Bedouins in Israel Protest Plan to Regulate Settlement

[P F Tinmore]

Post it - I'm open to knowing more about the situation from both sides.

 

[P F Tinmore]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trMQ-lysCLo]Forced Palestinian Displacement - YouTube[/ame]

 

[docmauser1]

"Ethnic cleansing is a the process or policy of eliminating unwanted ethnic or religious groups by deportation, forcible displacement, mass murder, or by threats of such acts, with the intent of creating a territory inhabited by people of a homogeneous or pure ethnicity, religion, culture, and history. Ethnic cleansing usually involves attempts to remove physical and cultural evidence of the targeted group in the territory through the destruction of homes, social centers, farms, and infrastructure, and by the desecration of monuments, cemeteries, and places of worship."

Looks like a clear palistanian intent, of course.

 

[docmauser1]

The Bedouin's have been there since before Israel became a state. This is the biggest ethnic cleansing event since the Nakba.

Drivel?

 

[docmauser1]

It's very reminiscent as to how the Americans treated it's native people's - forced relocations onto less and less desirable "reservations"...the trail of tears...hmmm. I don't blame them for fighting back - what have they to gain from compliance? History is against them.

Cool proof that "land for peace" isn't going to work, of course.

 

[docmauser1]

Shantytowns in exchange for lands that have belonged to Bedouins since before the Ottoman Empire?

Any land deeds to back the claim up?

 

[georgephillip]

Shantytowns in exchange for lands that have belonged to Bedouins since before the Ottoman Empire?

Any land deeds to back the claim up?

Maybe not.

"Israel’s land policy was adapted to a large extent from the Ottoman land regulations of 1858. According to the 1858 Ottoman Land Law, lands that were not registered as of private ownership, were considered state lands.

"But Bedouins were not motivated to register lands they lived on, because land ownership meant additional responsibilities for them, including taxation and military duty, and it created a new problem since they found it hard to prove their ownership rights.

"Israel relied mainly on Tabu recordings.

"Most of the Bedouin land fell under the Ottoman class of 'non-workable' (mawat) land and thus belonged to the state under Ottoman law. Israel nationalized most of the Negev lands, using The Land Rights Settlement Ordinance from 1969."

Negev Bedouin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[docmauser1]

Shantytowns in exchange for lands that have belonged to Bedouins since before the Ottoman Empire?

Any land deeds to back the claim up?

Maybe not. "Israel’s land policy was adapted to a large extent from the Ottoman land regulations of 1858. According to the 1858 Ottoman Land Law, lands that were not registered as of private ownership, were considered state lands. "But Bedouins were not motivated to register lands they lived on, because land ownership meant additional responsibilities for them, including taxation and military duty, and it created a new problem since they found it hard to prove their ownership rights. "Israel relied mainly on Tabu recordings. "Most of the Bedouin land fell under the Ottoman class of 'non-workable' (mawat) land and thus belonged to the state under Ottoman law. Israel nationalized most of the Negev lands, using The Land Rights Settlement Ordinance from 1969."

There go our honorable P F Tinmore's asswild land claims, of course.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Any land deeds to back the claim up?

Maybe not. "Israel’s land policy was adapted to a large extent from the Ottoman land regulations of 1858. According to the 1858 Ottoman Land Law, lands that were not registered as of private ownership, were considered state lands. "But Bedouins were not motivated to register lands they lived on, because land ownership meant additional responsibilities for them, including taxation and military duty, and it created a new problem since they found it hard to prove their ownership rights. "Israel relied mainly on Tabu recordings. "Most of the Bedouin land fell under the Ottoman class of 'non-workable' (mawat) land and thus belonged to the state under Ottoman law. Israel nationalized most of the Negev lands, using The Land Rights Settlement Ordinance from 1969."

There go our honorable P F Tinmore's asswild land claims, of course.

Not really.

A dispute regarding the status of the territories was settled by an Arbitrator appointed by the Council of the League of Nations. It was decided that Palestine and Transjordan were newly created states according to the terms of the applicable post-war treaties.

The Courts of Palestine and Great Britain decided that title to the properties shown on the Ottoman Civil list had been ceded to the government of Palestine as an allied successor state.

State of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The land did not go to Britain, it went to Palestine.

In 1948 the Palestinians declared independence on its own land inside its international borders that were defined in 1922.

The Parties to the present Agreement, responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948 calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an Armistice;...

4. The road Taba-Qouseima-Auja shall not be employed by any military forces whatsoever for the purpose of entering Palestine.

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949

(d) In the sector from a point on the Dead Sea (MR 1925-0958) to the southernmost tip of Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall be determined by...

The Avalon Project : Jordanian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, April 3, 1949

The 1949 UN Armistice Agreement called the Place Palestine. Also, in two different agreements the agreements specifically called the Negev Palestine.

Israel signed both agreements.

 

[toastman]

So the Palestinians declared independence in 1948 ?? What month ?

 

[Lipush]

So what actually, is the situation between Israel and the Beduoin community?

Many people's were once nomadic and the sad reality is the modern world with it's concepts of hard boundaries, is clashing with that life. Is it good? Bad? Or simply something that must be accepted as inevitable?

It's not always good - in some cases the forced location of nomadic people's has resulted in poverty (typically nomadic lifestyles exist in a response to an environment that is unsuitable to stationary agriculture).

I hope you guys read this post from top to bottom.

I asked you few days ago about how many of you were interested to understand the subject or how many really understand the happenings in field

So as a resident of the Negev, which is the main area discussed here, let me enter my insight.

I can babble on and on about how stupid this argument is because Beduoins are nomads and they don't really possess lands because by dafinition, they have none.

But that is not the issue.

I'm going to be practical.

The main area in question is the Negev. most Beduoins are in the Negev, even though some are in the north.

Let us put things, certain things, into facts, alright?

Fact number 1: Most of the beduoin 'settlements' in the NEGEV today were NOT 'built' before 1948. MOST.

About the north, it's a different issue.

Fact number 2: in order for a town in Israel to be recognized as legal settlemt it needs a special authorization, in Israel is known as 'The Tabo'.

What is this Tabo? it's the 'Ok' of the Land Registry to recognize this place as a city, town, village, etc.

What is needed for recieving a Tabo? a master plan of the town, meaning its description- how it plans to be built, water system, housing system, sewer system, etc.

Any service given to certain town depends on the town's Tabo. Without a Tabo, you basically don't exist.

So, back to the issue at hand, many of the Beduoin 'settlements' of today don't exist because they don't have the Tabo.

I live in the town of Lehavim in the northern Negev, you're more than welcome to google it, I basically sit in the middle of an area which is settled by Beduoins.

And when did they came? just after our government and main district real-estate offices decided to build a new Jewish town in the Negev.

The Beduoin city of Rahat has the Tabo. Its residents are full citizens, this city is recognized by the government, it has 4 schools, clinic, developed water and sewer system, some of its inhebitents are very rich.

But right next to it are those small 'settlements'. A family takes a tent, stick it on the hill, they bring some of their friends and they want to be recognized as a town. We all know it doesn't work this way.

Cases were when they asked for the Tabo. But when asked to show the master plan of the city, they say they have none. How come? because between every inheritance of a beduoin family, what separates them are hills of sends. Children have to walk miles to get to school. miles separate between each Beduoin outpost and the next. So what happens, when the water system (whether 'Netafim' or 'Mei Sheva') look at it, they see it's impossible to built a water system that way, when miles separate the outposts. There are no roads or sidewalks, just hills.

So they cannot get this Tabo, therefore they cannot get running water, nor electricity. Why? for the same reason exactly. You cannot pass cabels this way.

So what do they do? either still or live without. Or they act themselves in the way of a "village". But then again, once you created a city or a town, which isn't recognized because it had it's issues, later on, if they act on it themselves, they do get the ok and get electricity and water.

But that causes another problem, which is- they don't pay taxes. When our government comes to collect, it's impossible, since there are no gates or borders separating the outposts, so each 'clan' says it's not even his land, so they're not the one to collect from.

That created many problems, for us and from them. In the last two years the burgleries increased dramatically. because once you don't have to pay for, you go get it on different means. in the past there were cases when the government cut them a slack and authorized for electricity, water, and services, even without the Tabo-

In BG"Z 3511/02 The Forum Of Coexistence in the Negev Vs. The Ministry Of Infrastructure the Israeli High Court determined that although the community of Um-Btin holds no Tabo, it is needed that the ministry of infrastructure overlook that and build a bridge for the children crossing the Hebron watersource, so they could get to school safely. They use the term 'relief for justice' which means that under very certain condition, when it is life foraking, the demands should soften, because at said case, children were at risk.

The courst said that one should lean on such term only rarely, because the Israeli law must be obeyed and respected.

This plan came by simply because a permanent solution for these situation has to take place.

 

[P F Tinmore]

So the Palestinians declared independence in 1948 ?? What month ?

What does it matter?

 

[toastman]

So the Palestinians declared independence in 1948 ?? What month ?

What does it matter?

My point was that they didn't. They did so in 1988, 40 years AFTER Israel declared

 

[P F Tinmore]

So the Palestinians declared independence in 1948 ?? What month ?

What does it matter?

My point was that they didn't. They did so in 1988, 40 years AFTER Israel declared

September 28, 1948.

 

[Billo_Really]

I hope you guys read this post from top to bottom.

I asked you few days ago about how many of you were interested to understand the subject or how many really understand the happenings in field

So as a resident of the Negev, which is the main area discussed here, let me enter my insight.

I can babble on and on about how stupid this argument is because Beduoins are nomads and they don't really possess lands because by dafinition, they have none.

But that is not the issue.

I'm going to be practical.

The main area in question is the Negev. most Beduoins are in the Negev, even though some are in the north.

Let us put things, certain things, into facts, alright?

Fact number 1: Most of the beduoin 'settlements' in the NEGEV today were NOT 'built' before 1948. MOST.

About the north, it's a different issue.

Fact number 2: in order for a town in Israel to be recognized as legal settlemt it needs a special authorization, in Israel is known as 'The Tabo'.

What is this Tabo? it's the 'Ok' of the Land Registry to recognize this place as a city, town, village, etc.

What is needed for recieving a Tabo? a master plan of the town, meaning its description- how it plans to be built, water system, housing system, sewer system, etc.

Any service given to certain town depends on the town's Tabo. Without a Tabo, you basically don't exist.

So, back to the issue at hand, many of the Beduoin 'settlements' of today don't exist because they don't have the Tabo.

I live in the town of Lehavim in the northern Negev, you're more than welcome to google it, I basically sit in the middle of an area which is settled by Beduoins.

And when did they came? just after our government and main district real-estate offices decided to build a new Jewish town in the Negev.

The Beduoin city of Rahat has the Tabo. Its residents are full citizens, this city is recognized by the government, it has 4 schools, clinic, developed water and sewer system, some of its inhebitents are very rich.

But right next to it are those small 'settlements'. A family takes a tent, stick it on the hill, they bring some of their friends and they want to be recognized as a town. We all know it doesn't work this way.

Cases were when they asked for the Tabo. But when asked to show the master plan of the city, they say they have none. How come? because between every inheritance of a beduoin family, what separates them are hills of sends. Children have to walk miles to get to school. miles separate between each Beduoin outpost and the next. So what happens, when the water system (whether 'Netafim' or 'Mei Sheva') look at it, they see it's impossible to built a water system that way, when miles separate the outposts. There are no roads or sidewalks, just hills.

So they cannot get this Tabo, therefore they cannot get running water, nor electricity. Why? for the same reason exactly. You cannot pass cabels this way.

So what do they do? either still or live without. Or they act themselves in the way of a "village". But then again, once you created a city or a town, which isn't recognized because it had it's issues, later on, if they act on it themselves, they do get the ok and get electricity and water.

But that causes another problem, which is- they don't pay taxes. When our government comes to collect, it's impossible, since there are no gates or borders separating the outposts, so each 'clan' says it's not even his land, so they're not the one to collect from.

That created many problems, for us and from them. In the last two years the burgleries increased dramatically. because once you don't have to pay for, you go get it on different means. in the past there were cases when the government cut them a slack and authorized for electricity, water, and services, even without the Tabo-

In BG"Z 3511/02 The Forum Of Coexistence in the Negev Vs. The Ministry Of Infrastructure the Israeli High Court determined that although the community of Um-Btin holds no Tabo, it is needed that the ministry of infrastructure overlook that and build a bridge for the children crossing the Hebron watersource, so they could get to school safely. They use the term 'relief for justice' which means that under very certain condition, when it is life foraking, the demands should soften, because at said case, children were at risk.

The courst said that one should lean on such term only rarely, because the Israeli law must be obeyed and respected.

This plan came by simply because a permanent solution for these situation has to take place.

Did you have "Tabo" 2000 years ago?

Was the lack of "Tabo", the reason for the diaspora?

 

[toastman]

What does it matter?

My point was that they didn't. They did so in 1988, 40 years AFTER Israel declared

September 28, 1948.

They didn't ! They did so in 1988.

 

[P F Tinmore]

My point was that they didn't. They did so in 1988, 40 years AFTER Israel declared

September 28, 1948.

They didn't ! They did so in 1988.

A/C.1/330 of 14 October 1948

 

[Lipush]

I hope you guys read this post from top to bottom.

I asked you few days ago about how many of you were interested to understand the subject or how many really understand the happenings in field

So as a resident of the Negev, which is the main area discussed here, let me enter my insight.

I can babble on and on about how stupid this argument is because Beduoins are nomads and they don't really possess lands because by dafinition, they have none.

But that is not the issue.

I'm going to be practical.

The main area in question is the Negev. most Beduoins are in the Negev, even though some are in the north.

Let us put things, certain things, into facts, alright?

Fact number 1: Most of the beduoin 'settlements' in the NEGEV today were NOT 'built' before 1948. MOST.

About the north, it's a different issue.

Fact number 2: in order for a town in Israel to be recognized as legal settlemt it needs a special authorization, in Israel is known as 'The Tabo'.

What is this Tabo? it's the 'Ok' of the Land Registry to recognize this place as a city, town, village, etc.

What is needed for recieving a Tabo? a master plan of the town, meaning its description- how it plans to be built, water system, housing system, sewer system, etc.

Any service given to certain town depends on the town's Tabo. Without a Tabo, you basically don't exist.

So, back to the issue at hand, many of the Beduoin 'settlements' of today don't exist because they don't have the Tabo.

I live in the town of Lehavim in the northern Negev, you're more than welcome to google it, I basically sit in the middle of an area which is settled by Beduoins.

And when did they came? just after our government and main district real-estate offices decided to build a new Jewish town in the Negev.

The Beduoin city of Rahat has the Tabo. Its residents are full citizens, this city is recognized by the government, it has 4 schools, clinic, developed water and sewer system, some of its inhebitents are very rich.

But right next to it are those small 'settlements'. A family takes a tent, stick it on the hill, they bring some of their friends and they want to be recognized as a town. We all know it doesn't work this way.

Cases were when they asked for the Tabo. But when asked to show the master plan of the city, they say they have none. How come? because between every inheritance of a beduoin family, what separates them are hills of sends. Children have to walk miles to get to school. miles separate between each Beduoin outpost and the next. So what happens, when the water system (whether 'Netafim' or 'Mei Sheva') look at it, they see it's impossible to built a water system that way, when miles separate the outposts. There are no roads or sidewalks, just hills.

So they cannot get this Tabo, therefore they cannot get running water, nor electricity. Why? for the same reason exactly. You cannot pass cabels this way.

So what do they do? either still or live without. Or they act themselves in the way of a "village". But then again, once you created a city or a town, which isn't recognized because it had it's issues, later on, if they act on it themselves, they do get the ok and get electricity and water.

But that causes another problem, which is- they don't pay taxes. When our government comes to collect, it's impossible, since there are no gates or borders separating the outposts, so each 'clan' says it's not even his land, so they're not the one to collect from.

That created many problems, for us and from them. In the last two years the burgleries increased dramatically. because once you don't have to pay for, you go get it on different means. in the past there were cases when the government cut them a slack and authorized for electricity, water, and services, even without the Tabo-

In BG"Z 3511/02 The Forum Of Coexistence in the Negev Vs. The Ministry Of Infrastructure the Israeli High Court determined that although the community of Um-Btin holds no Tabo, it is needed that the ministry of infrastructure overlook that and build a bridge for the children crossing the Hebron watersource, so they could get to school safely. They use the term 'relief for justice' which means that under very certain condition, when it is life foraking, the demands should soften, because at said case, children were at risk.

The courst said that one should lean on such term only rarely, because the Israeli law must be obeyed and respected.

This plan came by simply because a permanent solution for these situation has to take place.

Did you have "Tabo" 2000 years ago?

Was the lack of "Tabo", the reason for the diaspora?

I'm not sure what diaspora is, but one cannot get any services from the state without that Tabo. Israel's first interest is to deal with recognized towns, not outposts

 

[Lipush]

And the 2000 years ago is irrelevant question. This is the 21st century. Not the stone age.

 

[Billo_Really]

I'm not sure what diaspora is, but one cannot get any services from the state without that Tabo. Israel's first interest is to deal with recognized towns, not outposts

You don't know what the diaspora is?

That's like me never hearing about the American Revolution.