Athiest Playbook

[presonorek]

Forget it. You are hopeless. Lol.

I know that I believe nothing. You only believe what people tell you to believe. You are hopelessly required to adopt the findings of these authorities. I can use my brain and give it fair scrutiny.

I don't have to believe something just because it is written in a book, told to me by a teacher or published on a website. You are required to accept anything they tell you.

You are hopeless. I am flexible.

 

[ChrisL]

I know what I believe, but it would probably be considered "rude" to say so. Lol.

 

[presonorek]

Lol. No, you should believe the religious people and the bible.

Why? Because it is in a book, told to me by teachers and published on a website? Is that the reason that I should believe religious people and the Bible?

You should however believe what scientist says and what high school science books say. You should believe all of it because it is in a book, it is told to you by your teachers and because it is published on a website.

We are hopelessly the same. At least we both use the same methodology.

 

[presonorek]

I know what I believe, but it would probably be considered "rude" to say so. Lol.

That's true. You wouldn't want anyone to think you were rude.

 

[aris2chat]

... I'm not sure I buy that. My x-wife was told by her Catholic priest, back in the 1960's, that her first child, who was born dead, could not be buried in hallowed ground, since it had not been baptised; and further, the child would spend eternity in purgatory, separated from my x-wife. She never stepped foot in a Catholic church again.

And where was the child buried instead if not on a graveyard?

I know this might be a shock to you, but not all graveyards are catholic cemeteries.

And, BTW, the same thing happened to a girl I used to date in high school. She killed herself, and had to be buried in a public cemetery, instead of the church cemetery.

I have my relatives on my shelf, no cemetery needed. Different faiths and if I move I take them with me. They agreed and wanted to be kept with my grandmother and my dog.

A small bit of ashes of my father was taken back to his home country for the family service after he died and sprinkled in him family village. A bit of my in-laws were taken to the place where they met and sprinkled there together, after both of them died. The rest is on my shelf.
I have frames in front of each box with their picture and some small remembrance or object that was important to each. A candle on their birthdays and the anniversary of their death. They are always with me.
Kids used to wave at them or throw them a kiss when they came and left the house. At holiday meals we set an empty place to represent them all. When I have flowers, I put one in a small vase on the shelf by them.

I never understood why people are put in the ground and forgotten. Maybe some day I will have them turned to diamonds and mounted on a bracelet to be passed down through the family. Something to be treasured.

 

[Meriweather]

Meriweather. You are correct about one thing. My memory was wrong. The priest told her the child would spend eternity in "limbo", not "purgatory". I am not Catholic, so these distinctions are not familiar to me. You are also probably correct that the concept of "limbo" is probably passe'. However, though my memory is sometimes faulty, my wife's understanding was precise.

I find it disturbing that doctrines can change simply because the church did not get it right the first time. What I find MORE than disturbing is that, for all practical purposes, you have no appeal to a priest's decision in the Catholic Church. It is a top down organization. You can not fire your priest. In fact, one of her kids by her deceased first husband wanted to get married in another parish, and was told by that priest that he would not do the ceremony unless her own parish priest gave his OK.

Doctrines don't change. What changes is language, and what may have changed in one language might still remain very precise in another. For example, consider a world of Catholics using many different languages. The original doctrine of limbo was written in Latin, retains its original meaning, and probably did in a few other languages as well. But then the Church notices that the English language has developed over the centuries, and English speaking people have the wrong idea about limbo. So the Church acts to correct what went wrong. Unfortunately, not in time for your ex-wife.

Scripture never did--and still doesn't--address what happens when a child dies before baptism. Some will tell you, "Child died before age of reason, therefore he is heaven." This may quite possibility be true--but that is an opinion of a man, it is not something scripture addresses directly.

I'm glad I didn't have your ex-wife's priest when I had questions about my atheist grandfather. I was shown precisely what the Catholic Church taught about that (entrusted to the loving kindness of God) and the scripture, traditions, and writings that formed that teaching. My sister and niece were told the same thing when their infants were born dead (by two other different priests).

Could be that some priests pay attention...and some don't. In any case, I think many priests would feel the same anger about what happened to your ex-wife that I am feeling. I know what priests told my grandmother, and then me, when we decided to marry atheists. They pointed out the problems that would very likely occur, but were supportive of our final decisions. I've heard of other people leaving the church because the the reaction they got when they said they wished to marry an atheist.

 

[zaangalewa]

... I'm not sure I buy that. My x-wife was told by her Catholic priest, back in the 1960's, that her first child, who was born dead, could not be buried in hallowed ground, since it had not been baptised; and further, the child would spend eternity in purgatory, separated from my x-wife. She never stepped foot in a Catholic church again.

And where was the child buried instead if not on a graveyard?

I know this might be a shock to you, but not all graveyards are catholic cemeteries.

And, BTW, the same thing happened to a girl I used to date in high school. She killed herself, and had to be buried in a public cemetery, instead of the church cemetery.

It seems to me you do not really know what had happened with her child. Why did she leave you?

Zaan, you are REALLY out of line, here. I suggest that you quit while you are breaking even.

I'm a German. Did I hurt a taboo of the anglo-american world?

 

[Vandalshandle]

... I'm not sure I buy that. My x-wife was told by her Catholic priest, back in the 1960's, that her first child, who was born dead, could not be buried in hallowed ground, since it had not been baptised; and further, the child would spend eternity in purgatory, separated from my x-wife. She never stepped foot in a Catholic church again.

And where was the child buried instead if not on a graveyard?

I know this might be a shock to you, but not all graveyards are catholic cemeteries.

And, BTW, the same thing happened to a girl I used to date in high school. She killed herself, and had to be buried in a public cemetery, instead of the church cemetery.

It seems to me you do not really know what had happened with her child. Why did she leave you?

Zaan, you are REALLY out of line, here. I suggest that you quit while you are breaking even.

I'm a German. Did I hurt a taboo of the anglo-american world?

Not to worry. It won't happen again. You are now on "ignore".

 

[Meriweather]

While I do not share your belief's, I appreciate your respectful tone and demeanor. I do wish, however, that more christians behaved the same way you do..

Wow. Thank you for saying so. I'm not out to change people's beliefs. I would like to gain a better understanding why they believe as they do--and perhaps provide a better understanding of why I believe as I do. Lots of room for good discussion between those two parameters. You, too, are a good person to converse with.

 

[zaangalewa]

And where was the child buried instead if not on a graveyard?

I know this might be a shock to you, but not all graveyards are catholic cemeteries.

And, BTW, the same thing happened to a girl I used to date in high school. She killed herself, and had to be buried in a public cemetery, instead of the church cemetery.

It seems to me you do not really know what had happened with her child. Why did she leave you?

Zaan, you are REALLY out of line, here. I suggest that you quit while you are breaking even.

I'm a German. Did I hurt a taboo of the anglo-american world?

Not to worry. It won't happen again. You are now on "ignore".

 

[sealybobo]

Let's start from the beginning. Pretend you're a child going into your parents room and you tell them the boogeyman is in your closet. As your parent do you want me to believe you? Are you going to take me and show me the boogie man? But when I don't see the boogie man are you going to swear he was there talking to you? Are your parents smart to not believe you? So you see why we don't believe you the same way you don't believe Muslims or that God talk to Joseph Smith etc

I come from a family of ten. No one ever had tales of boogeymen in the closet. My older brother used to put his Pop-eye punching bag in the closet and close the door on it every night, because when he woke up in the middle of the night, that form gave him the willies. My sister and I used to try and creep up on our room, throw open the door so we might catch our dolls running back into their original positions. And, of course, we read/listened to stories about "monsters" in closets turning out to be something else entirely. Anyway, no fear of monsters in closets. We girls had absolutely no reservations of pretending to be monsters in closets to try and scare our brothers.

We believed in Santa Claus, tooth fairy, etc., and the group of us had a serious conversation whether we should let on we knew rather than risk the game being over if we confessed we were onto our parents. (Parents pretending to be Santa was way more cool than we pretending to be monsters.)

Boy did you completely missed my point. When you come to me telling me about your god, I feel like you are a little child coming to me telling me about your imaginary friend. Now if you can't take me to your room and show me, just like any intelligent adult would, I have to assume your imaginary friend is just that, imaginary.

What makes you think I should believe you or your church? Because you are adults? Should I believe any other church that tells me a similar fantasy? George Carlin was right. Religion is the greatest BS story ever told.

Do you think you have provided any proof that a rational logical scientific thinking person should accept? Scripture? You think that's proof? It is not. If it were, there would be no Muslims or Jews and I would not be an atheist.

 

[sealybobo]

I will go back and read the rest of your post but I want to start with your husband being an atheist. So you can sit there and look at the man you love everyday knowing his soul will burn in eternity for all hell? Because that is what your religion believes and if you don't believe that then maybe you're not really a Christian?

Once you read my post (and I do apologize for its length), you will understand that Christianity does NOT teach the atheist soul will burn in hell for eternity. Some Christian sects teach that is what happens, but that is not the majority of Christians, though perhaps the majority of Christians you know.

The Catholic Church teaches that those who do not follow the Catholic Faith (be they non-Catholic or atheist) are entrusted to the loving kindness and mercy of God. Catholics, Orthodox, and a few other of the larger denominations, have an entirely different approach to the Cross, to Christ, to God, and to hell than the aspects you seem to assign to all of Christianity.

I'm not sure I buy that. My x-wife was told by her Catholic priest, back in the 1960's, that her first child, who was born dead, could not be buried in hallowed ground, since it had not been baptised; and further, the child would spend eternity in purgatory, separated from my x-wife.

She never stepped foot in a Catholic church again.

She should have left the church long before that. As soon as they told her non christians go to hell or don't go to heaven she should have quit if she didn't believe it.

It took that rule hurting someone she loved for her to care. Probably because she lacks empathy. Its like the person who is anti abortion who takes their 16 year old daughter to get an abortion. She didn't have empathy. It had to happen to her for her to understand. Same with my republican friends who lost their jobs. They always said, "i would never collect unemployment", before they lost their first job.

So it didn't bother her that billions of humans were burning in hell or in purgatory until it was her son?

And if she claimed to be a Catholic back then, how did she not know this? See how ignorant most Christians are? They rely on their pervert priest to tell them what the bible says.

I have a secret for you. The bible says everything and nothing. It says whatever you want it to say.

 

[sealybobo]

If we don't believe our children when they tell us stories that cannot be true why do we believe churches when they tell a story that cannot be true?

As a very tiny child I had books that old of people in the olden days having experiences of God. That opened up the possibility that anyone could have an experience of God--not just believe in Him. I understood this to be a very rare occurrence--but not unheard of. As I grew, I learned people did have experiences of God--maybe not on the grand order that Abraham and Moses did, because most of them were like Elijah's experience, one of a tiny whispering sound passing by.

The purpose of scripture is not to tell us how rainbows came into being, but rather it seeks to inform us of those "rainbows" we cannot see, those experiences of God. The Bible records experiences of God, which in turn prompts many to seek that experience. Our experiences will never make it into scripture, but as small as they are, they mean a great deal to us--certainly as much as scripture, possibly more.

Let me give you a great example of how stupid people are. The bible says you will not see a ghost of someone who died in your house or a long lost love one when you go see a Medium. You know that right? Well what percent of Americans believe in ghosts?

45 percent of Americans believe in ghosts, or that the spirits of dead people can come back in certain places and situations. That's pretty much half. How many of these people are Christians? I'd say a hell of a lot of them.

The Bible negates the idea that the spirits of deceased human beings can remain on earth and “haunt” the living.

Hebrews 9:27 declares, “Man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.” That is what happens to a person’s soul-spirit after death—judgment. The result of this judgment is heaven for the believer (2 Corinthians 5:6-8;Philippians 1:23) and hell for the unbeliever (Matthew 25:46;Luke 16:22-24). There is no in-between. There is no possibility of remaining on earth in spirit form as a “ghost.” If there are such things as ghosts, according to the Bible, they absolutely cannot be the disembodied spirits of deceased human beings.

 

[sealybobo]

How old are you? Didn't you learn about this stuff in school? We did, and though I don't remember much about it and it was pretty much basic information, I learned about dinosaurs and how they were discovered and how scientists figure out how old they are. These same methods are used in forensic pathology.

Radiometric dating - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Am I just supposed to believe my teachers because they are teachers?

Am I just supposed to believe the text books just because they look authentic and are written in an authoritative fashion?

Am I just supposed to click on that website and believe everything it says?

If so, I can believe everything my pastors and sunday school teachers told me. I am also supposed to believe the Bible because it has a black cover with gold letters and it is also written with an authoritative tone.

There are thousands of Christian websites on the internet. I guess I am obligated to believe them too.

I am a skeptic. I don't know anything unless I can see it for myself. I believe some things that are logical but I don't take everything that I am spoon fed. If I did then I wouldn't be an atheist anymore. You are asking me to adopt your belief in science because a book says so. With the same breathe you tell me to reject the teachings of Christianity because a book says so. Make up your mind.

Should I believe BS or ignore BS? Which one is it?

This should help you and others:

(1) Question authority. No idea is true just because someone says so, including me.

(2) Think for yourself. Question yourself. Don't believe anything just because you want to. Believing something doesn't make it so.

(3) Test ideas by the evidence gained from observation and experiment. If a favorite idea fails a well-designed test, it's wrong. Get over it.

(4) Follow the evidence wherever it leads. If you have no evidence, reserve judgment.

And perhaps the most important rule of all...

(5) Remember: you could be wrong. Even the best scientists have been wrong about some things. Newton, Einstein, and every other great scientist in history -- they all made mistakes. Of course they did. They were human.

Science is a way to keep from fooling ourselves, and each other.

 

[Meriweather]

Boy did you completely missed my point. When you come to me telling me about your god, I feel like you are a little child coming to me telling me about your imaginary friend. Now if you can't take me to your room and show me, just like any intelligent adult would, I have to assume your imaginary friend is just that, imaginary.

What makes you think I should believe you or your church? Because you are adults? Should I believe any other church that tells me a similar fantasy? George Carlin was right. Religion is the greatest BS story ever told.

Do you think you have provided any proof that a rational logical scientific thinking person should accept? Scripture? You think that's proof? It is not. If it were, there would be no Muslims or Jews and I would not be an atheist.

I didn't miss your point, but you're talking apples to my oranges.

Let's try again. There are more than just physical experiences. There are physical experiences, imaginary experiences, dream experiences...and spiritual experiences. If I were to relate last night's dream experience to you, would you demand that I produce physical evidence that my dream was exactly as I described? The same with something imagined. If I described something I was imagining, would you demand proof that was actually the object I was imagining? Of course not! Dream and imaginary experiences are not physical experiences. Nor, would you doubt me if I were to tell you I had a dream and argue my dream experience was something I imagined.

Let's add one more non-physical experience: The spiritual experience. If I were to describe a spiritual experience to you, you would have no hesitation being all over my case saying you don't believe it, because I have no physical evidence. Although you are probably certain people know the difference between nighttime dream and imagination, you are equally certain people must not be able to distinguish between spiritual experience and dream (or imagination).

 

[sealybobo]

... I'm not sure I buy that. My x-wife was told by her Catholic priest, back in the 1960's, that her first child, who was born dead, could not be buried in hallowed ground, since it had not been baptised; and further, the child would spend eternity in purgatory, separated from my x-wife. She never stepped foot in a Catholic church again.

And where was the child buried instead if not on a graveyard?

I know this might be a shock to you, but not all graveyards are catholic cemeteries.

And, BTW, the same thing happened to a girl I used to date in high school. She killed herself, and had to be buried in a public cemetery, instead of the church cemetery.

It seems to me you do not really know what had happened with her child. Why did she leave you?

Zaan, you are REALLY out of line, here. I suggest that you quit while you are breaking even.

The religious people (or a lot of them) get angry if you question their beliefs. I mean, back in the middle ages, that was a death penalty.

You don't have to go back to the middle ages. Just go to the middle east.

American atheist blogger hacked to death in Bangladesh World news The Guardian

A prominent American blogger of Bangladeshi origin has been hacked to death with machetes by unidentified assailants in Dhaka, after he allegedly received threats from Islamists.

The body of Avijit Roy, founder of the Mukto-Mona (Free-mind) blog site – which champions liberal secular writing in the Muslim-majority nation – was found covered in blood after an attack that also left his wife critically wounded.

And is the government going to do anything about it? NOPE.

Roy, who was 42, is the second Bangladeshi blogger to have been murdered in two years and the fourth writer to have been attacked since 2004.

Hardline Islamist groups have long demanded the public killing of atheist bloggers and sought new laws to deal with writing critical of Islam.

Lucky crazy Christians aren't as crazy as Muslims, huh?

 

[sealybobo]

Boy did you completely missed my point. When you come to me telling me about your god, I feel like you are a little child coming to me telling me about your imaginary friend. Now if you can't take me to your room and show me, just like any intelligent adult would, I have to assume your imaginary friend is just that, imaginary.

What makes you think I should believe you or your church? Because you are adults? Should I believe any other church that tells me a similar fantasy? George Carlin was right. Religion is the greatest BS story ever told.

Do you think you have provided any proof that a rational logical scientific thinking person should accept? Scripture? You think that's proof? It is not. If it were, there would be no Muslims or Jews and I would not be an atheist.

I didn't miss your point, but you're talking apples to my oranges.

Let's try again. There are more than just physical experiences. There are physical experiences, imaginary experiences, dream experiences...and spiritual experiences. If I were to relate last night's dream experience to you, would you demand that I produce physical evidence that my dream was exactly as I described? The same with something imagined. If I described something I was imagining, would you demand proof that was actually the object I was imagining? Of course not! Dream and imaginary experiences are not physical experiences. Nor, would you doubt me if I were to tell you I had a dream and argue my dream experience was something I imagined.

Let's add one more non-physical experience: The spiritual experience. If I were to describe a spiritual experience to you, you would have no hesitation being all over my case saying you don't believe it, because I have no physical evidence. Although you are probably certain people know the difference between nighttime dream and imagination, you are equally certain people must not be able to distinguish between spiritual experience and dream (or imagination).

You're trying to use something you dreamed as evidence? OMG.

Ok, now lets go back to my example. Your child comes to you with all the crap you just came to me with. Are you going to believe their experience? Are you going to start a church based on your kids monster in the closet? How dare you not believe them. LOL.

And you say if us atheists don't believe you we won't go to heaven? Or we don't get it because we haven't opened our hearts and minds to the possibility? Oh pahleez.

So all of this is great for you explaining why YOU believe but nothing you have provided is any reason for the rest of us go to along. We will continue to wait until we experience this spiritual experience you claim to have experienced. Until then, I'm not going to worry about heaven and hell.

 

[sealybobo]

... I'm not sure I buy that. My x-wife was told by her Catholic priest, back in the 1960's, that her first child, who was born dead, could not be buried in hallowed ground, since it had not been baptised; and further, the child would spend eternity in purgatory, separated from my x-wife. She never stepped foot in a Catholic church again.

And where was the child buried instead if not on a graveyard?

I know this might be a shock to you, but not all graveyards are catholic cemeteries.

And, BTW, the same thing happened to a girl I used to date in high school. She killed herself, and had to be buried in a public cemetery, instead of the church cemetery.

The Catholic church refused to baptize the baby of a couple I knew because they conceived said child before they were married. They went and had her baptized a protestant instead. Lol.

It's so obvious that religion is a big business. If Nike loses your business you can just go to Adidas or Rebox. They are all shoes but each a little different.

Spin offs.

I didn't realize my religion was crap. I realized all religions are. I still think my Greek Orthodox religion is the best of all the lies but that doesn't mean it's good. It's still a lie.

 

[Meriweather]

Let me give you a great example of how stupid people are. The bible says you will not see a ghost of someone who died in your house or a long lost love one when you go see a Medium. You know that right? Well what percent of Americans believe in ghosts?

45 percent of Americans believe in ghosts, or that the spirits of dead people can come back in certain places and situations. That's pretty much half. How many of these people are Christians? I'd say a hell of a lot of them.

The Bible negates the idea that the spirits of deceased human beings can remain on earth and “haunt” the living.

Hebrews 9:27 declares, “Man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.” That is what happens to a person’s soul-spirit after death—judgment. The result of this judgment is heaven for the believer (2 Corinthians 5:6-8;Philippians 1:23) and hell for the unbeliever (Matthew 25:46;Luke 16:22-24). There is no in-between. There is no possibility of remaining on earth in spirit form as a “ghost.” If there are such things as ghosts, according to the Bible, they absolutely cannot be the disembodied spirits of deceased human beings.

This is yours (or someone's) interpretation of what might be concluded from scriptural proof-texts. They have formed a belief there are no ghosts and then go through scripture looking for text that supports their conclusions (totally ignoring the fact none of these texts were addressing a question about spirits or loved ones remaining on, or returning to, earth).

If you would like to present me the actual scripture that says addresses the possibility of ghosts/spirits on earth, please do so. The one that immediately comes to mind is Matthew's account says that after Christ's crucifixion, people saw some of their dead loved ones.

 

[Meriweather]

You're trying to use something you dreamed as evidence?

Please go back and re-read my post. I said if I had a dream you would not require physical evidence to believe that I had that specific dream. If I said I had a dream about a horse, would not insist I produce this dream horse in its physical form--otherwise you could only conclude I was dreaming about a cow.

And you say if us atheists don't believe you we won't go to heaven? Or we don't get it because we haven't opened our hearts and minds to the possibility? Oh pahleez.

I never said this. In fact, I said this is not what all of Christianity teaches--it's the teaching of a few, minority sects.