Before 1860 secession was considered to be constitutional

[candycorn]

They tried to get off the wagon once, moron.

If you don't like it, get the **** out of my country. That's your solution, isn't it?

Don't make me laugh (too late *****).

I'm quite happy with the Nation the way it is; we're getting more enlightened every day;

National Healthcare is being, at least, attempted to rectify costs that other advanced nations are not experiencing,

Two wars (one needless, and one that should have been over in 2006) are over for all intent and purposes.

Our President kept us out of other Iraq style mis-adventures that you morons were shouting for him to get involved in.

More and more states are recognizing marriage equality between same sex couples

The deficit is coming down, the economy is coming back and Mr. Obama is getting set to appoint new justices to the Supreme Court to cement the gains over the last 8 years.

Why would I leave? I like it here.

Now lets look at you;

A new complaint every day about something...
Sponsoring disolving of the nation you supposedly "love"...
Endless bitching, whining, empty threats, pathetic stances, revisionist history, and you're generally a zero balance human being.

You're the one that is catatonic....either shit or get off the pot. If you don't like it here and don't have the sack to do something about it...leave. If you want to do something about it, Fort Campbell is in Kentucky, grab Mudwhistle and the other rednecks here and take your chances with the 101st Airborne.

Good luck. Hope they televise it.

Morons like you have been whining for 50 years that the country is racist, sexist and homophobe. Look who your avatar is: the poster girl for the Democrat's propaganda war claiming the Republicans have a war on women. If Sandra Fluk doesn't like the way women are treated hear, she can take your advice and get the **** out. You can also take the same advice.

There's no natural limit to the hypocrisy of libturds.

I actually have avatars turned off. Ms. Fluke's image was put there just to piss morons like you off. Good to see it worked.

That you didn't address any of the points I brought up about you...lets go over them again:

Now lets look at you;

A new complaint every day about something...
Sponsoring disolving of the nation you supposedly "love"...
Endless bitching, whining, empty threats, pathetic stances, revisionist history, and you're generally a zero balance human being.

Care to address any of them? No? Because they're all true.

 

[BrianH]

Why can't states secede today?

Just because some states that seceded 150 years ago started a war with the U.S.?

I'm pretty sure if circumstances called for it a state could secede anytime now.

When did the seceeding states start a war? I was under the impression that a specific state, after seceeding, asked federal troops to leave the state seeing as how the state was no longer a member of the Union. The federal troops refused to leave after numerous warnings and the seceeding state wasn't bluffing when it said it would retake the Fort.

 

[bripat9643]

Why can't states secede today?

Just because some states that seceded 150 years ago started a war with the U.S.?

I'm pretty sure if circumstances called for it a state could secede anytime now.

When did the seceeding states start a war? I was under the impression that a specific state, after seceeding, asked federal troops to leave the state seeing as how the state was no longer a member of the Union. The federal troops refused to leave after numerous warnings and the seceeding state wasn't bluffing when it said it would retake the Fort.

BINGO!

However, the Lincoln worshipers couldn't go on living if they had to admit Lincoln started the war. Everything they believe hinges on whether the Civil War was a holy cause rather than the reality that it was a naked act of aggression against people bothering no one.

 

[BrianH]

1. U.S. law, prior to 1862 mentioned nothing about the legality or illegality of secession. The Constitution didn't mention it all. There were no SCOTUS rulings on it. So, under the 10th Amendment, the states had the right to secede.

2. Other than some being tried for war crimes, I don't believe that any Confederate commanders were ever charged with any crimes involving insurrection, rebellion, etc...

3. The 1869 SCOTUS decision was a farce and obviously ruled on biasly; but none-the-less the law of the land.

4. Texas Constitution: Article 1-Section 1: FREEDOM AND SOVEREIGNTY OF STATE. Texas is a free and independent State, subject only to the Constitution of the United States, and the maintenance of our free institutions and the perpetuity of the Union depend upon the preservation of the right of local self-government, unimpaired to all the States.

Note that Sec. 1 DOES NOT say that it is subject to the President of the United States, or to the Federal Government of the United States. It talks about the perpetuity of the Union depending up the "preservation of the right of local self-government." Seeing as how the federal government hasn't kept up it's end of the bargain I'd say the Texas Constitution gives perfect grounds for secession; espicially considering that the United States agreed to the terms in the Texas Constitution upon annexation....

5. Is it likely? No. The United States would never let Texas go without a war. Texas has the 14th largest economy in the world and is home to a TON of natural gas and oil reserves, as well as natural gas and oil refineries. If Texas wants out, it's going to have to fight it's way out. It won't only be fighting a war with the U.S., but will also be fighting a war with drug cartels to keep them from taking over...I love my state but now is not the right time to secede.

 

[BrianH]

Why can't states secede today?

Just because some states that seceded 150 years ago started a war with the U.S.?

I'm pretty sure if circumstances called for it a state could secede anytime now.

When did the seceeding states start a war? I was under the impression that a specific state, after seceeding, asked federal troops to leave the state seeing as how the state was no longer a member of the Union. The federal troops refused to leave after numerous warnings and the seceeding state wasn't bluffing when it said it would retake the Fort.

BINGO!

However, the Lincoln worshipers couldn't go on living if they had to admit Lincoln started the war. Everything they believe hinges on whether the Civil War was a holy cause rather than the reality that it was a naked act of aggression against people bothering no one.

Can't say that I blame them. Hell I was born, raised, and still live in the South and my public education still taught me that the war was to end slavery and that Lincoln and FDR were the greatest presidents EVER. Only when studying it, after high school, did I realize it was more of a state's right's issue than a slavery issue. Sure slavery played a part, but it could have easily have been Guns or some other issue that the federal government was/is strongarming the states over... I also learned that Lincoln and FDR were not the greatest presidents ever; respectively

 

[Contumacious]

Why can't states secede today?

Just because some states that seceded 150 years ago started a war with the U.S.?

I'm pretty sure if circumstances called for it a state could secede anytime now.

When did the seceeding states start a war? I was under the impression that a specific state, after seceeding, asked federal troops to leave the state seeing as how the state was no longer a member of the Union. The federal troops refused to leave after numerous warnings and the seceeding state wasn't bluffing when it said it would retake the Fort.

Yes, indeed

The Declaration of Independence adopts just this position: whenever a government "becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it.

.

 

[thanatos144]

Why can't states secede today?

Just because some states that seceded 150 years ago started a war with the U.S.?

I'm pretty sure if circumstances called for it a state could secede anytime now.

When did the seceeding states start a war? I was under the impression that a specific state, after seceeding, asked federal troops to leave the state seeing as how the state was no longer a member of the Union. The federal troops refused to leave after numerous warnings and the seceeding state wasn't bluffing when it said it would retake the Fort.

Yes, indeed

The Declaration of Independence adopts just this position: whenever a government "becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it.

.

I guess the government overreach when they were trying to make it so that the new territories wouldn't have slavery in them. I mean what dirty bastards to make it harder for others to own other people. Lincoln bent over reach the south did and started a war. . South certainly did rise up and cause the death of far too many Americans

 

[thanatos144]

I guess we could say the United Confederate states was the first evil empire that threaten the United States

 

[National Socialist]

/\ Dumb ass wants to insult something can't even get its name correct....more of that public education at work there.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Invading the state of Virginia was overreach.

You're denying there's a constitutional authority for the government to put down domestic rebellion, insurrection, etc.?

lol

Yo Ding Dong

As SOVEREIGN STATES they have a right to say bye-bye.

Its not a ******* rebellion.

.

They surrendered that part of their sovereignty by ratifying the Constitution, or by later applying for statehood.

There is no such right in Constitution.

For one thing the Constitution grants US citizenship to the residents of the various states. As US citizens they automatically acquire the constitutional right to be protected from all enemies, foreign and domestic.

A portion of a state's population deciding to effectively destroy the Constitution for that whole state is by definition a domestic enemy.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Why can't states secede today?

Just because some states that seceded 150 years ago started a war with the U.S.?

I'm pretty sure if circumstances called for it a state could secede anytime now.

When did the seceeding states start a war? I was under the impression that a specific state, after seceeding, asked federal troops to leave the state seeing as how the state was no longer a member of the Union. The federal troops refused to leave after numerous warnings and the seceeding state wasn't bluffing when it said it would retake the Fort.

States in the Union cannot compel Federal troops to leave Federal territory, which would be anywhere in the Union – then or now.

 

[Sallow]

1. U.S. law, prior to 1862 mentioned nothing about the legality or illegality of secession. The Constitution didn't mention it all. There were no SCOTUS rulings on it. So, under the 10th Amendment, the states had the right to secede.

2. Other than some being tried for war crimes, I don't believe that any Confederate commanders were ever charged with any crimes involving insurrection, rebellion, etc...

3. The 1869 SCOTUS decision was a farce and obviously ruled on biasly; but none-the-less the law of the land.

4. Texas Constitution: Article 1-Section 1: FREEDOM AND SOVEREIGNTY OF STATE. Texas is a free and independent State, subject only to the Constitution of the United States, and the maintenance of our free institutions and the perpetuity of the Union depend upon the preservation of the right of local self-government, unimpaired to all the States.

Note that Sec. 1 DOES NOT say that it is subject to the President of the United States, or to the Federal Government of the United States. It talks about the perpetuity of the Union depending up the "preservation of the right of local self-government." Seeing as how the federal government hasn't kept up it's end of the bargain I'd say the Texas Constitution gives perfect grounds for secession; espicially considering that the United States agreed to the terms in the Texas Constitution upon annexation....

5. Is it likely? No. The United States would never let Texas go without a war. Texas has the 14th largest economy in the world and is home to a TON of natural gas and oil reserves, as well as natural gas and oil refineries. If Texas wants out, it's going to have to fight it's way out. It won't only be fighting a war with the U.S., but will also be fighting a war with drug cartels to keep them from taking over...I love my state but now is not the right time to secede.

 

[Sallow]

Why can't states secede today?

Just because some states that seceded 150 years ago started a war with the U.S.?

I'm pretty sure if circumstances called for it a state could secede anytime now.

When did the seceeding states start a war? I was under the impression that a specific state, after seceeding, asked federal troops to leave the state seeing as how the state was no longer a member of the Union. The federal troops refused to leave after numerous warnings and the seceeding state wasn't bluffing when it said it would retake the Fort.

Yes, indeed

The Declaration of Independence adopts just this position: whenever a government "becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it.

.

The Declaration is a one shot deal.

It's never been used in any serious way in any legislation.

 

[Contumacious]

When did the seceeding states start a war? I was under the impression that a specific state, after seceeding, asked federal troops to leave the state seeing as how the state was no longer a member of the Union. The federal troops refused to leave after numerous warnings and the seceeding state wasn't bluffing when it said it would retake the Fort.

Yes, indeed

The Declaration of Independence adopts just this position: whenever a government "becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it.

.

I guess the government overreach when they were trying to make it so that the new territories wouldn't have slavery in them. I mean what dirty bastards to make it harder for others to own other people.

Bullshit. Slavery was on its way out. Every country on the face of mother earth abolished slavery without wiping out 620,000 citizens.

Lincoln bent over reach the south did and started a war. . South certainly did rise up and cause the death of far too many Americans

More bullshit.

South Carolina asked politely and respectfully for Lincoln to remove federal troops from Fort Sumter. The scumbag refused.

The war of northern aggression wasn't about slavery it was about excise taxes and real state.

Apologists came up with the slavery subterfuge because they needed a pretext after causing 620,000 Americans to die.

.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

1. U.S. law, prior to 1862 mentioned nothing about the legality or illegality of secession. The Constitution didn't mention it all. There were no SCOTUS rulings on it. So, under the 10th Amendment, the states had the right to secede.

2. Other than some being tried for war crimes, I don't believe that any Confederate commanders were ever charged with any crimes involving insurrection, rebellion, etc...

3. The 1869 SCOTUS decision was a farce and obviously ruled on biasly; but none-the-less the law of the land.

4. Texas Constitution: Article 1-Section 1: FREEDOM AND SOVEREIGNTY OF STATE. Texas is a free and independent State, subject only to the Constitution of the United States, and the maintenance of our free institutions and the perpetuity of the Union depend upon the preservation of the right of local self-government, unimpaired to all the States.

Note that Sec. 1 DOES NOT say that it is subject to the President of the United States, or to the Federal Government of the United States. It talks about the perpetuity of the Union depending up the "preservation of the right of local self-government." Seeing as how the federal government hasn't kept up it's end of the bargain I'd say the Texas Constitution gives perfect grounds for secession; espicially considering that the United States agreed to the terms in the Texas Constitution upon annexation....

5. Is it likely? No. The United States would never let Texas go without a war. Texas has the 14th largest economy in the world and is home to a TON of natural gas and oil reserves, as well as natural gas and oil refineries. If Texas wants out, it's going to have to fight it's way out. It won't only be fighting a war with the U.S., but will also be fighting a war with drug cartels to keep them from taking over...I love my state but now is not the right time to secede.

Absence of law on the issue did not de facto authorize any state to ‘secede.’

And it was never the intent of the Framers of the Tenth Amendment to ‘authorize’ secession.

Indeed, the very purpose of the Constitution was to acknowledge the supremacy of the Federal government, the laws of Congress, and decisions of Federal courts. The notion that a state or states could ‘secede’ unilaterally was anathema to the Founding Generation and the intent of the people to live as citizens of one Nation, not a collection of states.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Why can't states secede today?

Just because some states that seceded 150 years ago started a war with the U.S.?

I'm pretty sure if circumstances called for it a state could secede anytime now.

When did the seceeding states start a war? I was under the impression that a specific state, after seceeding, asked federal troops to leave the state seeing as how the state was no longer a member of the Union. The federal troops refused to leave after numerous warnings and the seceeding state wasn't bluffing when it said it would retake the Fort.

Yes, indeed

The Declaration of Independence adopts just this position: whenever a government "becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it.

.

The DoI is a political, not legal, document.

It has no binding judicial authority.

And in any event, there is nothing about the current government that has ‘become destructive’ that would warrant its ‘overthrow.’

In fact, Americans enjoy greater freedom and liberty today than at any time in our Nation’s history. To believe otherwise is to be either willfully ignorant or a partisan demagogue.

Last, those who attempt to present the government’s surveillance programs as some sort of ‘evidence’ of a government ‘become destructive’ are clearly ignorant of the fact that those programs exist at the behest of the people, authorized by their elected representatives in Congress, and administered by the courts in accordance with the Constitution.

Anyone who believes otherwise is at liberty to seek the end of these programs either at the ballot box or in the courts; but until such time as the laws authorizing the surveillance programs are repealed or invalidated, they remain legal and Constitutional and not justification to ‘overthrow’ the government.

 

[Contumacious]

[q

Indeed, the very purpose of the Constitution was to acknowledge the supremacy of the Federal government, the laws of Congress, and decisions of Federal courts. The notion that a state or states could ‘secede’ unilaterally was anathema to the Founding Generation and the intent of the people to live as citizens of one Nation, not a collection of states.

Pure bullshit.

Unless, of course you can provide a link to a historical website when ONE - EIN- UN - Founding Father supports your assertion.

Caution : Obama, Karl Marx , et al are NOT Founding Fathers.

Knock yourself out.

.

 

[BrianH]

When did the seceeding states start a war? I was under the impression that a specific state, after seceeding, asked federal troops to leave the state seeing as how the state was no longer a member of the Union. The federal troops refused to leave after numerous warnings and the seceeding state wasn't bluffing when it said it would retake the Fort.

Yes, indeed

The Declaration of Independence adopts just this position: whenever a government "becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it.

.

I guess the government overreach when they were trying to make it so that the new territories wouldn't have slavery in them. I mean what dirty bastards to make it harder for others to own other people. Lincoln bent over reach the south did and started a war. . South certainly did rise up and cause the death of far too many Americans

Slavery was legal until well after the war; including in the North. If the North was really worried about slavery it could have bargained with the South and recurited millions of it's unemployed, inner-city dwellers to travel to the South to take up cotton picking in order to remove the market for forced labor. The textile industry in the North was FEEDING slavery. They wanted cotton, tobacoo, corn, etc... and the South did what they could to meet demand. You think all of the crops harvested by the slaves and southern plantation owners went to market to feed people in the South? Nope. Every country in Europe got rid of slavery without a war; Lincoln could have done more. All he had to do was withrawal troops from Fort Sumter, negotiate with the Confederates, and work out a way to end slavery. If Lincoln had told the South he'd be sending thousands of Irish to help work the fields if the South would give up slavery, I'm sure they'd have ended it. BTW, the U.S. Government had no problem allowing the Chinese to be enslaved building the railroads heading out west; and yes they were virtually enslaved.

 

[Contumacious]

[.
They surrendered that part of their sovereignty by ratified the Constitution, or by later applying for statehood.

.

LINK

I am NOT asking for YOUR opinion, - I want to read where Patrick Henry stated "Let's waive our sovereignty"

EVIDENCE DOCUMENTS OR STFU

.

 

[BrianH]

I guess we could say the United Confederate states was the first evil empire that threaten the United States

How so? Federal Troops, representing the government of the United States of America, refused to leave a militarized fort on foriegn soil after being repeatedly asked to do so by a foreign government.