Bastiat

[Intense]

No offense Intense, but my story is easier to read and only requires one reading without great thought. I think I win.

I'm not here for a Pissing contest. Good Luck with that. Clean up when you are done. He wanted a discussion, or an opinion. Just calling as I see it.

I can't cut the mustard, my friend. In no mood for thinking that hard this evening, as you can tell. I'm impressed with your efforts and apologize for my attempt at humor.

Sorry about that. Did not mean to come off hard.

 

[flacaltenn]

Well, since its the typical libs responding, I guess I have to spoon feed:

That Which is Seen, and That Which is Not Seen; by Frederic Bastiat

"The Broken Window" would be a good place to start a discussion.........I won't hold my breath for that.

That pretty much describes "Cash for Clunkers" doesn't it??

And most other ill-conceived artificial stimuli that we have to endure from politicians who don't look at consequences (seen or unseen) at all. In fact -- they use camouflage to stealthfully repackage the economics..

Anyway -- I'm much more concerned about our economic experts are using obsolete models for an economy that no longer responds AT ALL to the old incantations..

 

[Intense]

No offense, but I think it is a False Premise, Rooted in Specific Actions, with Specific consequences, Viewed as Universal Rule.

How about stepping back a few steps and let's distinguish and consider. What motivates? What motivates Vision, Discovery, Invention? Experience, Circumstance, Epiphany, even events that may appear accidental or misguided.

Let's distinguish between Moral Absolutism and Moral Relativism. Let's distinguish between Cause and Effect, both intended and unintended, those we are aware of and those we are not. Lets consider the multiple tangents created by these, or at least the possibility.

Intention, what is it rooted in? What is it's Purpose? Do we have a cause? Do we have a means to attain our Goal? Is it Moral? Ethical? Can we attain our Goal without Sinning against Man, Nature, or God? Are we acting rashly? Spontaneously? Out of weakness, Desperation, Strength?

Where does Purpose fit in to the Equation? Is it possible to address a need, apply a remedy to a specific circumstance, looking for an exact remedy, tailored to that specific circumstance, if we try hard enough? Every Circumstance is unique, it will have both similarities and dissimilarities, to those we compare it to. Our effort to act, by what degree do we measure it? 10 fold? 30 fold? 100 fold?

How about this, measure twice, cut once?

No offense Intense, but my story is easier to read and only requires one reading without great thought. I think I win.

Yes you did........His gobblygook is typical of the liberal/leftist elite 'sticking their finger in the air with their cup' crap.

I have never read a post with so much bullshit as this..........might as well have a 100 monkeys typing out a random thesis..............yet these are the morons that are running this country (into the ground).

I'm neither Liberal or Left. I just believe in personal Responsibility, not excuses for why things go bad. Purpose, Cause, Integrity, are factors that effect outcome, Method, experience, Competence are also factors. You are shooting blanks right now, I recommend you check your premise.

 

[rckirby]

Here's my understanding of Bastiat's broken window scenario:

- boy breaks shopkeeper's window
- shopkeeper pays glazier to repair window

and the effects:

- the glazier has received payment in excess of his costs, making him happy the window was broken
- the shopkeeper has his window back, but is unhappy because he had to pay for it

Overall, the effect on society is a cost in the glazier's labor in materials, along with a transfer payment from shopkeeper to glazier. While the glazier is pleased the window was broken, society as a whole has been harmed by the experience.

Apparently, there was a school of thought Bastiat identified with one "M. F. Chamans" that held that such a broken window scenario would actually improve society. Chamans would see the glazier's enrichment, while failing to note that the shopkeeper's impoverishment exceeded it. Chamans went so far as to say that society might be enriched by the burning (and subsequent rebuilding) of Paris. Such a view may have had its adherents, but was never popular enough to actually result in the burning of Paris.

The parable is illustrative, but to the modern mind, the conclusion (that breaking windows is bad for society as a whole) seems fairly intuitive. I believe I agree with Bastiat here, and perhaps his point was quite insightful when it was made, but such considerations are so much a part of the modern economic perspective that I don't see any additional insight to be gleaned from Bastiat's parable.

I'm sure there are some few people out there who would indeed advocate for the breaking of windows, but I am not one of them.

Maybe there is hope for you...........research "what is not seen".

Hey, Japan just got hit with not only an earthquake, but a tsumami........they should be rolling in $$$$ with all the repairs that need to be made.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Here's my understanding of Bastiat's broken window scenario:

- boy breaks shopkeeper's window
- shopkeeper pays glazier to repair window

and the effects:

- the glazier has received payment in excess of his costs, making him happy the window was broken
- the shopkeeper has his window back, but is unhappy because he had to pay for it

Overall, the effect on society is a cost in the glazier's labor in materials, along with a transfer payment from shopkeeper to glazier. While the glazier is pleased the window was broken, society as a whole has been harmed by the experience.

Apparently, there was a school of thought Bastiat identified with one "M. F. Chamans" that held that such a broken window scenario would actually improve society. Chamans would see the glazier's enrichment, while failing to note that the shopkeeper's impoverishment exceeded it. Chamans went so far as to say that society might be enriched by the burning (and subsequent rebuilding) of Paris. Such a view may have had its adherents, but was never popular enough to actually result in the burning of Paris.

The parable is illustrative, but to the modern mind, the conclusion (that breaking windows is bad for society as a whole) seems fairly intuitive. I believe I agree with Bastiat here, and perhaps his point was quite insightful when it was made, but such considerations are so much a part of the modern economic perspective that I don't see any additional insight to be gleaned from Bastiat's parable.

I'm sure there are some few people out there who would indeed advocate for the breaking of windows, but I am not one of them.

Maybe there is hope for you...........research "what is not seen".

Hey, Japan just got hit with not only an earthquake, but a tsumami........they should be rolling in $$$$ with all the repairs that need to be made.

Not to mention all the jobs that suddenlty became available, huh, funny guy.

 

[rckirby]

Well, since its the typical libs responding, I guess I have to spoon feed:

That Which is Seen, and That Which is Not Seen; by Frederic Bastiat

"The Broken Window" would be a good place to start a discussion.........I won't hold my breath for that.

That pretty much describes "Cash for Clunkers" doesn't it??

And most other ill-conceived artificial stimuli that we have to endure from politicians who don't look at consequences (seen or unseen) at all. In fact -- they use camouflage to stealthfully repackage the economics..

Anyway -- I'm much more concerned about our economic experts are using obsolete models for an economy that no longer responds AT ALL to the old incantations..

"Cash for Clunkers" is an excellent example...........destroy thousands of cars, and there parts/engines just to get a few new cars bought........meanwhile the 'poor' can't go to a junkyard and buy a part for their car to keep it on the road.

 

[rckirby]

Here's my understanding of Bastiat's broken window scenario:

- boy breaks shopkeeper's window
- shopkeeper pays glazier to repair window

and the effects:

- the glazier has received payment in excess of his costs, making him happy the window was broken
- the shopkeeper has his window back, but is unhappy because he had to pay for it

Overall, the effect on society is a cost in the glazier's labor in materials, along with a transfer payment from shopkeeper to glazier. While the glazier is pleased the window was broken, society as a whole has been harmed by the experience.

Apparently, there was a school of thought Bastiat identified with one "M. F. Chamans" that held that such a broken window scenario would actually improve society. Chamans would see the glazier's enrichment, while failing to note that the shopkeeper's impoverishment exceeded it. Chamans went so far as to say that society might be enriched by the burning (and subsequent rebuilding) of Paris. Such a view may have had its adherents, but was never popular enough to actually result in the burning of Paris.

The parable is illustrative, but to the modern mind, the conclusion (that breaking windows is bad for society as a whole) seems fairly intuitive. I believe I agree with Bastiat here, and perhaps his point was quite insightful when it was made, but such considerations are so much a part of the modern economic perspective that I don't see any additional insight to be gleaned from Bastiat's parable.

I'm sure there are some few people out there who would indeed advocate for the breaking of windows, but I am not one of them.

Maybe there is hope for you...........research "what is not seen".

Hey, Japan just got hit with not only an earthquake, but a tsumami........they should be rolling in $$$$ with all the repairs that need to be made.

Not to mention all the jobs that suddenlty became available, huh, funny guy.

At who's expense?????????????? Jeez, you can't honestly buy into this crap!!!!!!!!! The Japanese g'mint is paying to repair the damage..........and who's $$ are they using? You can't honestly be this dense.

 

[Jackson]

When I began reading the Broken Window, I immediately thought of Geithner and Bernanke andhow they lacked the expertise and ability to foresee what their actions my result in down the line.

When Congress got involved and the bartering took place, it was plain to see that the alterations and even perhaps the president's campaign agenda was taking the place of the drastic measures needed at this point in time.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Maybe there is hope for you...........research "what is not seen".

Hey, Japan just got hit with not only an earthquake, but a tsumami........they should be rolling in $$$$ with all the repairs that need to be made.

Not to mention all the jobs that suddenlty became available, huh, funny guy.

At who's expense?????????????? Jeez, you can't honestly buy into this crap!!!!!!!!! The Japanese g'mint is paying to repair the damage..........and who's $$ are they using? You can't honestly be this dense.

Um...all I was doing there was advising you that your comments were those of an asshole. I haven't bought into anything. Get over yourself.

 

[Intense]

When I began reading the Broken Window, I immediately thought of Geithner and Bernanke andhow they lacked the expertise and ability to foresee what their actions my result in down the line.

When Congress got involved and the bartering took place, it was plain to see that the alterations and even perhaps the president's campaign agenda was taking the place of the drastic measures needed at this point in time.

One thing the Broken Window doesn't take into account is Providence. Shit Happens. Sometimes we need to apply the brakes, reexamine our priorities. Sometimes the value is in the lesson learned, sometimes we learn easy, sometimes we learn the hard way. The Glazier will go on with new construction, regardless, the shoes will eventually be purchased.

 

[ladyliberal]

Okay, I'm going way off the mark here, but did anyone see this theory or story and it's insight oin what is happeningn throughout the globe in economic terms or what is happening to the US since 2008?
BTW..excellent account, LiberalLady!

Thanks, Jackson.

Regarding the economic scene in the globe or the US since 2008, the "broken window" is the economy itself. Society as a whole is of course quite harmed, as society is in the broken window example.

I don't know that anyone is playing the role of Chamans. A few people like to point out the benefits of the poor economy (eg, companies are learning to be more efficient because they have less money, and efficiency is good in the long run). However, I don't think anyone credible is suggesting that the meltdown will prove to be a good thing overall.

The interesting question is who plays the glazier in this situation? These would be people who are fixing everything in the face of the new (IE, bad) economy, or at least processing the effects of the bad economy. These would be agencies like debt collectors, employment servicers, accountants, and corporate restructurers. Indeed, such people do seem to be doing fairly well (While the Economy Struggles, Profits Can Be Made - NYTimes.com).

Other businesses can do well in a bad economy because they sell "inferior goods". These goods are both less desirable and less costly than some equivalent. Thus, when people have less money, the demand for these goods goes up. For example, more people shop at grocery stores rather than eating at restaurants now than before 2008. Perversely, this effect can actually increase the price of groceries, since demand for them has gone up.

We could also ask who the boy who broke the glass is. That is, who broke the US/world economy? I think that has already been talked to death, and I have no desire to get into it tonight.

 

[rckirby]

This is a no holds bared message board my friend, just letting you know. I have not been here in a little while but I will look at the material you linked to.

I know what you are saying.............I get frustrated by our home forum, and came here to have intelligent discussion........but it seems like the partisans have taken over both, with little interest in having a non-partisan discussion...........no wonder I see fewer and fewer posts by BGG............he is my forum 'hero'. (You know of whom I speak)

you came in here asking an opinion on something without a link or summary of what the topic was about, and then you get all testy when people just dont start talking.

the error was on your part.

I guess it was..........I came here, sadly, thinking that there would be a higher level of conversation......I was hoping that just by starting a 'Bastiat thread that I could garmer some discussion........but its just more 'partisanship'..........sigh......all this place seems to be is just another partisan forum, with pretty loose moderators.

Sorry, I wasn't looking for a forum where I could cuss and insult..........I was looking for a forum where there was some intelligent back and forth.

I guess I will keep looking.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Sa yo na ra.............

 

[idb]

I know what you are saying.............I get frustrated by our home forum, and came here to have intelligent discussion........but it seems like the partisans have taken over both, with little interest in having a non-partisan discussion...........no wonder I see fewer and fewer posts by BGG............he is my forum 'hero'. (You know of whom I speak)

you came in here asking an opinion on something without a link or summary of what the topic was about, and then you get all testy when people just dont start talking.

the error was on your part.

I guess it was..........I came here, sadly, thinking that there would be a higher level of conversation......I was hoping that just by starting a 'Bastiat thread that I could garmer some discussion........but its just more 'partisanship'..........sigh......all this place seems to be is just another partisan forum, with pretty loose moderators.

Sorry, I wasn't looking for a forum where I could cuss and insult..........I was looking for a forum where there was some intelligent back and forth.

I guess I will keep looking.

I'm at a bit of a loss here, the only mention of 'libs' or otherwise was by you.
The cussing and insulting was started by you.

 

[rckirby]

This is a no holds bared message board my friend, just letting you know. I have not been here in a little while but I will look at the material you linked to.

I know what you are saying.............I get frustrated by our home forum, and came here to have intelligent discussion........but it seems like the partisans have taken over both, with little interest in having a non-partisan discussion...........no wonder I see fewer and fewer posts by BGG............he is my forum 'hero'. (You know of whom I speak)

you came in here asking an opinion on something without a link or summary of what the topic was about, and then you get all testy when people just dont start talking.

the error was on your part.

Maybe so...I had too high of expectations. But I thank LadyLiberal........she at least took time to respond with a discussion.......which is all I was looking for. Tough to find these days.

 

[rckirby]

Okay, I'm going way off the mark here, but did anyone see this theory or story and it's insight oin what is happeningn throughout the globe in economic terms or what is happening to the US since 2008?
BTW..excellent account, LiberalLady!

Thanks, Jackson.

Regarding the economic scene in the globe or the US since 2008, the "broken window" is the economy itself. Society as a whole is of course quite harmed, as society is in the broken window example.

I don't know that anyone is playing the role of Chamans. A few people like to point out the benefits of the poor economy (eg, companies are learning to be more efficient because they have less money, and efficiency is good in the long run). However, I don't think anyone credible is suggesting that the meltdown will prove to be a good thing overall.

The interesting question is who plays the glazier in this situation? These would be people who are fixing everything in the face of the new (IE, bad) economy, or at least processing the effects of the bad economy. These would be agencies like debt collectors, employment servicers, accountants, and corporate restructurers. Indeed, such people do seem to be doing fairly well (While the Economy Struggles, Profits Can Be Made - NYTimes.com).

Other businesses can do well in a bad economy because they sell "inferior goods". These goods are both less desirable and less costly than some equivalent. Thus, when people have less money, the demand for these goods goes up. For example, more people shop at grocery stores rather than eating at restaurants now than before 2008. Perversely, this effect can actually increase the price of groceries, since demand for them has gone up.

We could also ask who the boy who broke the glass is. That is, who broke the US/world economy? I think that has already been talked to death, and I have no desire to get into it tonight.

Thank you! Well done.

And I do appreciate the fact that its too late in the night to respond. I have a rather small window and try to cram too much into it.

 

[rckirby]

you came in here asking an opinion on something without a link or summary of what the topic was about, and then you get all testy when people just dont start talking.

the error was on your part.

I guess it was..........I came here, sadly, thinking that there would be a higher level of conversation......I was hoping that just by starting a 'Bastiat thread that I could garmer some discussion........but its just more 'partisanship'..........sigh......all this place seems to be is just another partisan forum, with pretty loose moderators.

Sorry, I wasn't looking for a forum where I could cuss and insult..........I was looking for a forum where there was some intelligent back and forth.

I guess I will keep looking.

I'm at a bit of a loss here, the only mention of 'libs' or otherwise was by you.
The cussing and insulting was started by you.

Where did I mention 'libs'? Where did I cuss? Where did I insult?

 

[rckirby]

you came in here asking an opinion on something without a link or summary of what the topic was about, and then you get all testy when people just dont start talking.

the error was on your part.

I guess it was..........I came here, sadly, thinking that there would be a higher level of conversation......I was hoping that just by starting a 'Bastiat thread that I could garmer some discussion........but its just more 'partisanship'..........sigh......all this place seems to be is just another partisan forum, with pretty loose moderators.

Sorry, I wasn't looking for a forum where I could cuss and insult..........I was looking for a forum where there was some intelligent back and forth.

I guess I will keep looking.

shrug... Your Op was terrible, what else did you expect?

I guess....it didn't have enough sex or partisanship to garner attention. My bad.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

I guess it was..........I came here, sadly, thinking that there would be a higher level of conversation......I was hoping that just by starting a 'Bastiat thread that I could garmer some discussion........but its just more 'partisanship'..........sigh......all this place seems to be is just another partisan forum, with pretty loose moderators.

Sorry, I wasn't looking for a forum where I could cuss and insult..........I was looking for a forum where there was some intelligent back and forth.

I guess I will keep looking.

I'm at a bit of a loss here, the only mention of 'libs' or otherwise was by you.
The cussing and insulting was started by you.

Where did I mention 'libs'? Where did I cuss? Where did I insult?

The cognitive dissonance is strong with this one...

From this thread:

Well, since its the typical libs responding, I guess I have to spoon feed:

Both an "insult", and a reference to "libs".

Since you as a 'liberal' only relies on 'wiki', then I expect no further intelligent discussion.

More insults, more "libs".

Yes you did........His gobblygook is typical of the liberal/leftist elite 'sticking their finger in the air with their cup' crap.
I have never read a post with so much bullshit as this..........might as well have a 100 monkeys typing out a random thesis..............yet these are the morons that are running this country (into the ground).

And more insults. To top it off, Intense is far from a "lib".

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Haven't been here long...but looking for ANYONE that can discuss his thoughts........I predict crickets.............

I'm pretty sure I've read most of his work, if not all.