, and run from the police, you deserve having your face smashed in. Don't do that. Do not provoke police, don't fight with police, and don't run from police.

Then if you are beaten, I'll accept it was wrong. But up till then, no. You are criminal running from, taunting, and fighting with police. You deserve being shot. Anyone that does that, deserves to be shot. Police are the authority, and you need to either respect that, or stop crying about what happens.

Lastly, there are bad police officers, just like there are bad people in any group.

But even if there are, in this video you posted, the guy had a gun. That to me, is the end of the story. Unless he was following the gun laws, and was legally allowed to conceal and carry.... he's a criminal. I don't care what the police did.

You follow the laws first. You do YOUR part. Then when you have done your part, then I'll complain about the cops. But as long as you are a criminal, and a supporter of criminals.... yeah this is going to keep happening, because we don't care what the cops do, when you are a criminal. Stop being a criminal. Then we'll talk.

And by the way.... if you push this? If you really push this.... then you'll end up with Chicago. Police will pull back from those areas, and the criminals you have been defending all this time, will rape murder and steal everything in your area, and you only have yourself to blame.

Chicago is what happens when you attack the police. After those protests in Chicago, the police said... ok.... screw you. You want police that never hurt anybody? No problem. Now you don't have to worry about police stops and arrests and lying. Nope, because they practically stop no one.

See how well that's working out for you? You need to decide pretty quick what you want. Because ultimately you get what you want, then you don't like it. It's not the middle-class and upper class white areas where all the murdering is going on in Chicago. But you wanted the police to not shoot anybody... and they are not. You people are, but not the police. So much better isn't it?

So it's either one extreme or the other...is that it?

Well you tell me? How's things in Chicago these days?

There is no system where you can have police that are restricted in every aspect of their job.... and yet still are effective in stopping criminals.

Honestly, that's my answer to you. I stand by the evidence that we see right now. You tell me if my claim is right based on the evidence.

I just read where the murder rate in Baton Rouge is going up, because after the BLM protests, they pushed down a bunch of new more restrictive regulations on officers... and just like Chicago, the officers are simply not stopping people.

Again..... this is no surprise to me. I predicted it. I don't know what you expected?

It's just like this video here. The police officer caught some people clearly breaking the law. No one questions that. He caught a guy with a gun. No one questions that.

But instead of being upset at a criminal with a gun, you are upset with the police officer.

Well if the police had all done the same thing that Chicago and Baton Rouge police are doing, ignored them all, and the guy with the gun had shot some guy that won money from him on the street.....

Then you'd be bitching the police should have done something to stop it.

But sorry.... that's not happening. The police are not going to stop people, if they are going get in trouble every time they find a criminal.

They'll just do what they are doing in Chicago and Baton Rouge, and just wait for the 911 call.

Again if you have the magic solution where you can punish police, and have harmless law enforcement, I'd love to hear you solution. I am completely open to any suggestion you have.

But having looked around the world today, I don't see this care-bear cuddly law enforcement system, where police are punished as much as the criminals. I've seen police in Russia beat the crap out of people. I've seen the police in Nigeria, just smash people in the mud. So where is this happy cuddly never-violent police force?

 

[Andylusion]

Uncle Ferd says, "Yeah...

... dey lie alla time...

... onna Major Crimes TV show."

Quite often in real life too. One poll found the police lying in 20% of the cases. One in five.

It's much higher than that.
If they don't lie, the criminal goes free, and they get in trouble. The laws that restrict every aspect of a police officers duty, are so tight, that at this point if you don't lie, then you are not effective.

So it's much higher than 20% of cases.

 

[Andylusion]

Excellent article in the link below on exactly how cops get away with and are encouraged to lie.

All of this is entirely true.

I remember reading about why police lie, years ago. Nothing has changed. The problem is, you have to put yourself in the place of a police officer, to understand. From the outside, a brainless person would conclude all police are evil. That's not true.

There are two primary reasons police lie.

The first is that we have so many laws that protect the evil and criminal, from the good and just.

Imagine if you grow up wanting to serve the public by enforcing the law. You wanted to be the guy that got the bad guy, and protected the good. Then you join the police force, and every single bad guy you stop, gets off because of a technicality, and despite overwhelming evidence they were criminals doing wrong, they were released back into the public.

The police as a group, see the illegal search and seizure laws, is immoral and unjust. So do I by the way. Maybe police officers should demoted, or suspended, or even fired, for illegal search and seizure... but no matter what, a criminal should not be released over it. If you find clear proof of crime, the criminal should be punished, no matter what the police did wrong.

As a result of this, police have no problem whatsoever with lying, to make sure the criminal punished, and justice is served. So no doubt, police lie all the time on this angle.

To think about it another way, what is the point of even being a police officer, if you can't stop the criminals? Police see their job as pointless, if they don't lie to catch the criminals.

The solution to this problem, is to change the laws, so that criminals are not released simply because a police officer didn't have a reason to look in the window and see the gun.

The second reason, is what the majority of those police beating videos are all about.

Police officers are not robots. They have emotions, like any other human being. In addition, they end up in high stress, high tension situations, where they have a massive Adrenalin rush.

Some of the videos show the end of fight or chase, where the criminal puts his hands up, and goes face down on the ground. What you missed, was where he fought with the police officer to break free, and ran 15 blocks to escape arrest.

By the time the criminal gives up, the police officer is already on an Adrenalin buzz, and mad as crap at this guy. Then you think the police officer should handle him with kid gloves?

No, not happening. And it shouldn't happen honestly. You taunt the police, fight with the police, and run from the police, you deserve having your face smashed in. Don't do that. Do not provoke police, don't fight with police, and don't run from police.

Then if you are beaten, I'll accept it was wrong. But up till then, no. You are criminal running from, taunting, and fighting with police. You deserve being shot. Anyone that does that, deserves to be shot. Police are the authority, and you need to either respect that, or stop crying about what happens.

Lastly, there are bad police officers, just like there are bad people in any group.

But even if there are, in this video you posted, the guy had a gun. That to me, is the end of the story. Unless he was following the gun laws, and was legally allowed to conceal and carry.... he's a criminal. I don't care what the police did.

You follow the laws first. You do YOUR part. Then when you have done your part, then I'll complain about the cops. But as long as you are a criminal, and a supporter of criminals.... yeah this is going to keep happening, because we don't care what the cops do, when you are a criminal. Stop being a criminal. Then we'll talk.

And by the way.... if you push this? If you really push this.... then you'll end up with Chicago. Police will pull back from those areas, and the criminals you have been defending all this time, will rape murder and steal everything in your area, and you only have yourself to blame.

Chicago is what happens when you attack the police. After those protests in Chicago, the police said... ok.... screw you. You want police that never hurt anybody? No problem. Now you don't have to worry about police stops and arrests and lying. Nope, because they practically stop no one.

See how well that's working out for you? You need to decide pretty quick what you want. Because ultimately you get what you want, then you don't like it. It's not the middle-class and upper class white areas where all the murdering is going on in Chicago. But you wanted the police to not shoot anybody... and they are not. You people are, but not the police. So much better isn't it?

There are so many problems with your arguments that I honestly am having trouble deciding where to begin.

Those silly laws that you argue are designed to protect the evil and criminal from the good and just. Those laws are designed to protect the rights of everyone. I notice that the Police themselves take full advantage of those laws, and many that are not available for the average citizen, when they are accused of a crime. The first thing you have to do is understand why the Civil Rights were codified into the Bill of Rights in the first place. The former colonists were not about to let the abuses of the citizens at the hands of the British Authorities continue under new management. They wrote those protections so that the onus of convicting a criminal fell onto the State. It created the phrase of innocent until proven guilty.

Finding reasons to throw people in prison for some perceived crime against the crown was no problem for the British authorities in the Colonies. Imagine Extraordinary Rendition writ even larger.

The police in that first scenario aren't the forces of good and Justice. They are merely faces of criminals. If you have to lie to prove your case, you did it wrong. Because lying under oath is called Perjury. If you have to Perjur yourself to get the conviction, you are a felon, a criminal yourself.

We don't let a baseball player use sandpaper to scuff up the ball. We don't let a batter put cork in the bat. We throw them out of the game if they are caught cheating. Yet you lionize the police for cheating. The baseball player cheating wants to win, and so does the cop. The big difference is that a baseball team that loses because the other side cheated doesn't go to prison.

If a Police Officer lies under oath even once, he is a criminal. Just as a bank robber is a criminal for robbing one bank. If you claim you have to become a criminal, to catch a criminal, than we have to competing gangs of criminals each trying for control.

I'm not trying to argue with you about if you think the police should, or shouldn't lie. Nor am I arguing about I think it's ok.

Regardless of whether you think a police officer lying is a criminal or not... They are all..... ALL.... going to continue to do it, forever.... as long as the current system of laws is the way that it is.

We can argue they should not lie.... I agree they should not lie.

That's great. We agreed. Wonderful. Has that improved anything? No. Nothing has changed. Great, we agreed lying is bad, and that changed nothing, and improve nothing, but we did agree on what changed nothing.

Do you want to solve this problem, or just make a moral statement?

Because until you change the incentives that are causing the resulting action, the action will continue.

And if you simply start punishing, or firing the police that engage in this action, the result will be Chicago. That's exactly what happened. The police got in trouble, and said screw this, we'll only show up when you call 911, which is long after the bodies hit the floor. Hey no one is lying!

Let me attempt to give a comparison. Something I'm dealing with right now.

So I was trying to work with management, about a labor problem. They have more than enough labor to do the work given, but they keep barely scraping by.

They would fire a bunch, and hire replacements, and for a short time they would work hard, and then over a few weeks, soon they were barely working, just like the people they fired.

Now the default answer from manage was, they were lazy, bad employees, so they fired them and got new ones.

So I started observing the situation, and noticed that when people worked really really hard, they would complete all their work, and have nothing to do. People who sat around, and worked as slow as possible, of course they always had work to do.

Well when the manager came out, who got in trouble, and who was praised and rewarded? The people who were done, were told to sweep, or go home early. The people who kept working, were 'dedicated employees' and were praised.

The people who worked hard were punished. The people who milked the clock, and dragged out a hour job, for 3 hours, were praised.

Thus, every time they hired on new people, in a matter of weeks, they would end up slow, clock milking people, and then we couldn't figure out why stuff didn't get done.

Now what is my point?

People adapt the incentives you create for them. Moralizing, and pronouncing judgement on them, doesn't work. And if you replace them, they new ones end up just like the old ones, because the incentives haven't changed.

If you adopted a new policy, that every single cop that every lied, was fired.... first cops would stop policing, just like in Chicago. Then the new cops, after you stopped firing them, would end up just like the old cops.

Why? Because the incentives haven't changed. Until you change the system, so the police don't have to lie, to capture bad guys.... they are going to keep lying. Or.... they are going to stop catching bad guys.

Now we could argue about those laws that protect criminals, supposedly protecting all of us... and yeah, I disagree with you on that, in a large number of ways. But.... it actually doesn't matter to this discussion.

Because even if you were right.... that still doesn't solve the problem. The police are still going to lie, as long as the laws make it the only way to stop bad guys. Or..... again... the police will simply stop enforcing the law, and we can all live in Chicago like situation across the country.

So you choose one criminal gang over another. Because that is all they are. Sadly, they could do the job the right way but they don't.

In the 1950's and 1960's the police complained that prohibitions on them beating a confession out of people would make it impossible to get the bad guys. Then the Miranda decision and the police complained again that this would make it impossible to get the bad guys.

Neither prediction was true. I don't know if you support those ideas of police work. The beating of a person until they confess. I know you support denial of the civil rights we fought a war to get.

When I was a boy in California there was a case that comes to mind. The police kicked in a door and found drugs inside a house. They didn't have a warrant. The defense attorney read a paper about the rights of a citizen. The Judge interrupted him and said that everyone knew the rights of a citizen. The lawyer said that these rights he was reading were from the Soviet Constitution. The only difference between our courts and theirs was the Judge and his willingness to uphold those rights. The KGB regularly did what the LAPD had done.

The police spend months on a case to identify child predators online. They have video available for most instances of crimes these days.



The man they caught was a baddie. A man who had abused his wife. A man who was violating a restraining order. Good job in getting there to arrest him. Then the case goes away. Sending the dog on a man who is cooperating and complying is inexcusable. Planting the drugs is just stupid. The man almost certainly went free on everything. As he should.

I've had a theory for a while. Cops are people who were picked on in high school. It has affected them. Deeply.

In the military we used to say the maximum effective range of an excuse is zero. All of the bullshit you are slinging is one excuse after another. The police don't want to do the job right so they aren't going to. That's fine with you. Tough job? Lots of people have tough jobs and we don't excuse behavior outside the norm from them.

So let me ask you this. Where do we draw the line? When does the behavior become unacceptable? If lying is okay is planting evidence? How about just walking into a house and looking for evidence? Why bother with a warrant? How about encouraging someone to confess? Killing unarmed people? Beating someone after they surrender? Where do we draw the line?

That's the problem you ignore with your defense of the indefensible. Are cops who rede favors to let a criminal go doing a good job? Coercion for sex or money in some cases. Does that cross the line?

When you accept some criminal behavior you have to have something that is too far don't you?

You are not listening to what I'm saying. and if you are just going to ignore what I'm saying, and put words in my mouth I didn't say, then you need to find someone else to talk to.

Sorry. I don't have time for such immature debate tactics, especially when I know if I was putting words in your mouth and claiming you supported such and such, when you never said that, you would have a melt down over it.

Have a good one.

 

[SavannahMann]

Excellent article in the link below on exactly how cops get away with and are encouraged to lie.

All of this is entirely true.

I remember reading about why police lie, years ago. Nothing has changed. The problem is, you have to put yourself in the place of a police officer, to understand. From the outside, a brainless person would conclude all police are evil. That's not true.

There are two primary reasons police lie.

The first is that we have so many laws that protect the evil and criminal, from the good and just.

Imagine if you grow up wanting to serve the public by enforcing the law. You wanted to be the guy that got the bad guy, and protected the good. Then you join the police force, and every single bad guy you stop, gets off because of a technicality, and despite overwhelming evidence they were criminals doing wrong, they were released back into the public.

The police as a group, see the illegal search and seizure laws, is immoral and unjust. So do I by the way. Maybe police officers should demoted, or suspended, or even fired, for illegal search and seizure... but no matter what, a criminal should not be released over it. If you find clear proof of crime, the criminal should be punished, no matter what the police did wrong.

As a result of this, police have no problem whatsoever with lying, to make sure the criminal punished, and justice is served. So no doubt, police lie all the time on this angle.

To think about it another way, what is the point of even being a police officer, if you can't stop the criminals? Police see their job as pointless, if they don't lie to catch the criminals.

The solution to this problem, is to change the laws, so that criminals are not released simply because a police officer didn't have a reason to look in the window and see the gun.

The second reason, is what the majority of those police beating videos are all about.

Police officers are not robots. They have emotions, like any other human being. In addition, they end up in high stress, high tension situations, where they have a massive Adrenalin rush.

Some of the videos show the end of fight or chase, where the criminal puts his hands up, and goes face down on the ground. What you missed, was where he fought with the police officer to break free, and ran 15 blocks to escape arrest.

By the time the criminal gives up, the police officer is already on an Adrenalin buzz, and mad as crap at this guy. Then you think the police officer should handle him with kid gloves?

No, not happening. And it shouldn't happen honestly. You taunt the police, fight with the police, and run from the police, you deserve having your face smashed in. Don't do that. Do not provoke police, don't fight with police, and don't run from police.

Then if you are beaten, I'll accept it was wrong. But up till then, no. You are criminal running from, taunting, and fighting with police. You deserve being shot. Anyone that does that, deserves to be shot. Police are the authority, and you need to either respect that, or stop crying about what happens.

Lastly, there are bad police officers, just like there are bad people in any group.

But even if there are, in this video you posted, the guy had a gun. That to me, is the end of the story. Unless he was following the gun laws, and was legally allowed to conceal and carry.... he's a criminal. I don't care what the police did.

You follow the laws first. You do YOUR part. Then when you have done your part, then I'll complain about the cops. But as long as you are a criminal, and a supporter of criminals.... yeah this is going to keep happening, because we don't care what the cops do, when you are a criminal. Stop being a criminal. Then we'll talk.

And by the way.... if you push this? If you really push this.... then you'll end up with Chicago. Police will pull back from those areas, and the criminals you have been defending all this time, will rape murder and steal everything in your area, and you only have yourself to blame.

Chicago is what happens when you attack the police. After those protests in Chicago, the police said... ok.... screw you. You want police that never hurt anybody? No problem. Now you don't have to worry about police stops and arrests and lying. Nope, because they practically stop no one.

See how well that's working out for you? You need to decide pretty quick what you want. Because ultimately you get what you want, then you don't like it. It's not the middle-class and upper class white areas where all the murdering is going on in Chicago. But you wanted the police to not shoot anybody... and they are not. You people are, but not the police. So much better isn't it?

There are so many problems with your arguments that I honestly am having trouble deciding where to begin.

Those silly laws that you argue are designed to protect the evil and criminal from the good and just. Those laws are designed to protect the rights of everyone. I notice that the Police themselves take full advantage of those laws, and many that are not available for the average citizen, when they are accused of a crime. The first thing you have to do is understand why the Civil Rights were codified into the Bill of Rights in the first place. The former colonists were not about to let the abuses of the citizens at the hands of the British Authorities continue under new management. They wrote those protections so that the onus of convicting a criminal fell onto the State. It created the phrase of innocent until proven guilty.

Finding reasons to throw people in prison for some perceived crime against the crown was no problem for the British authorities in the Colonies. Imagine Extraordinary Rendition writ even larger.

The police in that first scenario aren't the forces of good and Justice. They are merely faces of criminals. If you have to lie to prove your case, you did it wrong. Because lying under oath is called Perjury. If you have to Perjur yourself to get the conviction, you are a felon, a criminal yourself.

We don't let a baseball player use sandpaper to scuff up the ball. We don't let a batter put cork in the bat. We throw them out of the game if they are caught cheating. Yet you lionize the police for cheating. The baseball player cheating wants to win, and so does the cop. The big difference is that a baseball team that loses because the other side cheated doesn't go to prison.

If a Police Officer lies under oath even once, he is a criminal. Just as a bank robber is a criminal for robbing one bank. If you claim you have to become a criminal, to catch a criminal, than we have to competing gangs of criminals each trying for control.

I'm not trying to argue with you about if you think the police should, or shouldn't lie. Nor am I arguing about I think it's ok.

Regardless of whether you think a police officer lying is a criminal or not... They are all..... ALL.... going to continue to do it, forever.... as long as the current system of laws is the way that it is.

We can argue they should not lie.... I agree they should not lie.

That's great. We agreed. Wonderful. Has that improved anything? No. Nothing has changed. Great, we agreed lying is bad, and that changed nothing, and improve nothing, but we did agree on what changed nothing.

Do you want to solve this problem, or just make a moral statement?

Because until you change the incentives that are causing the resulting action, the action will continue.

And if you simply start punishing, or firing the police that engage in this action, the result will be Chicago. That's exactly what happened. The police got in trouble, and said screw this, we'll only show up when you call 911, which is long after the bodies hit the floor. Hey no one is lying!

Let me attempt to give a comparison. Something I'm dealing with right now.

So I was trying to work with management, about a labor problem. They have more than enough labor to do the work given, but they keep barely scraping by.

They would fire a bunch, and hire replacements, and for a short time they would work hard, and then over a few weeks, soon they were barely working, just like the people they fired.

Now the default answer from manage was, they were lazy, bad employees, so they fired them and got new ones.

So I started observing the situation, and noticed that when people worked really really hard, they would complete all their work, and have nothing to do. People who sat around, and worked as slow as possible, of course they always had work to do.

Well when the manager came out, who got in trouble, and who was praised and rewarded? The people who were done, were told to sweep, or go home early. The people who kept working, were 'dedicated employees' and were praised.

The people who worked hard were punished. The people who milked the clock, and dragged out a hour job, for 3 hours, were praised.

Thus, every time they hired on new people, in a matter of weeks, they would end up slow, clock milking people, and then we couldn't figure out why stuff didn't get done.

Now what is my point?

People adapt the incentives you create for them. Moralizing, and pronouncing judgement on them, doesn't work. And if you replace them, they new ones end up just like the old ones, because the incentives haven't changed.

If you adopted a new policy, that every single cop that every lied, was fired.... first cops would stop policing, just like in Chicago. Then the new cops, after you stopped firing them, would end up just like the old cops.

Why? Because the incentives haven't changed. Until you change the system, so the police don't have to lie, to capture bad guys.... they are going to keep lying. Or.... they are going to stop catching bad guys.

Now we could argue about those laws that protect criminals, supposedly protecting all of us... and yeah, I disagree with you on that, in a large number of ways. But.... it actually doesn't matter to this discussion.

Because even if you were right.... that still doesn't solve the problem. The police are still going to lie, as long as the laws make it the only way to stop bad guys. Or..... again... the police will simply stop enforcing the law, and we can all live in Chicago like situation across the country.

So you choose one criminal gang over another. Because that is all they are. Sadly, they could do the job the right way but they don't.

In the 1950's and 1960's the police complained that prohibitions on them beating a confession out of people would make it impossible to get the bad guys. Then the Miranda decision and the police complained again that this would make it impossible to get the bad guys.

Neither prediction was true. I don't know if you support those ideas of police work. The beating of a person until they confess. I know you support denial of the civil rights we fought a war to get.

When I was a boy in California there was a case that comes to mind. The police kicked in a door and found drugs inside a house. They didn't have a warrant. The defense attorney read a paper about the rights of a citizen. The Judge interrupted him and said that everyone knew the rights of a citizen. The lawyer said that these rights he was reading were from the Soviet Constitution. The only difference between our courts and theirs was the Judge and his willingness to uphold those rights. The KGB regularly did what the LAPD had done.

The police spend months on a case to identify child predators online. They have video available for most instances of crimes these days.



The man they caught was a baddie. A man who had abused his wife. A man who was violating a restraining order. Good job in getting there to arrest him. Then the case goes away. Sending the dog on a man who is cooperating and complying is inexcusable. Planting the drugs is just stupid. The man almost certainly went free on everything. As he should.

I've had a theory for a while. Cops are people who were picked on in high school. It has affected them. Deeply.

In the military we used to say the maximum effective range of an excuse is zero. All of the bullshit you are slinging is one excuse after another. The police don't want to do the job right so they aren't going to. That's fine with you. Tough job? Lots of people have tough jobs and we don't excuse behavior outside the norm from them.

So let me ask you this. Where do we draw the line? When does the behavior become unacceptable? If lying is okay is planting evidence? How about just walking into a house and looking for evidence? Why bother with a warrant? How about encouraging someone to confess? Killing unarmed people? Beating someone after they surrender? Where do we draw the line?

That's the problem you ignore with your defense of the indefensible. Are cops who rede favors to let a criminal go doing a good job? Coercion for sex or money in some cases. Does that cross the line?

When you accept some criminal behavior you have to have something that is too far don't you?

You are not listening to what I'm saying. and if you are just going to ignore what I'm saying, and put words in my mouth I didn't say, then you need to find someone else to talk to.

Sorry. I don't have time for such immature debate tactics, especially when I know if I was putting words in your mouth and claiming you supported such and such, when you never said that, you would have a melt down over it.

Have a good one.

I put nothing in your mouth. I asked questions. You support liars. Criminals who wear badges since we have laws prohibiting false testimony in court. In every state in this union perjury is a felony. The federal code has perjury as a felony. So they are criminals. Criminals by definition commit crimes.

I disagree. The police can do the job right. They choose not to the same way you choose to support them.

Police perjury: It's called 'testilying'

In that case the police lied about how the encounter happened. Stupid since they had video of it from their own cameras. But why not just do it right? Ask for the license and then ask the man to step out? The arrogant criminals enthralled by their own power didn't want to. Not that it was too difficult. It would have taken thirty seconds or less.

So I asked you what crimes were too much. If you accepted and supported felony perjury from the police where did you decide the cops were criminals? Was it cold blooded murder or something less?

If you read Serpico you know where I am going. The cops who were walking the beat considered it no big deal to get free meals. They didn't see anything wrong with taking a bribe to let a minor scofflaw off. They argued it wasn't like they were letting the guy get away with a felony. Later Serpico worked vice. The vice cops took bribes from gambling and prostitution. They argued that they weren't really doing anything wrong. It wasn't like they were taking bribes for drugs. That was dirty. But money for gambling and prostitution wasn't any big deal. Besides if they arrest this guy someone else will be doing it before they get him to the station and he will be bailed out before they are done with the reports.

When Serpico went to Narcotics he was told that the money was no big deal. No one forced people to buy drugs. They could say no and if they arrested this guy then someone else would be selling dope before they got to the station.

So I ask you this. What was wrong? Was it wrong to take free meals? Was it wrong to take a bribe for minor infractions of city codes? Was it wrong to take bribes to let Gambling and Prostitution continue? Was it wrong to take bribes for narcotics?

You admit the police are corrupt. You admit and accept that they lie, that is commit perjury, a felony. What crime is too much? Is planting evidence too much?

Where do you draw the line? What crime committed by your beloved badge wearing gangsters is unacceptable?

 

[fncceo]

I'm coming up on my 2nd year on the job since graduating police academy and I have to say. If find it highly amusing when non-cops try to generalize 800,000 sworn personnel and dissect their motivations with kiddie scissors.

It's a lot like listening to toddlers explain where babies come from.

 

[SavannahMann]

Excellent article in the link below on exactly how cops get away with and are encouraged to lie.

All of this is entirely true.

I remember reading about why police lie, years ago. Nothing has changed. The problem is, you have to put yourself in the place of a police officer, to understand. From the outside, a brainless person would conclude all police are evil. That's not true.

There are two primary reasons police lie.

The first is that we have so many laws that protect the evil and criminal, from the good and just.

Imagine if you grow up wanting to serve the public by enforcing the law. You wanted to be the guy that got the bad guy, and protected the good. Then you join the police force, and every single bad guy you stop, gets off because of a technicality, and despite overwhelming evidence they were criminals doing wrong, they were released back into the public.

The police as a group, see the illegal search and seizure laws, is immoral and unjust. So do I by the way. Maybe police officers should demoted, or suspended, or even fired, for illegal search and seizure... but no matter what, a criminal should not be released over it. If you find clear proof of crime, the criminal should be punished, no matter what the police did wrong.

As a result of this, police have no problem whatsoever with lying, to make sure the criminal punished, and justice is served. So no doubt, police lie all the time on this angle.

To think about it another way, what is the point of even being a police officer, if you can't stop the criminals? Police see their job as pointless, if they don't lie to catch the criminals.

The solution to this problem, is to change the laws, so that criminals are not released simply because a police officer didn't have a reason to look in the window and see the gun.

The second reason, is what the majority of those police beating videos are all about.

Police officers are not robots. They have emotions, like any other human being. In addition, they end up in high stress, high tension situations, where they have a massive Adrenalin rush.

Some of the videos show the end of fight or chase, where the criminal puts his hands up, and goes face down on the ground. What you missed, was where he fought with the police officer to break free, and ran 15 blocks to escape arrest.

By the time the criminal gives up, the police officer is already on an Adrenalin buzz, and mad as crap at this guy. Then you think the police officer should handle him with kid gloves?

No, not happening. And it shouldn't happen honestly. You taunt the police, fight with the police, and run from the police, you deserve having your face smashed in. Don't do that. Do not provoke police, don't fight with police, and don't run from police.

Then if you are beaten, I'll accept it was wrong. But up till then, no. You are criminal running from, taunting, and fighting with police. You deserve being shot. Anyone that does that, deserves to be shot. Police are the authority, and you need to either respect that, or stop crying about what happens.

Lastly, there are bad police officers, just like there are bad people in any group.

But even if there are, in this video you posted, the guy had a gun. That to me, is the end of the story. Unless he was following the gun laws, and was legally allowed to conceal and carry.... he's a criminal. I don't care what the police did.

You follow the laws first. You do YOUR part. Then when you have done your part, then I'll complain about the cops. But as long as you are a criminal, and a supporter of criminals.... yeah this is going to keep happening, because we don't care what the cops do, when you are a criminal. Stop being a criminal. Then we'll talk.

And by the way.... if you push this? If you really push this.... then you'll end up with Chicago. Police will pull back from those areas, and the criminals you have been defending all this time, will rape murder and steal everything in your area, and you only have yourself to blame.

Chicago is what happens when you attack the police. After those protests in Chicago, the police said... ok.... screw you. You want police that never hurt anybody? No problem. Now you don't have to worry about police stops and arrests and lying. Nope, because they practically stop no one.

See how well that's working out for you? You need to decide pretty quick what you want. Because ultimately you get what you want, then you don't like it. It's not the middle-class and upper class white areas where all the murdering is going on in Chicago. But you wanted the police to not shoot anybody... and they are not. You people are, but not the police. So much better isn't it?

So it's either one extreme or the other...is that it?

Well you tell me? How's things in Chicago these days?

There is no system where you can have police that are restricted in every aspect of their job.... and yet still are effective in stopping criminals.

Honestly, that's my answer to you. I stand by the evidence that we see right now. You tell me if my claim is right based on the evidence.

I just read where the murder rate in Baton Rouge is going up, because after the BLM protests, they pushed down a bunch of new more restrictive regulations on officers... and just like Chicago, the officers are simply not stopping people.

Again..... this is no surprise to me. I predicted it. I don't know what you expected?

It's just like this video here. The police officer caught some people clearly breaking the law. No one questions that. He caught a guy with a gun. No one questions that.

But instead of being upset at a criminal with a gun, you are upset with the police officer.

Well if the police had all done the same thing that Chicago and Baton Rouge police are doing, ignored them all, and the guy with the gun had shot some guy that won money from him on the street.....

Then you'd be bitching the police should have done something to stop it.

But sorry.... that's not happening. The police are not going to stop people, if they are going get in trouble every time they find a criminal.

They'll just do what they are doing in Chicago and Baton Rouge, and just wait for the 911 call.

Again if you have the magic solution where you can punish police, and have harmless law enforcement, I'd love to hear you solution. I am completely open to any suggestion you have.

But having looked around the world today, I don't see this care-bear cuddly law enforcement system, where police are punished as much as the criminals. I've seen police in Russia beat the crap out of people. I've seen the police in Nigeria, just smash people in the mud. So where is this happy cuddly never-violent police force?

So now the standard is that our cops are not as brutal as the ones in Russia? Talk about settling for second best.