Atheists don't believe in God or gods but they have no alternative theories that make sense...

[edthecynic]

No, a repeatable experiment means it is PROVEN, and not a consensus.

Science doesn't do proof, it does evidence. When the evidence is sufficient a consensus is gained that is the best present knowledge, until better knowledge is garnered. Otherwise Newtonian physics would not only be useful but 'proven', whereas relativity and quantum physics 'disprove' them.

Repeatable experiments ARE proof!

 

[rightwinger]

Might as well be? So you don’t know. It might as well be Darth Vader and the Force. That is the point we don’t know. Even those with faith cannot agree.

It doesn't matter what you call the entity that caused the universe, it's still the same thing. Changing the name doesn't change the nature of what it is, the cause of the universe that is itself uncaused.

Of course it matters. How can you say it does not?

OK, if you want to call the uncaused cause of the universe "Darth Vader" you can do that. But you're not changing anything by calling it that.

Yes you are. You’re saying you don’t know and there is no proof of Adam and Eve or Mohammed, etc.

I'm not trying to prove the Biblical God, or a God of any religion believed in by any human. All I'm trying to prove is that there is something outside the universe that caused the universe. To believe otherwise is to believe the universe caused itself, which makes no sense.

Ah yes, that old dilemma

Who created that something outside the universe?
Did it create itself?

 

[rightwinger]

No, a repeatable experiment means it is PROVEN, and not a consensus.

Science doesn't do proof, it does evidence. When the evidence is sufficient a consensus is gained that is the best present knowledge, until better knowledge is garnered. Otherwise Newtonian physics would not only be useful but 'proven', whereas relativity and quantum physics 'disprove' them.

Repeatable experiments ARE proof!

Until someone can repeat God creating the universe, I really can’t believe it

 

[Skull Pilot]

...as to how the universe came to exist or how humans became aware of our own existence.

And I've tried to get answers from atheists, but none are forthcoming.

They do like to mock those of us who do believe in God or gods, as if somehow mockery can make up for lack of answers.

And I do anticipate that they will simply do that in this thread, mock and ridicule.

What makes you think there is an explanation that we mere humans are capable of understanding?

We do not understand 95% of the matter and energy we know exists in the universe and what about the matter and energy we don't know exists and haven't found or are incapable of finding?

You have to realize that we may be incapable of understanding the universe because our minds are unable to grasp the concepts much like a dog is incapable of understanding calculus

 

[Taz]

Likely re-incarnation. And still looking for the rest with and open mind. Seems fair to me. Agnostic.

And just because I'm still at the maybe stage and still looking, doesn't make obeying a book of fiction any less ludicrous.

 

[well named]

There are two possibilities.

The universe caused itself, or

The universe didn't cause itself.

What I'm stating is that the latter is more likely true.

And if that's true, then there is something ELSE, which is not the universe, that caused the universe.

And that something ELSE, whether it is a mind or just a mindless force, you might as well call it God.

Now, I'm saying nothing at all about the Biblical God, I'm just talking about whatever, or whoever, caused the universe.

Hi Blackrock, I skimmed this thread pretty fast so apologies if I'm just repeating something already said. Fort Fun Indiana has certainly touched on some of this, but:

Let's assume for the sake of argument that you are correct that it's more likely that the universe isn't self-causing.*

In that case, the logical structure of your argument is fine, but no matter how much you disclaim that you're not talking about the Biblical God, your argument is still doing the entirety of its work by saying that you "might as well call it God". But in fact it's not that reasonable to call some completely undefined and unknown cause of the universe "God," given the enormous weight of meaning we attach to that word. Choosing to call this source "God" is certain to obscure more than it reveals, because the source of the universe may have literally no properties in common with any common concept of a Deity. I can accept your argument and remain an atheist, for that reason.

For the same reasons, the problem with this style of cosmological argument is that it's basically vacuous, by which I mean that it doesn't really explain anything at all, there are no interesting conclusions that can be drawn from it. In your OP you implied that it was better in some sense to have some answer, no matter how unlikely, than to not know the answer, but I think this is wrong. If anything, it actually understates our ignorance. Not only do we not know whether the universe has a cause, we don't even know that it's really coherent to conceptualize something prior to reality, if we understand the universe to just mean the extent of what exists. What can exist before existence? If we instead make the universe a contingent phenomenon and define some prior cause of it, expanding the scope of reality to include both, we still haven't explained anything by doing so, because we just ask the same question over again: what caused the cause of the universe, or was it self-causing? Except now we have even less knowledge than we do from scientific cosmology. At this point proponents of the cosmological argument simply insert the idea that we can define God (or the cause of the universe) to be that which is self-causing, to prevent an infinite regress, but the vacuity of this argument is apparent simply from the fact that we could also just define the universe that way and the same argument applies.

My view is that in fact we almost certainly do just have to accept reality as a brute fact at some point, regardless of how scientifically complex our understanding of the cosmology gets (e.g. if we found convincing evidence for some theory of successive "universes". Penrose had an interesting one). But doing so doesn't really get you anywhere as far as an argument for a Deity, whether of the Christian variety or even one like that of Spinoza.

*But note for example that I think the most popular scientific speculation about the big bang posits that it was itself caused by properties of a vacuum in quantum mechanics, i.e. what is sometimes referred to as quantum foam. If that is true (and it's highly speculative of course) then in a very real sense the universe caused itself, although it still leaves the question about what caused those laws of physics, i.e. you are still left with the same issues described above.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Because living without real love, real faith and a nihilistic existence is a hateful one. I

No, that's idiotic, and I reject it. You have no right to say that I don't experience real love. And my experience is much better because I have no faith. So you go ahead and reserve your opinions for yourself. If you need faith to keep you from deadly despair, that's your problem, not mine.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

You cannot "create equal amounts" of that which cannot be created!!

Thank you for your authoritative declaration, shaman. Unfortunately, you cannot possibly know the truth of that.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

How would natural selection affect the 'laws of the universe'?

You are wasting your time.whatever you say he'll just go back and say that such thing was chosen randomly

 

[Likkmee]

Simple answer: pretty basic really. The rest of the assholes will vanish forever...FOREVER
John 3:16 - Wikipedia

 

[Likkmee]

Lemme toss another for giggles
1 Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.

2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.

3 Trust in the Lord, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed.

4 Delight thyself also in the Lord; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.

5 Commit thy way unto the Lord; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.

6 And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday.

7 Rest in the Lord, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass.

8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil.

9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth.

10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delightthemselves in the abundance of peace.

12 The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth.

13 The Lord shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.

14 The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.

15 Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.

16 A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked.

17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the Lordupholdeth the righteous.

18 The Lord knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.

19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.

20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

21 The wicked borroweth, and payeth not again: but the righteous sheweth mercy, and giveth.

22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.

23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord: and he delighteth in his way.

24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the Lordupholdeth him with his hand.

25 I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.

26 He is ever merciful, and lendeth; and his seed is blessed.

27 Depart from evil, and do good; and dwell for evermore.

28 For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

29 The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.

30 The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment.

31 The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.

32 The wicked watcheth the righteous, and seeketh to slay him.

33 The Lord will not leave him in his hand, nor condemn him when he is judged.

34 Wait on the Lord, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.

35 I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree.

36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.

37 Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace.

38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.

39 But the salvation of the righteous is of the Lord: he is their strength in the time of trouble.

40 And the Lord shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him.

 

[forkup]

...as to how the universe came to exist or how humans became aware of our own existence.

And I've tried to get answers from atheists, but none are forthcoming.

They do like to mock those of us who do believe in God or gods, as if somehow mockery can make up for lack of answers.

And I do anticipate that they will simply do that in this thread, mock and ridicule.

In science, "I don't know", is a perfectly acceptable answer. It's not atheists fault that you rather be lied to by people who claim they do know something without ANY information to back up that claim.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Lemme toss another for giggles
1 Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.

2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.

3 Trust in the Lord, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed.

4 Delight thyself also in the Lord; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.

5 Commit thy way unto the Lord; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.

6 And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday.

7 Rest in the Lord, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass.

8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil.

9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth.

10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delightthemselves in the abundance of peace.

12 The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth.

13 The Lord shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.

14 The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.

15 Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.

16 A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked.

17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the Lordupholdeth the righteous.

18 The Lord knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.

19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.

20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

21 The wicked borroweth, and payeth not again: but the righteous sheweth mercy, and giveth.

22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.

23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord: and he delighteth in his way.

24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the Lordupholdeth him with his hand.

25 I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.

26 He is ever merciful, and lendeth; and his seed is blessed.

27 Depart from evil, and do good; and dwell for evermore.

28 For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

29 The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.

30 The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment.

31 The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.

32 The wicked watcheth the righteous, and seeketh to slay him.

33 The Lord will not leave him in his hand, nor condemn him when he is judged.

34 Wait on the Lord, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.

35 I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree.

36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.

37 Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace.

38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.

39 But the salvation of the righteous is of the Lord: he is their strength in the time of trouble.

40 And the Lord shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him.

Your voodoo chants don't hold any sway, here.

 

[Tumblin Tumbleweed]

...as to how the universe came to exist or how humans became aware of our own existence.

I don't know. A definitive answer has yet to be discovered. Also, the question isn't terribly important to me.

And I've tried to get answers from atheists, but none are forthcoming.

In my experience, theists aren't receptive to contemplating alternatives to their omnipotent sky daddy philosophies, so I don't bother engaging anymore.

And I do anticipate that they will simply do that in this thread, mock and ridicule.

Seems a silly reason to create a thread, then. Glutton for punishment?

 

[Taz]

Lemme toss another for giggles
1 Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.

2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.

3 Trust in the Lord, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed.

4 Delight thyself also in the Lord; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.

5 Commit thy way unto the Lord; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.

6 And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday.

7 Rest in the Lord, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass.

8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil.

9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth.

10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delightthemselves in the abundance of peace.

12 The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth.

13 The Lord shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.

14 The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.

15 Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.

16 A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked.

17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the Lordupholdeth the righteous.

18 The Lord knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.

19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.

20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

21 The wicked borroweth, and payeth not again: but the righteous sheweth mercy, and giveth.

22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.

23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord: and he delighteth in his way.

24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the Lordupholdeth him with his hand.

25 I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.

26 He is ever merciful, and lendeth; and his seed is blessed.

27 Depart from evil, and do good; and dwell for evermore.

28 For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

29 The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.

30 The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment.

31 The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.

32 The wicked watcheth the righteous, and seeketh to slay him.

33 The Lord will not leave him in his hand, nor condemn him when he is judged.

34 Wait on the Lord, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.

35 I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree.

36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.

37 Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace.

38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.

39 But the salvation of the righteous is of the Lord: he is their strength in the time of trouble.

40 And the Lord shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him.

Are you a hobelim sock?

 

[edthecynic]

You cannot "create equal amounts" of that which cannot be created!!

Thank you for your authoritative declaration, shaman. Unfortunately, you cannot possibly know the truth of that.

The truth of it is self evident!
Energy cannot be created therefore you cannot create equal amounts of energy, or unequal amounts of energy for that matter!

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Energy cannot be created therefore you cannot create equal amounts of energy, or unequal amounts of energy for that matter!

Sure you can, when the result is still zero energy. You just create energy and negative energy, in equal parts.

 

[edthecynic]

Energy cannot be created therefore you cannot create equal amounts of energy, or unequal amounts of energy for that matter!

Sure you can, when the result is still zero energy. You just create energy and negative energy, in equal parts.

The PROVEN First Law of Thermodynamics says energy can neither be created nor destroyed, therefore you can't create energy in any parts!

 

[MisterBeale]

Because living without real love, real faith and a nihilistic existence is a hateful one. I

No, that's idiotic, and I reject it. You have no right to say that I don't experience real love. And my experience is much better because I have no faith. So you go ahead and reserve your opinions for yourself. If you need faith to keep you from deadly despair, that's your problem, not mine.

I'd just prefer not to have to pop a pill every day to make it through living.

I'm pretty sure you have to take soma to make it through your day.

So, what is your prescription? Is it worth it?

One in 6 Americans take antidepressants, other psychiatric drugs

 

[Taz]

Because living without real love, real faith and a nihilistic existence is a hateful one. I

No, that's idiotic, and I reject it. You have no right to say that I don't experience real love. And my experience is much better because I have no faith. So you go ahead and reserve your opinions for yourself. If you need faith to keep you from deadly despair, that's your problem, not mine.

I'd just prefer not to have to pop a pill every day to make it through living.

I'm pretty sure you have to take soma to make it through your day.

So, what is your prescription? Is it worth it?

One in 6 Americans take antidepressants, other psychiatric drugs

So you're saying that religion is your drug. Frankly, I'd rather smoke weed.